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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. For the rest of the show, we're going to talk about immigration news. There's always so much immigration news these days, but two things in particular for today. One, as ICE ramps up raids and arrests in New York City as well as across the country, we're going to talk about what's going on at what they call a holding cell down at 26 Federal Plaza in Lower Manhattan. We'll get into details and why we're talking about that in particular. In a little while, we're going to have an immigration lawyer to talk about the end of temporary protected status for so many people in the New York City area, and that immigration lawyer will answer questions if you have them. This implies imminent deportation for people from multiple countries that have pretty large communities in the New York area. We're going to take that on.

First, we're joined by Arya Sundaram, WNYC and Gothamist [unintelligible 00:01:11] who covers race and immigration here. Her most recent reporting brings us into the federal holding rooms at 26 Federal Plaza, where immigrants are brought after ICE apprehension. Now, these holding rooms are supposed to be used for temporary detention, but advocates have sounded an alarm on what they describe as extended stays, some lasting as many as 10 days at a time in what they're describing as inhumane conditions.

She's spoken with immigrants, Arya has, who say they've experienced these conditions firsthand, so the reporting is based largely on that, as well as speaking with loved ones and lawyers of those detained. The extra wrinkle here is that members of Congress are being denied access to inspect the facility themselves. We will talk about that, too. Arya, good to have you. Welcome back to the show.

Arya Sundaram: Thanks for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: First, take listeners to 26 Federal Plaza and these holding cells. I assume if they're not letting members of Congress in to see for themselves, they didn't let you. Is that correct? Without having that being the case, what can you tell us about what these are, what they look like?

Arya Sundaram: Sure. You go to the 10th floor of this building, 26 Federal Plaza, which is just a federal office building. It houses federal prosecutors, the Environmental Protection Agency, immigration courts that have been the subject of a lot of attention lately, and it's just steps away from state and federal courthouses and the City Hall. You go up to the 10th floor and this is where you are told that you're not allowed entry past a certain point, basically. This is where the holding rooms are for ICE detention.

Exactly what you said, Congress members, I'm not allowed to visit this area, but what I'm hearing from immigrants who've been detained inside is that there's no showers or changing clothes. They sometimes only get one meal per day. Sometimes it's quite overcrowded. There's no beds, sleeping on benches, the floor, sitting up due to lack of space, for multiple days at a time. Also I've heard concerns about lack of medical help as well.

Brian Lehrer: You did include a quote in your piece from a statement put out by the Department of Homeland Security, their Assistant Secretary, Tricia McLaughlin, who said, "26 Federal Plaza is not a detention center. It is a federal building with an ICE law enforcement office inside it." I'm still confused. Are these prison-cell-like rooms or more similar to, I don't know, the waiting area at the DMV?

Arya Sundaram: The people I've spoken to have described them more like medium sized office or conference rooms. One man that I talked to said it was about 5 by 10 meters, so about 16 by 33 feet, and that there was a massive thick glass pane separating the detainees from the officers. There's no furniture, it's just concrete benches and the floor, really. Imagine just office spaces in a otherwise federal office building.

Brian Lehrer: Was it used for immigrant detention before this Trump administration?

Arya Sundaram: Yes. I have to be careful about my words here because ICE doesn't consider this a detention center. They call it a processing center, which is an important distinction. It's why they say Congress members can't inspect the area. My understanding, according to immigration lawyers that I spoke to, is that this used to be a place where immigrants were held for usually just a few hours before being transferred to a more permanent, more resourced detention center. They haven't seen it like this, where people are staying there for multiple days at a time. Actually people aren't supposed to be held there for longer than 12 hours according to ICE's own detention standards.

Brian Lehrer: Yet your reporting is that they're being held in some cases for up to 10 days. Were you able to confirm it? Who's telling you that?

Arya Sundaram: Right. This is immigration lawyers who say in one case, this is one exceptional example where, based on ICE's detaining tracking system, they suspect that one woman named Jocelyn was held there for about 10 days. Several days is not out of the ordinary at this point, is what I'm hearing. I talked to a man who said that he was held there for six days. Another man's wife said he was held there for four to five days. This is right after the ICE field office director, William Joyce, spoke to Congressman Goldman and Nadler in a hallway there and said that claims that people were being held for a week were an exaggeration at that time.

Brian Lehrer: You've also reported on overcrowding at the facility. What's the official max occupancy, if you know?

Arya Sundaram: Great question. It's unclear. I haven't gotten a floor plan yet. I've requested it. We haven't gotten confirmation from ICE about how many people are in there, but my understanding is it's in the dozens. You have to imagine the number fluctuates as people go in and out. One man told me he was in there with about 60 other people. Another said it went from 30 to 100 people over the 6 days he was there. At the very least, what we do know is that-

Brian Lehrer: In one room.

Arya Sundaram: Yes, in one room, that the man said was about 5 by 10 meters. The field office director said that the center was at least approaching capacity, and this was last month.

Brian Lehrer: Given that these holding rooms are not meant for overnight stays, can you describe the sleeping conditions for migrants in detention, I know they don't call it detention, in Lower Manhattan.

Arya Sundaram: Right. There's no beds.

Brian Lehrer: Are there beds? No beds?

Arya Sundaram: No beds. People say they sleep on concrete benches or the floor, sometimes sitting up because of lack of space.

Brian Lehrer: How about the hygiene complaints that you reported on? Give us an example.

Arya Sundaram: Sure. People say that they're not able to bathe or change clothes and they're forced to use a bathroom with pretty little privacy that's just attached to this pretty-- what I'm hearing is an overcrowded room.

Brian Lehrer: How do these conditions that you're describing compare with other short and long term facilities across the country, if you know?

Arya Sundaram: Sure. There have been reports of similar conditions at similar processing centers across the country and broader overcrowding concerns at facilities of all kinds. Just to give you some examples of these other processing centers that have been under fire, there was a lawsuit recently filed in California alleging that ICE is holding immigrants in another processing center basement in Downtown Los Angeles that they describe as dungeon-like. Another lawsuit was filed in May over conditions at similar holding cells at a federal building in Baltimore. These lawsuits are alleging lack of food, medical care, access to legal counsel and overcrowded conditions just like this site at 26 Federal Plaza.

Brian Lehrer: I wonder if there are any listeners right now who have experience with this holding room at 26 Federal Plaza, either yourself or someone in your family or someone in your neighborhood, or maybe you're a lawyer representing some of the migrants who've been held there. You can call and help Arya report this story for WNYC and Gothamist, 212-433-WNYC, for just the next few minutes before we go to our next segment, 212-433-WNYC-433-9692. Call or text.

I want to let listeners in on a little behind-the-scenes booking adventure for this segment that we're in the middle of. Congressman Adriano Espaillat from upper Manhattan and parts of the Bronx is among the members of the New York City congressional delegation who've been trying to inspect this holding room and have been denied access. He was willing to come on this segment, talk about those efforts and what he's been able to learn and the whole idea of a member of Congress not being able to inspect a federal government holding room.

We are told now that Congressman Espaillat is down there at the moment trying to get in once again. I gather that once you enter 26 Federal Plaza, you don't have your cell phone. They take your cell phone. That's for anybody who goes in there, and so we may or may not have Congressman Espaillat actually join us. Maybe what you can do, Arya, in the meantime, while we're seeing if he finishes what he's doing down there in enough time to join this segment, talk about that aspect of the story, members of Congress from New York City attempting and being denied the ability to inspect.

Arya Sundaram: Sure. Just a quick thing, I've been able to have my phone while I'm at 26 Federal Plaza. I'm wondering if Congressmember Espaillat maybe is in a more secluded area. Either way, he, Representative Nydia Velázquez, Dan Goldman, Jerry Nadler, they all went to 26 Federal Plaza and were all denied entry to these holding rooms. Members of Congress, just to give some background here, are legally entitled to inspect ICE detention facilities, they can show up unannounced if they want to, but ICE officials are arguing that, like I said, this isn't a detention center.

Joyce, the field office director, said in his meeting with Goldman and Nadler that it's a processing center and so it's off limits to Congress members. Nadler said that he'd consider suing if they're denied entry again. It's really been a place of a lot of attention and scrutiny. Part of the reason that these Congress members came in the first place was because of rumors swirling around about the conditions there.

Brian Lehrer: Listener writes in a text message, "One room without gender separation, any privacy for bathroom purposes, any access to feminine hygiene products?" Do you know the answers to that listener's questions?

Arya Sundaram: Sure. My understanding is that there are separate rooms for people of different genders. I don't know how many rooms there are. That's the question that I still have. Feminine hygiene products, I'm not sure yet, because I haven't actually been able to talk to any women who are detained. Listeners, if you know any women who've been detained, that would be wonderful. I would love to talk with them.

Brian Lehrer: One of the cases you cite in your article claims that immigrants in detention aren't receiving adequate meals. Give us the details behind this assertion.

Arya Sundaram: Sure. What I'm hearing is that sometimes they're receiving maybe just two meals a day. ICE standards require that people held at holding sites like this are provided a meal every six hours. Sometimes it's beans. I was told by one man, pasta, beef stew, but sometimes it's just a chocolate bar and a cookie, is what I'm hearing.

Brian Lehrer: Here's an interesting text. Listener writes, "I went to an ICE witness training in Nassau County yesterday offered by the New Sanctuary Coalition." Listener writes, "Have your church or organization sign up for training," and adds, "Because we are church-affiliated, we are 'faith-based support' which is allowed to visit detainees." Any awareness of that and whether, even if members of Congress aren't being allowed in, some people who are deemed faith-based support are?

Arya Sundaram: Certainly not to the holding rooms. Something I do know is happening is, at immigration court check-ins, there's been this real movement among a number of people, organizations, mutual aid groups to observe these court hearings and to accompany people who have them, who might be scared of going, because as we've been reporting, as you've been talking about, ICE has been increasingly arresting people after they have their immigration court check-ins. I do know that there have been a number of faith-based groups and others who have decided to accompany people through this process.

Brian Lehrer: Has there been a federal response to reports of inhumane conditions at this facility?

Arya Sundaram: Certainly, Congress members have tried to visit the facility, like I said, and were denied entry. They might sue. We'll see. With regards to ICE's response, DHS, the parent agency for ICE, the Department of Homeland Security, has just denied these allegations in their entirety, saying that people do receive proper meals, people are having access to talk to their legal counsel, which is something that I've heard has been an issue there, people are receiving proper medical care. They're just totally denying the allegations, even though we're hearing this from several people at this point and in court papers, mind you.

Brian Lehrer: I guess part of the context is they're detaining so many people so quickly that they don't have the space that's been designated in the past for the previous rates of-- I know you say it's not, technically, ICE detention, it's a holding room. There's another word for it. They're taking in immigrants for deportation proceedings at such a rate now that they don't have the space that they did in the past per detainee. Is this why this is happening?

Arya Sundaram: That's certainly one hypothesis and something I've been considering as I've been reporting this out, one possible answer for the overcrowding here, being the larger detention capacity issue at ICE right now. Just to put some numbers to that, at the end of June, there were nearly 58,000 people who were being held in ICE detention centers, and that's way above the agency's current detention capacity of 41,000 beds.

Brian Lehrer: Well, guess what, Arya. Joining us now for a couple of minutes in addition to you is Congressmember Adriano Espaillat. Congressmember, you're on WNYC. Hey there. Thank you for calling in. Are you at 26 Federal Plaza right now?

Congressmember Adriano Espaillat: No, we just left. Congresswoman Nydia Velázquez and I were there at 9:30 this morning. We were able to get to the 10th floor, but however, we were not able to penetrate into the detention areas. We will continue to go back. They refused to let us in. In the process, we saw somebody being taken in, shackled, and two masked ICE agents escorting the man, a Latino man. We were able to get his name and we'll follow up on his status.

We then went to one of the courtrooms where we saw another immigrant that had a court date. He was allowed to be released by the judge. He was there on a regularly-scheduled court day. The judge told him that he needed to get an attorney, however, he was petrified. He was really terrorized that they will arrest him as ICE agents were outside, pacing outside in the hallways. We were able to escort him downstairs and out the building.

I might add, Brian, that this is where a lot of the stuff is happening in the courtrooms. This is where the ICE agents are there, masked ICE agents are there, lurking around the hallways, ready just to take somebody in.

Brian Lehrer: What are you looking for in your attempt to go inside? What specifically would you be trying to answer for yourself and your constituents and everybody?

Congressmember Adriano Espaillat: Well, first, the notorious 10th floor cannot be a detention center. It could be a processing center, but if you're held there for an extended period of time, days, then it is a detention center. It must meet codes. We got a guarantee that the due process is followed-- that it's follow in a traditional detention center.

This is an administrative building, Brian. Just as we were there, people were lining up outside 26 Federal Plaza to get sworn in as US citizens. Ironic that at the same time, it's a deportation machine where people are awaited outside the courtrooms or regularly scheduled appointments to just be cuffed, locked up, processed, held there for extended days and then sent to a Louisiana or another state where you have a detention center awaiting deportation.

We must hold them accountable. The law allows us to do that, and that's why we're going there unannounced. We don't adhere to the seven-day rule because we feel that the law is on our side that stipulates that we have full access to any and all federal facilities run by ICE.

Brian Lehrer: Are you in court about this? Is that the best route potentially to getting access?

Congressmember Adriano Espaillat: That's one strong possibility, but in the meantime, we will be coming back as much as possible. We urge all our colleagues across the country to go to these processing centers where people are being arrested, detained and deported. These are folks that are complying with the law. They're doing everything that they said they would do. They're showing up, they're working within the parameters of the law, and ICE is abusively locking them up and throwing them in jail, waiting to be deported. This is un-American, and as we saw in the Gallup poll that came out this weekend, over 70% of Americans now are really upset about what's going on with regards to immigration.

Brian Lehrer: Listener asks in a text, "Congressman, has the New York State or New York City Department of Health inspected the ICE facility to ensure that health and sanitation codes are being followed as well as medical care?" Do you happen to know the answer to that or if they would have jurisdiction?

Congressmember Adriano Espaillat: To my knowledge, they have not inspected that, but there will be a question of jurisdiction since this is a federal facility. We want to get inside the notorious 10th floor to ensure that there are codes that are being met that-- As I said earlier, this is not a holding facility. This is not a detention center. As such, it doesn't have the structural aspects of a traditional detention center where people will get potentially health care, they will have the facilities there to keep them there for extended periods of time, days.

We hear that it's very crowded in there, that it is not healthy in there, and that people's rights are being violated. That's why myself and Congresswoman Nydia Velázquez went this morning, our second visit there, and we will continue to visit until we penetrate and have access to the notorious 10th floor.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing, Congressman, then I'll let you go, and I appreciate you calling in right after you left the facility. You recently introduced a bill called the No Secret Police Act, referring to ICE agents in masks. I know this is outraging a lot of people. They're public employees acting on behalf of the government, but in many cases now they're wearing masks, they're shielding their badge numbers, anything like that. This act is not going to pass the Republican Congress. Is there a way to get ICE agents out of masks? What's your take on the status of this issue?

Congressmember Adriano Espaillat: In the past administration, the Biden administration put, administratively in motion, body cameras for border patrol. No law enforcement activity should be done anonymously. Not even the New York City Police Department wears a mask. Even detectives that are conducting very sensitive and dangerous investigations don't wear a mask. Anybody that's enforcing the law, that is an agent of the law of peace, is a peace officer, they should not be anonymous. They should show their shield. They should show their face. Now, I saw them today, were masked there, 26 Federal Plaza. It's scary, Brian, it's terrifying to see somebody masked. You don't know if they're impersonating an officer.

We saw what happened in Minnesota, was somebody impersonating a police officer shot and killed a state legislator there and her husband. Any law enforcement activity should be transparent. It should not be done anonymously. Of course we're going to continue to push this bill. I will look also a court action to ensure that these practices are eliminated.

Brian Lehrer: There have also been some attacks recently on ICE officers. Do I hear your previous answer to allege that- and I'm sure you would condemn any violence against ICE agents, that the masks, their mask status, what that represents to people is making the attacks against them more likely?

Congressmember Adriano Espaillat: No, we first condemned any attacks on masked or any ICE agents. What I'm saying is that if you wear a body camera, it works both ways, not just to protect the civilian rights, but also to protect the law enforcement agent from any false accusation. In fact, some of the videos and film footage could be used as evidence in prosecution. If an ICE agent is masked and he's attacked, I will think that if he wasn't masked, there will be a greater degree of protection under the law against the perpetrators that attacked him or her.

I think that it is important that there's trust in the community between the community and law enforcement. Of course, masking an agent doesn't yield trust whatsoever. Quite the contrary, I think it yields distrust.

Brian Lehrer: Democratic Congressman Adriano Espaillat from upper Manhattan and the Bronx, thank you for giving us a few minutes this morning, we really appreciate it, and WNYC's Arya Sundaram, who's been reporting for WNYC and Gothamist on conditions at 26 Federal Plaza for migrants being held there for deportation. Just the last thought, Arya. It occurs to me that, as they say, sometimes the cruelty is the point. If what you've reported on, what the Congressman alleges, is actually true with respect to conditions where people are being held there, in this case, it's the point, because by getting publicity even like this, what it does is they might hope-- scare a lot of people into self-deporting.

Arya Sundaram: I can't speak on behalf of ICE's motivations here, and they certainly deny all the allegations, but self-deporting is definitely a really big part of the Trump administration's plans. They created an app to help immigrants self-deport. Actually, throughout American history, this is what The Deportation Machine, the book, is about. There's a major thesis of that book that self deportation has been a major part of immigration and deportation regimes throughout American history.

Brian Lehrer: Trying to just make it seem so hostile to be here, you might wind up in one of these holding rooms with the conditions that we've been discussing that, "Forget that. I'm just going home."

Arya Sundaram: You know what's interesting though is that self-deportation-- some of the people I spoke to are actually trying to self-deport, but they first had to go through this process. It makes me wonder what some of the logistics of that actually end up being.

Brian Lehrer: Arya Sundaram, WNYC and Gothamist reporter covering race and immigration. Thank you for your reporting. Thank you for discussing it with us.

Arya Sundaram: Thank you.

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