Title: How to Compost in NYC

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Matt Katz: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Matt Katz. I used to be a reporter here at WNYC, and today, I'm sitting in for Brian. Are you separating all of your organic waste from the regular trash? In layman's terms, are you composting yet? If you're a city resident and you're not composting, well, you are supposed to be. That's right. Since October, all residents are supposed to have been separating all of their food scraps from the trash, but data shows that less than 5% of the compostable waste is making it into those brown bins.

In order to make more people comply, starting tomorrow, the city will start issuing fines to property owners who aren't composting. Here with me now to explain how this is all going to work and all the ins and outs of how to compost according to the city rules and what the story will be in terms of fines for people who don't comply is Liam Quigley. He's WNYC and Gothamist reporter covering parks and sanitation. Hey, Liam, nice to talk to you again.

Liam Quigley: Hey, good morning.

Matt: Listeners, we're talking about the city's composting program, which, by the way, is mandatory, not optional. If you've got questions, and I'm sure you do, give us a call or text us now, and Liam from the WNYC and Gothamist newsroom will try to answer them, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. All right. Liam, so I should say first that I'm told whenever we talk about this on the air, people are confused by the rules. What can go in the compost bins, what can't, and then we have to talk about the pizza boxes.

Liam: Definitely. The things that can go in the compost bin is really stuff that came from the earth. Chicken bones, eggshells, dirty pizza boxes that are soiled with grease, fruits, vegetables, all that stuff that comes out of the kitchen when you're cooking and even prepared food, leftovers all gets put in the compost bin, not your regular trash. That even includes-- We just wanted to clarify with the Department of Sanitation. We asked them what about nail clippings and human hair, and they said that can go in the compost bin, too.

Matt: Wow. The pizza boxes, the full thing, you squeeze it in there?

Liam: Yes, if it's greasy, soiled pizza box, which they usually are, that can go in the compost because the system is capable of processing that, though obviously if it's clean cardboard, that still goes in your recycling.

Matt: The little wax paper that's sometimes in the pizza box and then the little circular white thing that's holding the pizza together, those go elsewhere?

Liam: The little mini table thing that I would say probably put in the trash may be recycling, but the pizza box can go in the compost along with fruits, vegetables, all that other stuff that you think of, stuff that rots, stuff that biodegrades.

Matt: One of the more surprising pieces of your story on gothamist.com, which laid all of this out, was the use of a plastic bag. You can put some plastic bags into the compost, which will make it helpful to store the stuff and then dispose of it.

Liam: Yes, exactly. The Sanitation Department has the equipment to extract that material. That's why you can line the compost bins with a clear plastic bag, though. You can also buy special, safe compostable plastic bags. They have the equipment to do that, and it's part of how they're advertising this program, which, like you said, has been around since October, that it's easy to use. That's a big selling point of this curbside composting program. Just one caveat, they don't want you to use black plastic bags.

Matt: Oh, okay. Is there a reason for that? Are they physically removing the stuff out of the plastic bag?

Liam: I'll check with Sanitation Department. I think it must present some issue for the mechanism, which identifies-

Matt: Oh, it's a mechanism.

Liam: -what the contaminant is, but a clear plastic bag should be fine.

Matt: In the past, meat or other animal parts can't go in the compost, but now with the city system, they can go? What's the deal with the animal parts?

Liam: Meat is fine. You could throw a whole slice of pepperoni pizza. You could throw any food you don't finish can go into the compost, which, again, that's supposed to be easy. Basically, anything that ends up stinking, that would be in your kitchen waste bin can now be separated and set aside for pickup on the same day your recycling is picked up. There was one person in Brooklyn who I was interviewing who he's setting out his brown bin, which you may see all over the city. It was also his trash day, but he said that he just simply didn't accumulate enough regular garbage to even have to set anything out that day. I think you might be surprised how much compost and food scraps you're generating week to week.

Matt: I hope no one's throwing out a slice of pepperoni pizza, as you indicated, but if they did, they could do it in the compost. That's good to know. How is the city going to start policing this?

Liam: We have recycling, and the way that that is enforced for co-mingling, glass, plastic bottles that you're not recycling properly. There are sanitation inspectors who will identify that failure to separate recycling and they'll issue a ticket by sometimes they open up the bag. Obviously, they're going to use context clues for how-- This isn't like 1,000 inspectors are going to march from sanitation headquarters tomorrow and start ripping open every bag in the city, but if there's complaints and if there's evidence that people are not composting just like recycling, there's going to be inspected and there's going to be fines for failure to comply.

Matt: We got a text from a listener, "My landlord seems to be playing lip service to the composting law. I live in a 24, 400-unit building, and they notified us on Friday about the availability of a single standard size composting receptacle on the ground floor in the freight area. If they were really serious about composting, there would be a single bin on each floor in the trash room, but instead the tenants have to walk compost to this bin that could not possibly accommodate all of the tenants in any substantial way." What are you hearing from high rise buildings and how they are adapting to the law and what they're doing? Are they putting bins on every floor? Is this person who texted, is this a common situation?

Liam: Yes, that haphazard approach, like, "Oh, now we have to figure out how to do this," it's not unique. I talked to people in a big building in Manhattan with over 100 units, this figuring out where to keep this stuff and how to build, because you've got hundreds of thousands of people are about to do something new, so big buildings, where do you keep that stuff? Do you keep it in the basement, on each floor? Is there enough room?

It's something that property managers are having to figure out, landlords are having to figure out, and building supers are having to figure out. You talk to building supers who say, "Look, I spend so much of my time dealing with recycling and reemphasizing to people that we need to follow recycling rules. Now, that applies to compost, too. I think a lot of people are figuring out right now how to follow this rule.

Matt: Barbara in Chelsea is on the line. Barbara, you apparently live in one of those high-rise buildings?

Barbara: Yes. Hi, Matt. Great to hear you back.

Matt: Thanks.

Barbara: I just had to call in because my building has issued a long list of instructions of what you're supposed to do, and I almost find it comical. First of all, I have a kitchen that's the size of a postage stamp, as do many people in New York City. I don't even have room barely for one garbage can. I definitely don't have room for another one. Then they want me to take certain things down to the basement, but they want me to put other things in a room on my floor.

The whole thing feels to me like keeping icky trash around. I have to also say my parents, who live on the Upper East Side who are in their 90s, got a similar set of instructions. If you think I can't handle it, they can't even begin. I just think New York city, we can't even get people to pay their bus fare.

[laughter]

Barbara: How are we supposed to get people to spend their days separating trash and bringing it to this room, that room, the basement, the roof? That's all I want to say.

Matt: Thanks, Barbara. Appreciate it. Liam, does there need, just need to be a better system for these buildings? Other cities do this. Other countries have done this to some degree. Is there something different about New York City that makes it particularly challenging?

Liam: Yes, the size of the apartments is definitely a challenge. It's true that composting is a thing in other cities, and a lot of people recycle in the city. I hear that challenge. I do not compost. My building doesn't offer it yet. Do you put a little box in your freezer where, as you're cooking, you store the food scraps throughout the week? Do you buy another little bin that hangs off off the side of your trash can? Do you take stuff down piecemeal every day? This is exactly it. People are going to have to figure out where to store this stuff.

Matt: You make a salad, and then you take the scraps on your cutting board and carry them down to your compost bin. We got a question from somebody who texted in saying they also have little counter space. They don't want the smelly waste in the kitchen, so they use a dedicated bag in the freezer for food scraps and empty them once or twice a week. Can you tell us what would happen? Give us a little more on how to store the compost, the other ways. You said attach something to the trash, freezer bag in the freezer. They have those little bins you can put on your counter. Any other ways to hack this?

Liam: They have these expensive or relatively expensive machines that start around $200 that advertises in-home composting with no smell and turns it into finished compost, which is what the city does with a lot of the waste. My mom uses, for example, one of the bins that hangs off the side of the trash bin. It's very attractive stainless steel, little bin, and you have the special size bags for it. I think that's what I'm going to try using.

One person did say, "Oh, you could store it on the fire escape." I don't know if that's the best idea in the summer. If you really don't want to deal with this and you happen to live near one of the city's smart composting bins, or maybe your local community garden has composting, you can take it to one of those bins, but it's going to be, like I said, people are figuring out how to do this, and I'm one of those people.

Matt: We have a question from John in Brooklyn. Hi, John. Are you there?

John: I am. Great to have this topic discussed. I'm at the other end of the spectrum. I have a backyard. I've been composting for years in Brooklyn. I had two city issued compost bins, and guess what? Over the years, these bins have attracted rats and I have a rat highway running from one compost bin to the other. Do you have any advice for Brooklynites or others who have gardens and have compost in their garden and how to avoid rats?

Matt: Liam, what do you think?

Liam: That's one of the challenges, especially if a collection is missed because recycling at compost day is one day a week. That creates a potential attraction for these rodents. The Sanitation Department says, "Look, if you have hard-sided bins with a secure lid, it's not as if rats know, oh, this is all stored separately." They even say, "Look at the piles of trash bags that have organic rotting waste, theoretically should be worse than the composting program." That might be a 3-1-1-- Maybe the Department of Health needs to mitigate the rodents in the area. That's definitely a concern, especially if there's a missed collection.

Matt: Thanks, John. Thanks for calling in. What are the fines? What are the fines going to be here? If the Sanitation Department goes through your trash, finds you've got a core of an apple in there, what happens?

Liam: That's $25 for the first offense, that can start tomorrow. That's for buildings with up to eight units. Then it's $100 for buildings with nine or more units. It goes up to $100 for the smaller buildings and up to $300 for multiple incidents at the larger buildings. That's on par with fines for failing to recycle.

Matt: This is WNYC-FM HD and AM New York, WNJT FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. This is New York and New Jersey Public Radio. You are listening to the Brian Lehrer Show. My name is Matt Katz. My guest is WNYC and Gothamist parks and sanitation reporter, Liam Quigley, and he's offering some helpful information on how to compost so you don't get fined. Is the city touting this, Liam, as another way of dealing with the war on rats, which has become a hallmark of the Adams administration?

Liam: Yes, they've argued that this is part of that fight to get all of New York City's trash in bins, out of bags, and cut down the rat population. Your compost, for example, must be set out in a secure bin with a lid. It doesn't have to be the brown bins that the city used to give away for free, as long as it's just labeled as organic material. The argument is less bags, less easy access for food for rats, and less bags of trash plus compost, which is how things had been done for a long time, means there's less food sources for rats to rip through those bags and get to the food.

Matt: I know that the compliance so far is minimal, but is there success in terms of the composting situation vis-a-vis the war on rats? Do we know that yet?

Liam: I don't know that there's a strong data correlation to neighborhoods that have a higher composting adoption rate to less rats per se. I think there's definitely an argument to be made that organic waste stored in secure bins will cut down on that food source.

Matt: Let's go back to the phones. Joe in Bayside. Hey, Joe. Thanks for calling in.

Joe: Hi. This might be an unusual question. My wife and I are homeowners in Queens, and we're Avid Gardeners. We do all our own composting. Every bit of kitchen waste gets composted in our yard. What I was wondering is, will the inspectors not see a brown bucket and automatically assume that I'm not composting and issue a ticket, or will they inspect the garbage before they issue a ticket? How's that going to work?

Liam: That's specifically something that inspectors should not be ticketing you for. Simply, the absence of a compost bin on the day it's supposed to be there is not a reason that you should be getting a ticket. The caller actually brings up a good point about yard waste. Yard waste can be recycled at the curb too in these bins with all your food scraps.

Matt: You also write that you don't have to use the curbside composting program outside your house, your apartment building. You can bring it elsewhere. There are other options.

Liam: Yes, those are those. One of the options is the smart composting bins, or there's also the community composting sites, which they declined for a while, but there's a couple came back online recently. Those are options, too. For example, I know there's a ton of them in Astoria, these orange bins you might see around. You download a free app on your phone, you trigger the bin to open, and you can dump your organics in there at any time of the day. That is an option if you live near one of those bins and you don't want to take advantage of the curbside composting program.

Matt: Got it. What about composting at work or at commercial sites, restaurants, office buildings? How does that all work?

Liam: New York City schools and New York City businesses have been composting for a while. Private businesses are required to work that out with their private trash hauler. Remember, businesses in New York City do not use the white sanitation trucks that we all rely on. They have to work out a service with a private company, though they do have the compost.

Matt: This is all part of what Mayor Adams has called his-- It's called Trash Revolution. The city also made big changes to when trash can be put on the street, how it can be put out. We know that most buildings now need to put trash bags in a bin with a secure lid, and so it's not piled up in these trash bag mountains. How's all of that going? Big picture here.

Liam: The containerization for-- I'll use a few blocks in Canarsie that I visited for one of these composting stories. You can see that people are open to containerizing their trash, which is also a rule for, I think, most buildings in the city, one to nine units that the trash must be set out in a secure container. You could see that people are doing that.

I think in a way that people demonstrate that they can do something new, because remember for years it was piles of black trash bags on every, every street. As far as bigger buildings, that pilot is underway uptown in Manhattan to get trash from some of the bigger buildings into dedicated bins. They're called empire bins that sit off in the roadway. That's going to take some time. That's still a pilot program.

Matt: It's interesting. People are resistant to change and they have understandable reasons to have concerns about how they're going to fit all this into their lives. We changed the way we handle trash pretty regularly in the city. It's not a new thing to adopt to new city rules relating to getting rid of our garbage.

Liam: Yes. There's recycling and the cardboard boxes. Does everybody follow the rules? No. I guess we're going to watch the data very closely and see if more people start composting. There's some neighborhoods where it shows early signs of promise. Then remember curbside composting for the whole city has been around since October, but the city has done various versions of curbside composting before. In some neighborhoods, there was really strong signs of a lot of people doing it. That's something that people are watching very closely to see how it's adopted because it costs money to run this program, and there's trucks out there looking to take your compost from the sidewalk.

Matt: You did touch on this earlier, but we keep getting texts about this. This is one text that came in. I've heard that you aren't supposed to use a bag to dispose of your compost. I buy biodegradable compost bags and throw the compost in the brown bin in that bag. Is that okay?

Liam: Yes, that's an ideal-- If you want to be the best composter is to use one of the compostable bags, that's totally fine. The reason you can use plastic trash bags is part of making the program easier so more people participate.

Matt: What happens to the stuff the city collects for compost?

Liam: A lot of it gets taken to Staten Island, where it's turned into finished compost, which is then redistributed across the city. You can make an appointment to pick that up and use it for gardens and green spaces. Then a lot of it is taken to the Newtown Creek Wastewater Treatment Plant, where it's used as a-- It's a co-digestion process where it's a slurry with other waste and is used to produce methane gas, which is sometimes fed back into the grid. Though critics of the program, a lot of people don't like to call this curbside composting because that's not in the true sense of the word composting. The Sanitation Department says, "Look, anything is better than it going and sitting in a huge landfill, just adding tons of greenhouse gas to the atmosphere."

Matt: Liam, thanks for your reporting on this. I'm sure you're going to be following it and look at the data and we'll report back on how many people actually get fined after they are found to have not been properly composting. Liam Quigley is WNYC and Gothamist parks and sanitation reporter. Liam, so great to talk to you again.

Liam: Thank you.

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