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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. The New York City Council held its first oversight inquiry into the Mamdani administration yesterday to assess where the city might have fallen short in carrying out its Code Blue emergency measures that kicked into effect last month when temperatures dropped below freezing. You may have heard by now that, to date, 18 New Yorkers have died outside in recent weeks, and at least 15 of those deaths have been linked to hypothermia, which means they literally died from being cold.

The mayor has gotten a lot of criticism for his response to the cold spell, and particularly, for his policy of no longer sweeping homeless encampments, even during the bitter weather. Now, Mamdani said on our show last week, that as mayor, he takes full responsibility for the city's response, including its flaws, while also noting that none of the 18 people who died were living in encampments, so he thinks that's a red herring issue, but it wasn't the core issue before the Council.

At the center of yesterday's hearing, was the question of whether the city should force certain homeless New Yorkers indoors against their will when they're facing dangerous weather conditions. The mayor has notably not done away with Adams' era involuntary removals. In fact, here's an exchange that we had on last Thursday's show. It begins with my question. I saw you quoted saying you're continuing the Adams policy of involuntary removal of people unable to care for themselves, so, do I have that part right? No change on the standards you are using to determine when involuntary removal is warranted in the person's interest?

Mayor Mamdani: Yes, that is correct, and just to be clear to New Yorkers, that's when there's been a clinical determination that a New Yorker is a danger either to themselves, or to those around them. The city has, over the course of the time since we've put our city into a Code Blue, which was on January 19, we have made 20 involuntary transfers, and this is only one part of what we are doing to do everything in our power to reach out directly to homeless New Yorkers, to bring them inside.

Brian Lehrer: No change from Adams' involuntary removal policy, said the mayor here last Thursday, but that answer did not seem to settle the issue. Criticism of his handling of the cold spell marks one of the first major political tests of this young administration. In many ways, it seems emblematic of the kind of tension that many may have predicted might color his mayorship. He's embraced a less punitive, you might call it, or a less coercive approach than the Adams' administration when it comes to homelessness.

There are concerns about how that will play out in the day-to-day when there's still a ways to go before he can fully realize his hopes of getting New Yorkers living on the streets into permanent housing. Council member Crystal Hudson, who chairs the Council's General Welfare Committee, and represents parts of Brooklyn, held that hearing yesterday, and she joins us now to discuss what the Council learned, and whether these deaths could have been prevented. Council member, thank you for being here. Welcome back to WNYC.

Crystal Hudson: Thank you so much for having me. Good morning.

Brian Lehrer: Was there a main question you were trying to answer at the hearing yesterday, and do you think you answered it?

Crystal Hudson: I think we were trying to assess the gaps. I've been saying as a lifelong New Yorker, I don't recall seeing 18 deaths in such a short amount of time due solely to the weather, or extreme weather conditions, and so I think that's really what we were trying to get at. What happened? Why did we see so many deaths in such a short amount of time? I do think we got some answers.

I think some of the concerns really are systemic concerns, processes that have been happening for a long time. I think there are also some solutions that we were able to identify. For example, increasing the number of stabilization beds, safe haven beds, which are the beds that allow people to come directly from off the street, and into housing immediately, some underutilization of those beds that were available during these extreme weather conditions, and other solutions that I'm looking forward to talking with you about.

Brian Lehrer: I want to ask you if the clip that we just played of the mayor from last week accurately reflected what was actually happening when he said there was no change from the Adams' administration policy of when to remove people involuntarily to protect them. Here's a clip from the hearing of City Council Speaker Julie Menin yesterday, which seems to indicate that she doesn't think the city went far enough. Here she is.

Julie Menin: We must help those New Yorkers who cannot help themselves get access to a warm and safe place. That is the humane thing to do. What is not humane is allowing New Yorkers to linger on the streets knowing that they will die in these freezing, extreme weather conditions.

Brian Lehrer: Did Mayor Mamdani continue the Adams' policy of when to involuntarily remove people from the streets in something like a Cold Blue deep freeze, or did he not as, or maybe he did, but even that much, even under Adams', it wouldn't have been enough?

Crystal Hudson: I think it's a little bit of both. I think the number he gave in the clip that you played earlier was in the 20s. Well, what they told us at yesterday's hearing was that DHS has performed 33 involuntary removals. The NYPD has performed 52, and they're the agency that has the final say over those involuntary commitments. I think it's really important that we honor the humanity of people who are living on our streets, and also balance that with the need to keep them safe.

It seems as though, based on the information that we were provided at yesterday's hearing, that a lot of the folks who died in the street weren't high need folks, and so it tells us that they may have been people who are on the fringes of the homeless system. The commissioner told us yesterday that some people may have been in touch with the homeless shelter system in the last 10 or 20 years, so not necessarily engaged with the system in more recent years, or even months.

It appears that we seem to be doing well with the highest need folks during these types of emergencies, but not really those who haven't asked for help, or haven't received much assistance, and so we need to ensure that we're governing for those people as well. I would say, a safety net isn't safe until it's catching every single person, and so we're looking for solutions on how do we actually get to those folks who might be on the fringes, who aren't maybe regularly engaging with our systems.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, and I think part of what you're highlighting is a debate over what the standard should be for involuntary removal, because my question to the mayor was, are you going to continue the same standard as Adams had? He said, "Yes", but what is that standard? Because I see the Committee kept returning to this debate over when city officials can involuntarily remove a person who appears to have a mental illness, and I think you were referencing the part of that argument where somebody who may actually be in danger says, "No, it's okay, I want to stay on the street," and when do you act against that person's wishes? Is that where the point of the argument is?

Crystal Hudson: Yes, I would say during a Code Blue emergency, you have to bring that person inside, and keep them safe and keep them warm, and keep them housed. Again, this is a-- It's a very nuanced issue, and I think we have to find that balance, but when we're in a Code Blue emergency, we've got to be bringing everybody inside.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take your comments, questions, or stories on the city's response to the Code Blue deep freeze, including the 18 deaths. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 for City Council member Crystal Hudson who held a hearing on this yesterday, and let's take a phone call from Phil in Williamsburg here on WNYC. Hi, Phil.

Phil: Hey, good morning, Brian. Hi, Crystal. Listen, I wanted to share with you a story that I had on Sunday night that speaks to the efficiency of the Code Blue system. I stepped outside my door at about 9:30 PM, and it was bitterly, bitterly cold, and literally walked past this guy who was probably in his late 50s, and he came off as kind of maybe homeless, I really wasn't sure, but I took three steps past the guy, and I realized he didn't have a scarf.

He has some loose fitting jacket, loose fitting jeans, and I said to myself, "If this guy ends up on the street tonight, he is going to die," so fortunately I was able to walk him a block over from where we were to the People's Firehouse in Williamsburg, which is a local not-for-profit that helps tenants and landlords and community development, and there I happened to have some winter clothes that I was going to give away, so I gave this guy some winter clothes, gave him some food to eat, and the first thing I did was, was called 311.

311 put me right in touch with 911, and they said, "Code Blue, we will send someone out there." Honestly, within 20 minutes, 15 minutes, they came, they got this guy, they spoke to him. It turned out that he spoke French, so I wasn't really able to speak to him in English, or in Spanish, but at any rate, they got him stabilized, got him into the ambulance, and they took him to a hospital.

Then, from there I'm not sure what happened, but it was such a sweet thing, because the last thing the guy said to me before he walked out into the hospital, into the ambulance was he asked me for my name, which really meant a lot, but I realized had they not come and got him so quickly, I don't know what would have happened to this guy, so kudos to the Code Blue system is what I say.

Brian Lehrer: Phil, thank you very much. For all the complaints that the city gets, it's nice to hear a story of, 311 worked, the response time was fast. Apparently, a guy got helped, if not saved.

Crystal Hudson: That's right, and thank you to Phil for his advocacy, and getting that New Yorker the help that he needed.

Brian Lehrer: How did 311 do generally, or for that matter, 911 during the deep freeze, if that's part of what you assessed yesterday?

Crystal Hudson: It was in part, one change that we saw happen leading up to the hearing, which was a good change, was that we had been hearing from New Yorkers that the wait time when they called 311 was extremely long, and that they were never connected to a live person. It was a lot of menus, pressing different numbers, and as people are seeing folks on their way to work, on their way home, part of their busy day, they're trying to do the right thing, trying to help, and it just made it a little difficult for them to do that.

Well, what the city did was they increased, or I should say, they decreased the waiting time to get to a live person, so I think it went from a minute and 20-second wait, to then a 40-second wait, so people were connected faster to a live person. They didn't have to go through as many menus, and hitting the numbers, and that means that people are also getting help a lot faster, and so that was one improvement that we didn't even really have to address at the hearing, because it had been done in the days leading up to it.

Those are the types of things that we need to see during Code Blue emergencies. The city being nimble, acting fast. We know that those things are possible. It's just that we have to make sure in advance of extreme weather, like what we've seen over the last few weeks, those changes are actually being made.

Brian Lehrer: Did you conclude that some, or all of the 18 people who died outside did not have to die if the city had responded in a better way?

Crystal Hudson: Brian, it's a tough question. There's nothing I can say definitively that, if this had been different, or that had changed, then the number would have changed. My hope, of course, is that moving forward, we can avoid additional loss of life due to extreme temperatures. I mean, nobody should die just because it's extremely cold, and they don't have shelter, or a warm place to be.

I think a lot of the changes that need to be made, like I said, can be done quickly, and also are more systemic. We need to make sure that we have systems that are in place, that training is being done consistently, that when folks like the gentleman that Phil helped, are going to the hospital, they're not being discharged into freezing cold temperatures. There was one gentleman that there was a news report that stated he was found dead on the street with hospital discharge papers in his pocket, and so clearly there was a gap there, and so we need to make sure that we are increasing the services and resources needed during these extreme temperatures, so that we don't see any more deaths.

Brian Lehrer: Phil and Williamsburg had one kind of story. I think Eric in the West Village has another. You're on WNYC, Eric, hi.

Eric: Hi, Brian, thanks for taking my call. I was near Cooper Union last week when it was very cold. A homeless man under 30 in a winter coat beanie was literally sweeping garbage. Emergency services came by. They tried to help him, and he couldn't have been more rude and aggressive, and I think it would have been very dangerous to do any kind of removal there. What do you recommend, Councilman, about dealing with individuals like that? Unless you take a heavy handed approach, I don't know how you get them off the street.

Crystal Hudson: [crosstalk] Yes, that's-- Thank you. That's also a great question. Listen, this work is hard work. We heard from advocates as well, and people who are in this work, they're leading this work, they're running the organizations that are providing these types of services to folks, and one recurring theme that we heard was the continuous outreach. A lot of the people who are living in our streets are known to outreach workers. They're known to some of these organizations, and they're known to the city.

We need to make sure that those folks are continuing to build trust, and so that people feel comfortable coming inside. That may have been the situation for those emergency workers in that moment, but perhaps, if an outreach worker who has maybe engaged with that person on other occasions that they're more familiar with, then he would have gone inside with them, and so I think that there are a lot of different factors at play, and that's one of the things during these types of situations and emergencies, specifically, is how are we maximizing the chances for people to actually come inside. That should mean that we have an outreach worker that's familiar with that person, that has walked that beat previously, in addition to emergency services, so that there's some familiarity in those moments.

Brian Lehrer: Chris in Manhattan has yet another anecdote, I think. Chris, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Chris: Hello. Thank you for taking my call. I had a difficult experience on Saturday night. There was a homeless person out in the freezing cold in an ambulance outside next to him on the street. I asked the ambulance driver to roll down his window. I said, "Are you going to take this guy or not because of the cold?" He said, "Actually, the law has changed." He said, "Under Mayor Adams, we could have forced him into the ambulance, but now under Mayor Mamdani, we cannot, and the guy doesn't want to go into the ambulance, and our hands are tied," so the person-- I could barely sleep that night worrying about that person. It looks like he did survive the night, but I just wondered whether or not the ambulance drivers understood what the policy was. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Chris. Yes. The way Chris describes what the ambulance driver said, it would sound like the ambulance driver did not understand that there was no change to the Adams' involuntary removal standard, or did you conclude that there was Council member?

Crystal Hudson: No, I agree with you. It sounds like they didn't understand that. A lot of this stuff also comes back down to communication and training. Just because we say something in one space, doesn't mean that every single person, and certainly that every city employee is always going to hear it. We have to make sure that we're communicating directly with these folks, and especially with the frontline workers who are on the ground.

Brian Lehrer: We've talked about involuntary removal as one thing. The other thing that comes up is the Mamdani administration's policy of not doing these homeless encampment sweeps. Maybe they get conflated, because Mamdani does say, "No sweeps," no more sweeps. That is a change, even if he's not changing the involuntary removal standard. The mayor also said here last week, as he has said elsewhere, that none of the 18 people who died were in homeless encampments.

Yet, a lot of the criticism continues to focus on the "no sweeps" policy. Many articles in The New York Post over the last few weeks, for example, that suggested that the homeless that-- I'm sorry, the no encampment sweeps policy was either putting people at risk theoretically, or actually responsible for deaths, but the mayor says nobody who died was from an encampment. What's the reality, if you were able to determine it from your hearing yesterday?

Crystal Hudson: Well, I think the reality around this issue in particular is really political. I think folks are making it a political issue, as opposed to an issue that's really addressing the humanity of the folks who are living in encampments. Again, we heard testimony from folks at the hearings yesterday, professionals who work in these spaces, and also folks who shared testimony, written testimony from people who are homeless, people who have experienced the encampment sweeps.

There was a testimony shared from a father who said that all of his belongings, his tent, his blankets, everything, toys for his kids were-- The kids, just to be clear, it didn't seem were living in the encampment with him, but items of theirs that he may have been holding onto were removed, and thrown into the sanitation truck, and that's a very traumatizing experience. Whether people have been collecting items over a long period of time or not, that's their property, and those are their items.

A more, I think, compassionate and effective way to approach encampments is, again, having outreach workers build trust, talking to folks, and also having stabilization and safe haven beds that are meant for people who are living on the streets, that are in, that are providing resources, wraparound services, all of the services that somebody who might be choosing to live in encampment needs.

The other thing that came up yesterday in the hearing is the idea that, and I believe Commissioner Park brought this up, but if we get to the point where people are choosing to live on the street, as opposed to being in shelter, then we've already missed them. They've already fell through the cracks on many different other occasions, and so that's like a lot of the systemic work that I've been referring to, which is, we have to figure out how to keep people housed as a first step.

We're seeing an increased number of evictions and things like that. The previous session of the Council, we fought back and forth with the mayor around expanding CityFHEPS vouchers, it's still in court, that case. I know the current speaker and current mayor are working that out, but we have to keep people housed to begin with. We have to expand the number of CityFHEPS vouchers that people have access to. We have to make it easier for people to find housing. We have to get people out of our shelter system, and into permanent housing, into supportive housing, and expand all of those resources, and then you won't see people choosing to live on the streets.

Brian Lehrer: Which also gets to one more issue that I want to play a clip of the mayor about from last Thursday's show, and then we're out of time, and that's that New Yorkers living on the streets are often really reluctant to move to the shelters, even temporarily, while they're waiting for permanent housing, and even during Very cold spells, because the conditions in those shelters can be really bad, even dangerous, so here's Mamdani talking about this here last week.

Mayor Mamdani: For many homeless New Yorkers, their prior experiences with the shelter system, their prior experiences with the services they've been provided are also what color their decision making of whether, or not they should be inside or outside, and so we don't want to go to them and say, "There's only one option you have. Take it or leave it." Our goal is to go to these homeless New Yorkers and say, "Here are the many different ways that you could come indoors, be warm, be safe," and ensure that we are actually meeting that moment, and meeting their needs.

Brian Lehrer: Last question, is that to some degree on you in your City Council General Welfare Committee, and the Council, generally, to pass laws that make it more attractive, or palatable for people to go into shelters before they get permanent housing?

Crystal Hudson: Well, yes, in many ways. I mean, we can't legislate our way out of every issue, but certainly, I mean, that's what we were doing when we pass a package of bills that would expand eligibility for CityFHEPS vouchers, make it easier for people to get vouchers, and get into permanent housing. Then, Mayor Adams sued us. Well, first, he vetoed the bills, and we overrode those vetoes, and then he sued us, and so we're now in the appeals process, and as I mentioned, the mayor and the speaker are working that out through their legal teams.

Yes, we have done a lot of work in trying to pass bills, and create legislation that would make it easier for people to get into housing. Then, also, to your question, Brian, it is our job to provide the oversight. I agree with what the mayor said that, in his more compassionate approach, I would say, and so we need to make sure that we're holding him accountable, that he's actually following through, and doing the things that he's said he would do.

Providing people with multiple options, providing people with maybe different options than they've been provided with in the past, but I'll add this, too. We heard from a gentleman at the hearing yesterday who came from a shelter to provide testimony, who said that he chose the night before to sleep outside in the cold, because of a conflict he was happy having with one of the shelter staff.

He said it's a conflict that he's been having for a long time. He has felt disrespected by this particular staff person. He's made complaints, and it seems, based on his testimony that nothing has been done, so my team has collected his contact information. We've been in touch. We're going to try to get to the bottom of what the issue is, but we should never have somebody who has a safe, warm place, or I should say a warm place to stay, who doesn't feel safe to stay in that place, because of a staffing issue, or a disagreement, or wherever it whatever it may be that hasn't been addressed, and then forces him to make the difficult choice to sleep outside in the cold, instead of sleeping in the bed that he's been provided.

Brian Lehrer: New York City Council member and Chair of the Council's General Welfare Committee, Crystal Hudson, thank you so much for joining us.

Crystal Hudson: Thank you, Brian.

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