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Amina Srna: It's the Brian Lehrer Show. I'm producer Amina Srna filling in for Brian today. Now let's check back in on the ongoing struggles at Rikers Island. The latest news is that the federal judge overseeing the jail complex has appointed a former CIA officer who ran Vermont's prison system as the so called remediation manager for Rikers. He will report to the judge and be in charge. To explain what this means for the city, the corrections officers and the people being held in jail, I'm joined now by Reuven Blau, a reporter for the news organization The City who covers criminal justice and the city's prison system. We'll also touch on where things stand with plans to shut down Rikers in favor for smaller jails in the boroughs. Welcome back to WNYC, Reuven.

Reuven Blau: Thanks for having me.

Amina Srna: Who is this new remediation manager? When does he take over?

Reuven Blau: His name is Nicholas Deml and he's actually a former CIA officer as well. He has spent the last four years heading the Vermont jail and prison system. When he takes over it remains up in the air. The judge has ordered him to come up with a plan outlining his salary, his team and his start date, and the judge has given him 21 days to submit that plan.

Amina Srna: Reuven, at the risk of revealing too much about myself, I did grow up in Vermont. Vermont is very small compared to Rikers. Can you talk a little bit more about why this person is qualified to take over Rikers?

Reuven Blau: It's a great question. Grew up in Colorado myself, so a little bigger than there though.

Amina Srna: Yes, that's right.

Reuven Blau: It's a system of roughly 1,600 people at any given time. According to the state figures, that includes about 1,100 people serving sentences and roughly 500 held in pre-trial detention. When you look at the comparison to New York City, there's roughly about 7,000 on Rikers right now and there's about 8 to 10 jails that are being used at any given time, so it's almost like essentially asking somebody who was in charge of one or two jails on Rikers to take over the whole system.

It's a good question. I think it's going to be a big test. We've seen this before where under former mayor Bill de Blasio, he appointed Joseph Ponte, who was in charge of the system in Maine to come in, and right away, the union questioned that. It was saying that this is somebody who doesn't have the experience to handle this many people and a system of the size in New York City. That actually turned out to be somewhat prophetic. He had a really rocky tenure in charge of this Rikers system.

It remains to be seen how someone in charge of a smaller place could come in. In his defense, I will say that Rikers is unique. There's so few places that are this size. It's arguably, I think, one of the biggest in the country.

Amina Srna: Can you remind us again why a federal judge and not Mayor Mamdani is in charge of Rikers and appointing someone to run it? It goes back to a class action lawsuit, right?

Reuven Blau: Absolutely. It's been an ongoing saga for over 10 years where there was a class action lawsuit filed on behalf of a group of adolescent detainees who alleged serious abuses. Actually the federal Southern District of New York, as well, came in and supported this move. Essentially, there's been a monitor, somebody who has been writing reports every few months making recommendations and changes and highlighting how those are working. In this case, it hasn't worked. There's this monitoring charge for about 10 years and repeatedly writing these reports that have not moved the needle in reforming the situation there.

There's been a huge move and outcry to change things and to have someone who can come in and essentially have more power than a traditional DOC commissioner to make suggested changes. The power really is unclear exactly how much he will end up using that, but it goes as far as potentially making changes to collective bargaining agreements that have been negotiated with the three unions that represent officers on the island.

Amina Srna: Listeners, we can take some of your calls on this. Are you a stakeholder in reforming Rikers Island as an attorney, someone who's been incarcerated or visited friends or family there, a corrections officer? Are you encouraged by this step being taken and this appointment, or do you have a question for my guest, Reuven Blau of The City news organization? Call or text us at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. There was already a federal monitor assigned to the jail, but the city didn't make enough improvements, and so now there's Nicholas Deml.

Reuven Blau: Exactly. It's a bit confusing. Also one of the things I also want to clarify for listeners is something that former Eric Adams was arguing. He made the argument he was very opposed to this step. He would say, "Why do we want the federal government to take over Rikers Island? Look at how they do with the Federal Bureau of Prisons, where there have been issues where the federal lockups are notoriously terrible."

I think that's really not happening. Just to clarify, that's not what is happening here. The federal BOP or Bureau of Prisons is not taking over Rikers Island. It's the federal judge. Her name is Laura Swain, and she is ultimately making the decision that there is a need for a, for lack of a better term, new sheriff in town with more power to do something. For years and decades, there's been a New York City DOC commissioner, Department of Correction commissioner, and all of them arguably have come in with good intentions to make major improvements and reforms. History has shown that none of them have been able to fully improve the situation.

They've made incremental reforms and changes in different areas, but overwhelmingly, overall, the jails have been, as Mayor Mamdani says, a stain on the city of New York. I think that's-- people who serve there, people that work there would probably largely agree to that assessment.

There becomes a question also now of who is going to be ultimately in charge. Is it the mayor? Is it this federal monitor who has been overseeing department for about 10 years? His name is Steve Martin, he's located in Texas. Is it going to be Nicholas Deml, who's now the remediation manager? Is it going to be a DOC commissioner who hasn't been appointed yet by Mayor Mamdani? That is the outstanding issue.

When you ask people to support this plan, they will say that ultimately there's going to be a consensus that these people are all going to have to get in a room and make decisions as a group.

Amina Srna: Do we know what Deml's role will be?

Reuven Blau: It really remains to be fleshed out, and that's really the million-dollar question. Ultimately, he is going to have incredible amount power, more power than any DOC commissioner has ever had in the history of the city of New York. This is an incredible moment in the city's jail system and potentially reforming, making major changes. It's unclear how much he flexes, how much power he ends up using, how much power he feels that there needs to be used, what his budget's going to look like.

There is a monitor in California who is in charge of medical care. Ultimately, the judge had to change the person after a few years because the budget was just going so out of control and they weren't getting enough changes happening.

Really, time will tell on how this works, but ultimately he has to work with people and structures that are in place, at the same time changing those structures. It's a real unknown, but it's also this incredible moment in the system and what could potentially happen here.

Amina Srna: Listeners, we can take a few of your comments or questions for Reuven Blau of The City. Call or text us at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. Maybe you have a question about the plans to shut down Rikers and build borough-based jails, which we'll get to in a bit. Give us a call, 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. Reuven, we started talking about Mayor Mamdani, but what will his responsibility be?

Reuven Blau: The city is always going to play a role. They have to work out the budget with the monitor. We asked him shortly before he was elected what his position is on this, and he is embracing the monitor-- not the monitor, sorry, the remediation manager. He's embracing this and saying that there needs to be somebody to come in and take charge here in a different way.

It's a very different change, it's very different approach than former Mayor Eric Adams, who was opposing every step of the way and he's saying essentially, "Hey, this is the person who's going to be selected." It seems like he's going to ultimately lead the department. Does he need the mayor's approval? No. He can do things on his own without going to the mayor or the deputy mayor.

I imagine that there's going to be conversations and that they're going to try to get some type of agreement. The judge has made it very clear that that's how she wants this to work where everybody comes to an agreement. That seems possible now with the new mayor and new leadership in City Hall.

Amina Srna: There's no plan to appeal this appointment?

Reuven Blau: Not right now. No, they are embracing it. They are totally embracing this and saying, "Hey, look, we agree that something new needs to be tried here." There is nothing on the docket, at least right now, to appeal it. That's different than other places. One of the examples that somebody told me when I was researching this issue in other places, and there's not that many out there that-- systems that have had this, but again, similarly, in California, at one point during the pandemic, the receiver- and that's the term that they use there, and here it's the remediation manager, but the receiver requires staff to be vaccinated.

The union was very upset and sued in court. It ultimately dragged out for about a year, and then ultimately, after multiple court rulings, the receiver won out. Ultimately they agreed that there needs to be a vaccine requirement. That doesn't seem to be the case here at least in the next four years, or at least initially, right now. The City Hall is saying, "We embrace this and we are going to support this." Not to say that if Deml makes a decision that somehow upsets them they have the opportunity to appeal it in court, go to back in the court and battle it out there, but it seems, at least from the start, that they are trying to get on the same page.

Amina Srna: The mayor signed an executive order soon after taking office to try and seek compliance with the ban on the use of solitary confinement that was passed by the City Council. Will that be up to Deml?

Reuven Blau: Ultimately, yes. It's a complicated situation. There's also multiple moving pieces with that. The mayor ordered his DOC commissioner, who is the previous the DOC commissioner under Eric Adams, to come up with a plan within 45 days. That is going to actually happen. That plan is going to be submitted before Deml takes over. The initial step of this is going to happen before he's appointed, before he's in charge or gets into the job, but I imagine that that they're consulting with him already about what that plan would look like, how that might actually come together.

It's an ongoing saga. There's multiple pieces in Rikers, and this is part of the problem and why it's been so difficult to correct some major, major abuses there. This is another thing. It's been going on for years and years and years. Layleen Polanco passed away. She was a transgender woman who was in solitary confinement, had a seizure condition. She died in solitary confinement, and it really spurred this movement to eliminate or drastically reduce the use of solitary confinement. Former mayor, de Blasio, supported it and then ultimately didn't follow through, ordered them to change the rules, but then ultimately, signed an executive order, similarly putting those rules on hold.

Ultimately, the City Council came through and passed the bill, but again, several years in the making, and then ultimately, Mayor Eric Adams came in and said, "I can't do this right now. We're in a crisis situation." Every five days like clockwork, he signed an executive order saying, "We can't do these new rules in solitary confinement, restricting their use.

I should explain to listeners as well, one of the big things people feel or say about this is, "If somebody slashes someone else in jail, they should be moved away and put in solitary confinement, ultimately."

That's really not best practice. Ultimately, yes, there needs to be a level of separation, but the plan calls for something called de-escalation units, additional programming, additional instruction. The idea is that you don't throw someone away into a solitary cell for months or weeks on end because research has shown that that is incredibly damaging and ultimately causes more problems when a person's released, especially if you're younger. Studies have shown, and the UN has ruled, that that's a form of torture.

Amina Srna: We're getting a text. Listener writes, "This new commissioner comes from Vermont, where they have the highest incarceration rate of African Americans in the country, proportionate to its 1.2% African American population." I did not see this specifically in your reporting, but I wonder-- the listener asks, how did he deal with this in Vermont? Did that come up at all in your research?

Reuven Blau: That's a great question. I don't know. I'm not sure that racial breakdown-- I will say that when confronted with those stats, generally, DOC commissioners say, "Look, I deal with people that are put in my system. I'm not the one running the police department. I can't dictate who comes into the system necessarily." That being said, they do have a tremendous amount of power to push some type of early release or programs or alternative to incarceration.

I'm not sure what he did there on that level, but he does have an incredible reputation. I was able to do a little bit of research yesterday after the announcement. I talked to some people who have worked with him. Just an incredible reputation as being transparent and trying to work with staff as well as detainees to increase programming and different peer programming that they had for people suffering from substance abuse issues.

It was almost shocking to hear. I talked to somebody who works in a public defenders group, and he said that he had worked with five previous commissioners, and they were skeptical when he was appointed. He was a CIA officer without any Correction Commission experience. There was a real skepticism, and they were surprised that he was incredibly- the way they described it was incredibly transparent, worked with them, and was very generous as far as giving them data and information to suss out if there was issues especially in death reviews. It was really surprising to hear how positive they were about his tenure there.

Amina Srna: What about the corrections officers union? Will Deml have the power to change the work rules there?

Reuven Blau: The shorter answer is yes. The longer answer is, does he do it? What rules does he change? It remains to be seen. There have been questions about the disciplinary system, how that works and doesn't work really. They've been trying to change that system for at least a decade now. It's unclear if he makes a move to do that. Really, in New York City, those contracts are sacrosanct. A lot of the benefits they have, have been negotiated because they've given up certain things, they made certain concessions to get to where they are in these work protections. I think it's a very, very touchy situation.

One thing that could be pretty telling is the federal monitor, Steve Martin who's been in place for about a decade, has suggested making some changes to the work rules, to scheduling, how officers come in, the different schedules that they take, and that might be potentially on the table. It's difficult for me to see him coming in right away making those changes. It's difficult for me to see him making those changes without offering a proverbial carrot of some type of benefit or additional something to offset some type of change like that.

Amina Srna: You read that the judge wants everyone, the union, the City Department of Corrections, the monitor and the remediation manager to reach consensus, but is it clear who gets the final say?

Reuven Blau: It seems at this point that, ultimately, Nicholas Deml will have the final say, especially on the larger issues, but it's a little bit unclear. I think there's an obvious scenario where maybe somebody-- there's an incident where officers use force to restrain a detainee and there's some controversy about the level of force that was used. There is a potential scenario where the federal monitor, Steve Martin, says something, the DOC commissioner says another thing, Nicholas Deml says another thing, and ultimately, the mayor says something as well. There's a possibility that you have four different people with different takes on what should be done in that instance.

I think that is much more likely under a mayor who's opposing this appointment. I think it's less likely to happen at this point where there's more support for this position, but it's still a scenario. These things are not-- they're not black and white.

Amina Srna: A listener texts, "I've not heard what the qualifications of this candidate are. Why is his reputation such that he's been recommended for this particularly difficult task?" Reuven, I'll just add a question onto that, which is what has the reaction been from people with a stake in what happens at Rikers? I know we received a press release from Legal Aid applauding the appointment. Any way that you want to take those two questions.

Reuven Blau: He's young. He's 38 years old, relatively young, I feel like saying that at this point. Seven years in the CIA. He worked briefly in Congress for-- I forgot who, but a congressman, he's a lawyer, and then seven years in the CIA, and then he worked for four years in Vermont. He's part of some national correction association groups as well.

This is arguably the most premier correction job in the country because it is a [unintelligible 00:19:43] or a revision gig where this person has incredible power, power that has never previously existed in the history of the DOC as commissioners go. It's an incredible job. It's an incredible opportunity. His experience, arguably, is somewhat limited. It's four years of correction experience in Vermont.

Amina Srna: A listener asks, "Has your guest looked into the reception by prisoners rights groups?"

Reuven Blau: Yes. So far it's positive. I think this has just been a long time coming. The judge made this announcement seven months ago that she was going to make this appointment, that they were going to bring in a remediation manager, and it's been seven months of really bad news out of Rikers since then. There's been multiple deaths. There's been reports about these deaths. One person who died had been to the hospital, Bellevue, 45 times. He was held on a robbery charge and he was clearly dealing with a terminal illness. Another person who passed was found with over 100 pills in his cell.

There's been really horrific things that have happened in the past seven months, and the judge has really, frankly, taken some time to make this decision. I think by all accounts, it seems like it's waiting till after the mayor election. The initial reaction has been positive, where they're really happy that this is finally coming together. I think anyone who's closely observed the situation at Rikers is cautiously optimistic.

Amina Srna: This is all on top of the fact that by law, Rikers is supposed to be closed by August next year in 2027. That was the plan to open smaller jails in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx. Not surprisingly, there's been local community resistance to the new jails. Would you say, especially in Manhattan?

Reuven Blau: That's been really one of the biggest flashpoints. Recently now, the opposition to the jail being built there on White Street, they've come out and said, "Hey, we have an alternate plan. The federal prison where Jeffrey Epstein was held and took his own life, why don't you convert that into the new city jail?" Their argument is, "It's already a jail. It's already a prison. It's easier to knock down."

The idea that they're even proposing in a serious manner is difficult to fully grasp because anybody would understand that it would literally take another 5 to 10 years to make that happen. They'd have to go back to the drawing board, do new designs, while at the same time, they've literally already demolished the jail in Manhattan.

The plan is happening. There is just serious opposition. There's been a lot of lawsuits filed back and forth, but there's also serious concern. They just announced last week, they had a Zoom meeting with members of the community, that they're going to start construction and it's going to take six years, which is tremendous amount of time. I don't know if you've been down there or if people have been down there. It's right next to actually another-- a residential area. I think it's designated for seniors. I'm not sure it's totally seniors, but it's just next door. It's right next to that.

That's a lot of noise. Construction is supposed to start at 6:00 AM. They're supposed to allow the vehicles to come into the area. The city's saying they're taking incredible steps to minimize the noise but it's been going on in Brooklyn. That area has already started construction. The neighborhood has been really frustrated with the noise there as well. It's not an easy thing to do in very tight quarters.

I should add that whatever the opposition is to this, and understandably, it's geographically speaking, they've actually told me, "Look, we don't think that Rikers shouldn't shut down. We believe that there is a need for new jails." On the broader front, people who are opposed to this plan-- It is an expensive plan. I think it's gone from $10 billion to at least $15 billion, $17 billion plan. It's just a very, very expensive plan. The one issue that no one ever really addresses is that it's very difficult currently to bring people from Rikers to the courts. Ultimately, the DAs use that to essentially force people to plead out because it's so frustrating and difficult to come back and forth to your court hearings.

Amina Srna: Wait, Reuven, can you tell us just a little bit more about that and people who don't necessarily know a lot about Rikers Island? Why is it so difficult?

Reuven Blau: Absolutely. I'll actually take this minute, for a minute, to [unintelligible 00:24:28] me and a co-author. We've written a book, Rikers: An Oral History that came out a couple years ago. There's literally almost a chapter about this. It's something internally, colloquially called bullpen therapy, which essentially, because Rikers is on an island and it's one bridge away to get out of there, it just takes a lot of time to get to the different courthouses and the different boroughs.

The way the system works is they'll wake you up at 3:00, 4:00, 5:00 in the morning and they'll drag you to court and you'll get one sandwich in a day. You'll likely miss dinner when you come back and you're just sitting there in a bullpen all day. When I did research for the book, when we were interviewing people, I frequently asked them, I said, "What was the worst part of being locked up?" I assumed they'd say, "The threat of violence, the food, no medical care."

Shocked to hear, almost unanimously, people who had been there all said it was this. It was this history, this pattern of bullpen therapy where you have to get dragged back and forth to court. A lot of times the court case is adjudicated within minutes, it's just a technical hearing and nothing really happens, but your entire day is just beyond demoralizing, soul-sucking process. Ultimately a lot of people, what happens is they don't want to do it over and over again because they just get so tired of going through that process, so they just feel it's easier and better to plead their case out to either begin a sentence or just take whatever's being offered.

Amina Srna: All right, last question. What are you watching for next?

Reuven Blau: That's a great question. My editor was asking me this question earlier this morning.

Amina Srna: We're not in cahoots, I promise.

Reuven Blau: I think it's going to be really fascinating to see how Nicholas Deml works with others around him, works with the union that has had incredible power and obviously, was working for the members who have a very difficult job, how he navigates these waters.

I will add, I think the other thing I'm looking for is-- it's an incredibly challenging job to do. How do you deal with the 50% of the people there who have serious mental illness. What is the answer to that? I'd like to see how he and the city and the state try to tackle that problem.

Amina Srna: We'll leave it there for today. Reuven Blau is a reporter for the news organization The City, who covers criminal justice and the city's prison system. Thank you so much for your time today.

Reuven Blau: Thanks for having me.

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