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Amina Srna: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm producer Amina Srna filling in for Brian today. Welcome back, everyone. Now we'll take a look at what's in store for transgender people in a second Trump presidency. Over the course of the election, then candidate Donald Trump made angst about issues involving the trans community a cornerstone of his campaign. He shelled out big dollars, something to the tune of $215 million, on ads that sounded like this.

Advert: It's hard to believe, but it's true. Even the liberal media was shocked. Kamala supports taxpayer-funded sex changes for prisoners and illegal aliens.

Kamala Harris: Every transgender inmate would have access.

Advert: Kamala's for they them. President Trump is for you.

Amina Srna: It's quite a lot of money and time spent focusing on such a small segment of the population. Various studies have found that trans people only make up somewhere between 0.5 to 1.6% of the population of the United States. Nevertheless, this proved to be a winning message amongst Americans, connecting soccer moms and the alt-right into the same coalition. Yet on the same election day that brought forth Republican control of all branches of government, Delaware voters cast their ballots for Sarah McBride.

She will be our first openly trans member of Congress. Her colleagues on the Hill have already put forth a bill banning her from using the women's restroom. Take a listen to Congressman Nancy Mace from South Carolina on why she introduced the bill.

Congressman Nancy Mace: I'm absolutely 100% going to stand in the way of any man who wants to be in a women's restroom, in our locker rooms, in our changing rooms. I will be there fighting you every step of the way.

Amina Srna: Where does this leave all of the estimated 1.6 million people who identify as transgender or non-binary in this country? Where are the concrete plans put forward by the President-Elect and how will they affect the trans community? What is the community doing to prepare for Trump 2.0? Joining me now to discuss all of these questions is Kate Sosin, LGBTQ+ reporter for The 19th, focusing on transgender rights, incarceration, politics, and public policy. Kate, welcome to WNYC.

Kate Sosin: Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

Amina Srna: Listeners, if you identify as transgender or have a loved one who is trans, how are you taking in the reality of a second Trump presidency? What are you doing to prepare yourself? Are there any particular policies that you're concerned about or have questions relating to? When you're leaning on, who are you leaning on for support, and where are you getting information on what to do next? Call or text us now at 212-433-WNYC, that's 212-433-9692. Kate, before we get into Trump's agenda for trans people in America, let's start with this bill introduced by Congresswoman Nancy Mace. Who is Nancy Mace, and why is there so much attention on a bill that would affect one person?

Kate Sosin: Nancy Mace is a congresswoman. She serves South Carolina's first Congressional District. She's interesting in that she has made her own history as being the first female graduate from the Corps of Cadets from the Citadel. She is a history-making woman. It's interesting because she has introduced this bill which specifically targets the first transgender person that we have elected to Congress, who's Sarah McBride. A lot of us know her because she also made history in Delaware as the first out trans senator there.

Amina Srna: That's right.

Kate Sosin: It's interesting because so often we see women's issues pitted against trans issues. At The 19th, which is where I work, we often see them as the same thing. It's gender that is the issue that holds us all back. This Bill specifically targets McBride in stating that she should not have access to a women's restroom. It's really hard to parse out the implications of this beyond McBride, but this is an issue, I think if we look historically, it's like this hidden figures moment of going after the basic necessities of a person trying to do their job. What it means, I think a lot of people recognize it as just basically mean-spirited. Transgender people should not have access to the basic things that they need, whether that's food, access to facilities, or a locker room.

Amina Srna: I hear your response that this Bill essentially targets McBride, but the content of the bill, is it a bit more broad than that? Are you aware?

Kate Sosin: Yes. Right. She was asked, is this specific to McBride? She said yes, but to be clear, she doesn't need to pass it through both chambers. The House would just need to vote on this, which is odd because you're talking about a place like DC which has broad protections for trans people. Yes, it would prevent trans people from using bathrooms at the Capitol. To give you an idea about government buildings, we did a story about courtrooms earlier this year, especially in government buildings, we've seen bathrooms be contentious places for trans people and bathroom access.

Government buildings especially, and the people who maintain them work really hard to make bathrooms accessible because they are our government buildings. This is the one place where we often see that there's not a problem with bathrooms. For example, if you go into courtrooms in this country, you'll find that the people who run those facilities work really hard to just create accessibility, whatever that's going to look like, whether that is offering additional options to people, making sure that the signage is updated. The fact that this is happening in one of our government buildings is really significant.

Amina Srna: Right. On that significance, I mean, what message do you think this kind of punitive action sends to trans-Americans?

Kate Sosin: I think that the message is supposed to be, we don't want you to exist, but scientifically, practically, logically and logistically, that's just not possible. From the jump, this is a losing strategy. If I'm going to be honest, it's embarrassing for us as a country to stand up and say, "We would like to strip people of their rights to use the bathroom." As a reporter, I feel like it's my job to speak truth to power and to not take a side, but the side of humanity is that our elected officials should be able to use a restroom. It's a humiliating moment for us. I think that we have-- yes.

Amina Srna: Go ahead. I'm sorry. Finish your point.

Kate Sosin: No, no. I think it's a humiliating moment that we have lawmakers who are trying to prevent each other from using a restroom.

Amina Srna: I do want to move on to Trump's policies. His campaign put out a video containing really too many policies to count, but we'll go through some that stand out. Let's listen to this one.

Donald Trump: I will ask Congress to pass a bill establishing that the only genders recognized by the United States government are male and female and they are assigned at birth. The bill will also make clear that Title IX prohibits men from participating in women's sports.

Amina Srna: He's talking about asking Congress to pass a bill there that there are only two genders and that they're assigned at birth. As somebody who's been covering these issues, what is the likelihood that these would pass both the House and the Senate?

Kate Sosin: Obviously, we have a Republican-controlled Congress, so if we look at that, on its face, it does look scary. I think the question then is, what are LGBTQ+ and trans people in particular, willing to do to stand up? We have looked at the polling on this issue over and over again, and in terms of what people actually want in this country, I don't have a sense that there's a strong appetite for anti-trans issues. I know that the election would suggest otherwise, but the polling that's been done on this has found that, one, it's not a high-priority issue for people, which is that when they rank their issues, they rank the economy.

Sadly, I think for a lot of folks, they would rank immigration. They rank a lot of other issues. Whether or not a trans person is able to use a bathroom or play sports ranks low. I think if we did rank it, we probably might not rank it in the way that we're expecting, which is that we dislike or hate trans people. A lot of us don't know a trans person, and I think if we brought this issue to the fore and the country had the opportunity to meet a lot of trans people and actually become educated on these issues in the same way that we saw the narrative shift on marriage equality, I think we would find that there would not necessarily be the appetite for taking away rights.

In the same way, the trajectory on marriage and LGBTQ+ issues moving so quickly toward actually advancing equality, I think we would probably see a similar shift, but because there's so little information and so much unknown about this community at this moment, I think we're seeing that vacuum be filled with disinformation.

Amina Srna: Kate, we're getting a lot of texts coming in right now, so I just wanted to read you a few. One reads, "I have a cousin who transitioned in her 50s and fortunately has had a lot of support at work. When it comes to these kinds of efforts, I honestly don't get the paranoia, who cares who's in the stall next to you? My college dorm had unisex bathrooms 30 years ago. It could not have been less of an issue for any of the students."

Another one I think that sets us up for another part of this conversation reads, "I am a trans woman. Frankly, I am scared. I have been rushing to finalize all my paperwork and identification, especially my passport. I served eight years in the Marines and never wanted to use a gun ever again, but now I'm scared. I'm seriously considering getting a pistol permit before I can't."

That brings us to how people are thinking about preparing. I wanted to ask you specifically about the impact this is having on Americans who've changed their gender markers. Does the federal government have access to records showing who's changed their gender marker in the past?

Kate Sosin: That's a great question, and it's an important question. The answer is maybe. I asked this question to a lot of people, and I Just want to say, if you're feeling scared in this moment, that's real and it's fair. Also, I want to acknowledge that the biggest fear that I think a lot of people have is January comes and trans people are going to be rounded up and roundly arrested for just being trans. I've talked with a lot of advocates and a lot of experts, and the answer that I'm getting back is like, "No, take a deep breath. There's still some semblance of democracy that is operational, and we're going to have some time. We're going to be okay. We will get through this."

One is, if you've changed your X gender marker on your passport, which is a federal document, then, yes, the federal government knows that you're a non-binary, for example, or if you've updated your gender marker from male to female and female to male, et cetera, then of course, there's a paper trail there. Changing it back does not necessarily erase that paper trail. Is it in your best interest to change it back? At this point, probably it's too late. That said, if you've changed it in a state, for example, if you've updated your driver's license and changed it, there's a less of a chance. For example, states have their own records. Is it in your best interest to change it? That's an incredibly personal decision.

It's what feels best for you. Which is a frustrating answer, I recognize, especially when you're thinking about your immediate safety. I always go back to something that I read when I was a young person in undergrad, which is Leslie Feinberg wrote this book called Stone Butch Blues, and in it, the characters are debating should they wear clothes that match the gender that they identify with, or should they dress so that the cops won't beat them up because they have to wear three pieces of clothing, match the gender that they were assigned at birth, otherwise they'll get beat up and arrested.

They ultimately make a decision to dress in a way that feels affirming of who they are. They say the cops are going to harass us no matter what. We might as well feel strong in ourselves. I kind of go with that. For anyone who wonders, I have an extra marker on my ID because that's who I am, and I'm never going to be able to change that. I'm going to go into the world feeling good about it. That is my personal decision. I think for all of us, those are hard decisions. There's no right or wrong way to do it. However, we can go into the world feeling strongest is best. If we all lie down and say that this administration can do whatever they want to us, then they can. I don't think they have that power.

Amina Srna: Kate, I believe in your piece, there was at least some semblance of guidance on what advocates-- Well, what are advocates saying that trans people should, if they want to participate in any process, should that be done as quickly as possible?

Kate Sosin: Yes. In terms of changing IDs?

Amina Srna: Yes.

Kate Sosin: Yes. If you want to start updating your IDs, or really, if there's anything that you need to get done in terms of paperwork, do it now for sure. Whether that is if there's someone that you want to get married, if there's an adoption that you need to finish, power of attorney, any paperwork that's not wrapped up. Advocates do recommend strongly that you take care of that. Wills, trusts, things like that. The paperwork that is not done, do it, don't wait.

Does that mean that we're going to lose marriage equality in January? No. There are a lot of laws, including the Respect for Marriage Act, that solidify those rights, but it doesn't hurt. There are a lot of threats to those things and a lot of people who'd love to start picking piecemeal at LGBTQ+ rights in this new world that we're going to live in.

Amina Srna: Listeners, if you're just joining us, this is the Brian Lehrer Show. I'm Amina Srna, filling in for Brian today. My guest is Kate Sosin, LGBTQ+ reporter at The 19th, which is a nonprofit newsroom that covers gender politics and policy. I want to move on and talk to you about gender transitions. We have a clip from President Trump talking about an executive order on this.

Donald Trump: I will sign a new executive order instructing every federal agency to cease all programs that promote the concept of sex and gender transition at any age.

Amina Srna: Kate, before we get into that, can you just give us a quick transition? What exactly-- a definition, excuse me. What exactly is a gender transition? Clearly, it's not one thing, as it seems to be, as the President-Elect seems to suggest.

Kate Sosin: Yes, I wish I had a clean definition for this. Gender transition can be anything in terms of just moving away from or apart from the gender that you were assigned at birth, whether that is in the way you live, dress, sometimes it can be medical, surgical, but basically, it just means that you are living outside of the strict gender binary that we're assigned, whether that's male or female. It can be a state of mind, which might be confusing for people, or truly transitioning from male to female, female to male.

Amina Srna: The President-Elect there is saying cease all programs. Are you aware of what programs he's referring to?

Kate Sosin: I would imagine that what he's talking about are the resources that we have in our country that support and affirm LGBTQ+ people. There is a Gender Equity Council, but I'm not sure a lot of what he has said in that full statement is just made up or is disinformation. Sometimes it's hard to parse out what--

Amina Srna: Sometimes it's hard to know. We have a caller who would like to ask a question. Joythe in Yonkers, you're on WNYC. Hi, Joythi.

Joythe: Hi. Can you hear me?

Amina Srna: Yes.

Joythe: Thank you so much for having this program. My concern is for transgender minors who want to start gender-affirming care, like puberty blockers, eventually hormones, and then eventually when they become a young adult, surgery. I'm wondering how much power this current administration has to eliminate or make those things difficult to access. It's very, very scary for families with young trans kids right now.

Amina Srna: Joythe, thank you so much for your call. Please call us back again. A text coming in from Emmett from Brooklyn, who writes, "I was able to transition as a Medicaid patient at Callen Lord, a publicly funded health clinic of which Trump had threatened to pull federal funding to public health clinics that offer gender-affirming care. Due to these services, I was able to turn my life around, build a career and a life for myself. Because I was able to access this health care, I'm finally able to be a fully functioning member of society and can finally imagine a future for myself. I don't understand why Republicans are so obsessed in barring us the opportunities to be normal people who frankly just want to be left alone and blend into society." Kate, do you want to respond to any of those callers?

Kate Sosin: I just want to say I'm really happy for you, Emmett. I think Emmett's story is like the story of so many trans people, which is just like a story of people who would just like to live. I want to say something about gender-affirming care that I think is so important when we think about it, which is that we all get gender-affirming care. It's not Just trans people. Whether that is going to the doctor and getting birth control or-- all of us have gender, and we all get care.

Targeting gender-- this is really important to think about, too. When we target gender-affirming care, it's impossible to target just trans people, which is what is going to make pulling this off from the Trump administration so difficult, because there are protections in place for trans people, for gender identity. It's going to be really hard to target just trans people within this if we're going after gender-affirming care. To the question about young people, reasonably, yes, that is a deep fear. Folks who are in states where there are protections for trans people and trans kids in particular are going to be much better off for longer. There is a risk, especially for youth.

There's two parts to this. One is that some of the advancements for trans kids, they're not new, I'll say, but there was a time when we didn't have them and we did have trans kids. Myself included came up without these kinds of interventions, and we fared okay. The most important thing that trans kids need is people who love them and support them. Getting them in community with people who will support them and champion them is the most critical thing. Yes, there are a number of people that I know that we've covered who have found that it's no longer bearable to raise their kids in places where they can't access the things that they need.

I think there's a lot of misinformation about puberty blockers, and people believe that they somehow change a kid instead of just pause the process of puberty until a kid is old enough to decide what is right for them, until they reach that age. Because of all that disinformation, kids especially are missing out on the health care that all major medical associations have long considered to be the right course. We're putting kids at risk of mental health crises on a huge scale.

If you are someone who has a trans kid, now would be the time to get connected to PFLAG or to GLSEN or organizations that support those kids to come up with a plan to support your kid, because this, I do believe, is going to be a challenging time for that kid and to figure out what that plan looks like.

Amina Srna: Kate, I want to ask you one more question, but before we get there, you had just mentioned the organization. Two organizations there, I think. PFLAG. Can you spell them for us?

Kate Sosin: Yes, PFLAG, P-F-L-A-G.

Amina Srna: [unintelligible 00:25:46]

Kate Sosin: Yes, GLSEN, G-L-S-E-N.

Amina Srna: Okay, great. Just in case those resources could be helpful to somebody listening today. You had just spoken about moving, so I want to close by asking you this. Listening to just some of these policies in the pipeline, it's understandable that some who identify as trans or families with trans kids may be considering a move, be it to a friendlier state. I believe in your piece you had referred to certain states and cities as like sanctuary cities in a way that sometimes we think of in terms of the migration crisis or even out of the companies-- out of the country, excuse me. Per your reporting, what advice is out there for those thinking about uprooting their lives?

Kate Sosin: In talking with all of the experts that I've consulted with-- and I just want to be clear that we don't fully know how all of this is going to play out, but from what I understand so far, if you are in a state that has strong protections for LGBTQ+ people, trans people in particular, you're going to be a lot safer, better off, and have access to the things you need versus if you are in a state that is hostile in terms of its laws, policies, and culture.

If you are living in Colorado or California, Massachusetts, you're going to fare a lot better than if you're living in Tennessee or Arkansas. If you are able in the next couple of weeks or months to get yourself to a more friendly state, even versus leaving the country, you're going to fare better in this administration. These states not only have laws that are friendly to LGBTQ+ people and trans people in particular, but they are moving very swiftly to pass laws that protect us from prosecution across state lines for doing things like going to the doctor, accessing the care that we need, which is critical in this new administration that is so dead set on criminalizing accessing basic care for trans people.

Amina Srna: We will have to leave it there for today. My guest was Kate Sosin, LGBTQ+ reporter at The 19th, focusing on transgender rights, incarceration, politics, and public policy. Thank you so much for your reporting on this issue and hope to have you back on.

Kate Sosin: Thanks so much for having me.

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