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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now we'll get a take on e-bike and other so called micro mobility regulation in New York City from City Councilmember Gail Brewer, who represents a good portion of the west side of Manhattan plus all of Central Park. If a member of council can represent a park, she's backing a proposal to require that e-bikes be registered with the city's Department of Transportation. Of course, this issue has sparked intense debate about safety, accessibility, and the state of transportation and micro mobility in the city. So many of the e-bikes on the street are essentially work vehicles operated by a largely immigrant workforce, there are so many other potential implications that we will try to get into. Councilmember Brewer, always good to have you. Welcome back to WNYC.

Councilmember Gail Brewer: Thank you very much, Brian.

Brian: What's the council bill here that I see people are on various sides on, about registration with the Transportation Department? I'm seeing it described as licenses, like the license on your cars.

Councilmember Brewer: There are a couple of bills. I actually support a resolution that I introduced to support state legislation to put licenses on e-bikes. There's another bill, Councilmember Holden 606, which says that the city should provide licenses. When the city testified the other day at a hearing, which 500 people showed up at 400 to testify, so you can see the interest, that bill would suggest that the city pay $19 million for licensing. As I said, I support the state doing licenses, but we all support e-bikes having licenses.

Brian: Why draw that distinction if you could just vote for the city council bill without having to start lobbying Albany and wait for Albany to do something. So much of this is in the city as compared to other places where people deliver things on bicycles. I know obviously it's an issue lots of places and not just with delivery, but you're in city council, city council could take care of it for the city. Why not just go for that?

Councilmember Brewer: I think two bolt. I've never seen the city Department of Transportation do actual building creating manufacturing of licenses. $19 million is a big number. These licenses, if done by the state are tied into red light. All the issues where they could be caught for doing the wrong thing, if in fact the license is tied into the state. I think it's complicated to have the city do something they've never done. I'd like to have it done right. I really am pushing for the state to do it and I know that Senator Brad Hoylman-Sigal is doing the same. If we're going to do it, we should do it, because then, as an example, the mopeds now have licenses or they're supposed to. That's done by the state. That's what I would like to see. I definitely want it done.

Brian: I guess all the motor vehicle registration, the license plates on people's cars, those are New York State licenses. I guess like you say, if you go through a toll or a red light camera, it's the state that has the infrastructure for that. I get it. Maybe you should take one step back for our listeners and just for those who aren't familiar enough with the term micromobility, describe what exactly it covers, e-bikes plus what?

Councilmember Brewer: Certainly scooters is an example. I think people also would put mopeds in there. We never had this before. We had bicycles that we powered with our feet and there are not included is pedal assist. They're separate. Everything else that you see flying by you on the streets would be considered micromobility. Speed is an issue. Citi bikes, the ones that have the batteries, they're considered micromobility. There are awful lot. They're are perhaps somewhere between 65,000 and 75,000 delivery people. I don't know how many city bikes and I don't know how many scooters, but they're all part of the same micromobility.

Brian: Listeners, obviously when we talk about this, we get the same kind of outpouring that Councilmember Brewer is just describing has showed up in-person for the city council here hearing last week. What would you like to see in terms of e-bike and other micromobility license plate requirements or other regulation or enforcement? 212-433-WNYC. If you're on any side of this, we'll get to the immigrant delivery worker side in a minute. 212-433-WNYC.

Anybody listening right now who uses a micromobility vehicle of any kind, e-bike or anything else for your work, would this be a burden to you? Would it be a risk to your safety or maybe even your immigration status if the police were more likely to come down on you or anything else from any point of view on micromobility regulation, particularly this bill that there was a hearing for in city council last week for license plates? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 for Councilmember Gail Brewer from Manhattan's west side. If I understand correctly, councilmember, you previously opposed blanket e-bike registration, saying it wouldn't necessarily make the streets safer. I guess it would just create all this bureaucracy for not much. Did something change for you?

Councilmember Brewer: Two things. One is, I just want to mention other things that need to get done and I'll answer your question. The first is those apps. I didn't realize how much control they have. If you are a delivery person and you don't get fast enough to delivering of the food, you can be cut off the platform. That's terrible. We want the apps to be much more involved. One suggestion, although we have to be careful as you suggested about immigration, but when Revel existed, they were able, they mandated to give their data to the city. The apps, I don't care whether it's Uber Eats, DoorDash, et cetera. They know where me as a delivery person is. Am I on the sidewalk, which is illegal. That data needs to be turned over to the Department of Transportation. They too cannot criticize necessarily the delivery person, but the act who's not training enough or letting the individual go on the sidewalk who's delivering. Data is a big issue for all of this.

The second, they're going too fast. Even the e-bikes, you can go 18 miles an hour. I think they should all be 15 miles an hour maximum for all of the micromobility. I think that would help a lot. Finally, I just think that the issue is much more training. We have a bill that says more training for those who are delivering. At the same time, I think in the past I didn't realize what a big issue this is. I just came from 2nd graders talking to 2nd graders this morning. Guess what? They're concerned about getting e-bikes hit. We hear about the hits that adults get. I couldn't believe how many hands raised when I said, has anybody ever heard of an e-bike issue? They all raise their hands. Close calls. This is a massive issue in our city right now.

Brian: I've had them. I don't know anybody who hasn't had one. One good friend of mine was hit, not by an e-bike, but it was either a scooter or a moped, I'm not sure, but got seriously injured and has been living with the effects for years. Lives in your district, in fact. When you say more people are getting hit, not just the close calls, actually hit. Can you elaborate on the data that's informing your view on that? Because at least in previous segments that we've done the last few years, that data hasn't been available. It's been very hard to come by. The advocates for not regulating them more, and they have some legitimate concerns for some of the delivery workers especially. Some of them say, "No, this is an impression people have," but there really isn't data to back up that any meaningful number of people are getting killed or injured by micromobility vehicles.

Councilmember Brewer: I only have what Department of Transportation said at the hearing. The DOT is always pushing the cars. 242 traffic fatalities, those are cars. Then pedestrians, 150 killed by cars. I'm just giving you, six, according to them, six killed with what I would consider micromobility. That's however, 8,700 pedestrians injured this year. I don't know how many micromobility. Obviously 90% they say of those were with cars. To me, the issue is not just as you suggested, your friend Rabbi Michael Miller was hit. He's very still in pain. The issue is [inaudible 00:09:47] [crosstalk]

Brian: He was the leader of the whole Jewish community in New York City. That Michael Miller?

Councilmember Brewer: Yes, I still think he is, but that's--

Brian: Maybe he is. I thought he had an executive position. Maybe he still has it. I apologize if I got that wrong. Yes, that Michael Miller.

Councilmember Brewer: Exactly. He is the same person. He's beloved. I'm just saying it's not only those that get killed, is those who get hit and those who almost get hit. When you're on the sidewalk and you're older and maybe you have a mobility, so you can't move quickly and the thing whizzes by, you don't know if you're going to get hit the next time. That can't happen anymore You should see these 2nd graders with the same concerns as an older person. It's not just the fatalities, it's the fear and it's illegality, in my opinion. Now, the deliveristas they have a hard job. I want to be really, really clear. The question was, how can you stop those apps from saying you have to get to Gail Brewer's house to deliver food quickly, but otherwise you're going to be cut off the platform. That's wrong. That's where we have to put a lot of our emphasis also.

Brian: Before we take some phone calls, give me the other side of this. The e-bike debate often pits delivery workers against pedestrian safety advocates. Right now, especially with the incoming Trump administration promising mass deportation of people who are here illegally, but even if they're otherwise law abiding, would e-bike registration right now set up potential unnecessary dangers for people who may be working off the books as delivery workers?

Councilmember Brewer: I think it's a concern. Obviously, all of this took place before Mr. Trump was elected, so we weren't thinking about it until more recently. I think it's a concern because any database, whether it is, I hate to say other kinds of databases that people take advantage of. I hope that municipal ID is not turned over that list. It hasn't in the past. We were able to stop it the first time he was president. Any database is going to be challenging. I think we also need to--

Brian: Municipal ID just so people know, because if you don't have legal status, you can't get a driver's license. Under the de Blasio administration, if I remember correctly, they set up a city ID program so that undocumented immigrants could have some official ID that would help them get various kinds of services. You're worried that the Trump administration will access that database because they know those ID holders rather than driver's license holders, maybe the people they're going after, even if they're otherwise law abiding.

Councilmember Brewer: I think all of these databases are concerning. I certainly have a great respect for the deliveristas. That's why I'm saying we should focus at the same time on the apps who are the ones driving this insane speed that's often them. They could regulate if we had some of their data. Those who are on the sidewalk. The sidewalk is the main issue where people are concerned.

Brian: Dan in White Plains, you're on WNYC. Hi, Dan. I guess you want to talk about the speed limit that the councilmember referred to a minute ago, huh?

Dan: I don't know if it's the speed limit that she referred to, but this is really a state issue because it also involves insurance. I'm a lawyer. I was contacted by somebody up here in Westchester who was involved in an accident while he was riding an e-bike. There's a system of classification that the DMV passed or a rule that they made that involves 20 miles per hour statewide as the maximum for an e-bike. e-bikes that are being marketed now go a fair amount faster than that, up to 28 miles per hour. In the particular matter I was looking into, the insurance company did not want to provide no fault benefits to this guy who was riding an e-bike and injured in an accident with a motor vehicle because the vehicle in traffic law has a definition for a motor vehicle and a motorcycle. Some of these can be considered if somebody wanted to save some money on covering accidents motorcycles. That's an issue. There really needs to be some definite legislation covering this statewide to include something about insurance.

Brian: Dan, thank you very much for that. Councilmember, anything on that?

Councilmember Brewer: Absolutely. The bill that I'm supporting, that Senator Hoylman is supporting, includes liability insurance. I should have mentioned that. I completely agree with your caller.

Brian: He said 20 miles an hour is the state standard for the max that these vehicles should be able to go. You said 15, I think would be your preference. That in and of itself might be a point of debate in any legislation coming out of Albany. Yes?

Councilmember Brewer: Correct. I think we can do that on the local level though. 15. Yes.

Brian: David in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi, David.

David: Hi there. I am a serious cyclist, although not a commuter, probably done about 12,000 miles. I'm very happy that the delivery folks no longer have to spend $2,000, that they don't have to buy a car and they can get an electric bike for much cheaper. The issue really is, as the council member says, the issue is really pedal assist versus fully electric, which is really a throttle control and that's really a motorcycle. Pedal assist, you really have to pay attention. Throttle control not so much.

In the space of a month, as a pedestrian, as a cyclist and as a car driver, I almost got hit by delivery folks going the wrong way on a one way street or on a bicycle lane. You really don't have to pay attention. They were not paying attention. They were really looking at their phone on their hand bar and not looking at anything else. I think that this is really critical. I'm not so concerned about speed per se, but the level of attention and the level of attention between a bicycle and a pedal assist versus a throttle control type of device is immense. The other element is, if a police officer were to stop somebody because they were doing something wrong, going the wrong way, what have you, what are they going to do if there's no license to be reviewed?

Brian: David, thank you very much. A number of our callers, so I'm going to let David represent them there, Councilmember are asking about enforcement, who would enforce the licensing? Who would be issuing tickets. Is this even an enforceable thing? I'll throw on another concern. We Know who gets enforced upon disproportionately in our city regarding so many things past and present. You have reason to be concerned if you're a young person of color, let's say, that you're going to be the one pulled over when somebody in another demographic isn't.

Councilmember Brewer: No, I agree with you. I know, for instance, now the police are supposed to be enforcing. I have to say because of manpower or other issues, they don't. Right now they're supposed to be enforcing. The advantage of the license, I think is both liability, as the gentleman who called first suggested, but also if I am hit or almost hit, I'd have a license. Maybe the cops aren't there, but I could bring it to the attention. Right now if a bike flies by, you have no idea who it is.

I think it would help the citizens and the residents as much as the police. I don't know the cops are ever going to have enough staffing to help in enforcement. I'll be honest with you. You can't chase a bicycle in a car. That doesn't work. You could hit somebody else. That's not a possible answer. I worry, as you do, about unintended consequences where people picked up who should not be. I think if you had at least the information-- Friend of mine got hit the other day, a young man, he's on his bike, he got hit by a moped. He was able to take a picture of the license and the individual, guess what? It was an illegal license. If it was a legal one, you could have a tracer. It's a hard issue, Brian. There's no easy answers. Look at the couple of calls you've gotten. Just multiply that times my email and the entire city concerned.

Brian: I mentioned on the show in previous segments that I was surprised at first by the position of some of the advocacy groups on this, who we generally don't need to name any names, but who we generally think of as pedestrian safety advocates or reduce the use of car advocates, some blogs that are information sites, some actual advocacy groups who I was surprised at first because I thought they represented pedestrian safety over everything else, were taking the side of the e-bike riding public and maybe mopeds and scooters too, against regulation.

As I've come to understand their argument, I think some of it at least has to do with their concern that licensing of micromobility vehicles and placing public attention on that might hinder efforts to reduce car dependency. One of the good things about this is that there are fewer people driving cars, which to some degree enhances public safety, even though we all know now that these present their own hazards. Does it surprise you who's lining up on what side of this at times?

Councilmember Brewer: I know the groups you're talking about. I have to say one good thing they're suggesting which has not been done but is mandated, is build out safe-bike lanes. As the street plan as it was presented has not been built out. One would hope that if in fact these bike lanes were secure, then there would be many more people riding either their regular bike or bike assist in the bike lanes and people would be safer. That's one answer that they have. I think this issue of safety on the streets from micromobility has come in such a blast for people. None of us really know exactly what's going to solve it.

I tried to bring Gail Brewer, tried to bring together these different opposing sides in a Community Board 7 meeting. At least we had a civil conversation. There are definitely opposing sides. Everybody wants no crashes. Everybody wants people to be safe. It's just a question of how you go about it. There's no easy answer. I do think people underestimate the fear of being on the street as a pedestrian with this e-mobility challenge that we're all trying to face, 2nd graders bringing it up.

Brian: What about bike lanes? We had a guest a few weeks ago who was concerned, not just about all the things we've been talking about, but about the electrified micromobility vehicles going in the-bike lanes with the regular bikes. Some people, I think she cited older women in particular as a demographic, but it might be a lot of people on regular bikes now a little bit more afraid to ride in the bike lane because they're not really safe from motor vehicles, which these micro devices are.

Councilmember Brewer: It's even worse. I've seen motorcycles in the bike lane. That's an enforcement issue that we absolutely have to address. I don't think they should be in the bike lanes if they're going to use the throttle as one of your callers stated. This is, again topics to be discussed because this is not a safety-- It's a safety issue. I have friends on bicycles, like you said, who are afraid now to be in the bike lane. We still need to build them out because that would involve more people using regular bikes or bikes pedal assist. Then we have to figure out where the micromobility devices need to be traveling. Maybe more people would end up using regular bikes if that was the situation. Again, I keep going back to the apps who say go fast, go fast. That has to stop.

Brian: John in Brooklyn against the licensing, I think. John, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling.

John: My point is it all sounds-- Brian, everything's revolved around safety due to speed of whatever type of vehicles are wrong way, whatever type of mobility device, if you will. Also like the previous caller was saying, he did 12,000 miles biking and so on. What about those types of bikers that are real serious Tour de France-bikers with the apparel and so on. Those guys are the biggest abusers of speed in the city and other places. Those guys are going 40, 45 miles an hour, head down, tuck down. I got hit three years ago on Flatbush Avenue and it was a Tour de France-bike. Those guys fly. What about regulations for them and also license plates on electric bikes. There's no enforcement now. There's never going to be enforcement and licensing is going to be a money grab.

Brian: John, thank you for your call. Councilmember to any of his points. Also he talks about being hit by a regular bike going fast. You probably remember it wasn't many years ago before these micromobility vehicles became so widespread. People were still calling the show and saying, "I'm afraid of the bicycles on the street because they go every which way. They don't obey the traffic lights the way cars do." People were calling about the proliferation of regular bikes in the city as that's been exploding over the last couple of decades. That came before the micromobility debate.

Councilmember Brewer: I still get complaints about regular bikes also. I'm in Central park often and the gentleman who talked about the bike racers, basically, they are incredibly fast. It's another issue. I don't think we can license regular bikes, however, or those with pedal assist. I think I said earlier this is a very complicated issue. People have to understand that pedestrians are not going to be looking all different ways, please slow down. If you're going to be the bike racer, find a different location than the streets or even sometimes the parks unless it's a safe time. I don't have an easy answer. Regular bikes need to go in the right direction and hopefully in a protected bike lane. That's why I keep talking about the need for having a bike lane as transportation alternative does.

Brian: Last question. On a lighter note, on your way out the door, and of course we'll see what happens with this legislation in city council and the legislation you support for micromobility vehicle license plates in Albany. Shifting gears, pun intended, on a lighter note, what's your bagel shop of choice in your district on the Upper West Side now that Absolute Bagels has sadly closed due to those creepy health code violations that have been in the news?

Councilmember Brewer: I like Orbaks and I always like Zabars. I suggest those two are my favorite.

Brian: New York City Councilmember Gail Brewer from Manhattan's west side. Thanks so much for joining us.

Councilmember Brewer: Thank you.

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