Title: How RedNote is Connecting Average Americans with Chinese Civilians.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now I'll wrap up today's show with a look at a social media platform that gained unexpected popularity ahead of the scheduled TikTok ban. It wasn't a Meta app such as Instagram or Facebook, nor was it X. It was an even more Chinese app than TikTok, called Xiaohongshu, otherwise known as RedNote in English. In the weeks leading up to the TikTok ban deadline, disgruntled TikTok users headed over en masse to RedNote, making it the number one most downloaded free application in the United States for a while, although at this moment, it sits at number six in the Apple App Store. We looked it up. What originally began as a sign of protest against the TikTok ban became a surprising moment of cultural exchange for many. Chinese users of the app woke up one morning to see "TikTok refugees" had joined their social media platform and filled the platform with welcoming messages such as this.

Speaker 2: Today, we don't care where we are from or what makes us different. Today, we are just friends, like old friends reuniting after a long time. For so long, we haven't had a chance to really talk, to truly connect, but now, finally, we can. That means something. This is real. This is special. This is more than just a moment. It's a chance for us to understand each other, to share and maybe even create something incredible together. I just want you to know you are not just welcome here, I genuinely, truly hope you to stay because what's happening right now. I think this is something bigger. This is people reaching across borders, not because they have to, but because they want to. Choosing to learn, choosing kindness, choosing connection. I think that's something truly powerful. Welcome, and let's make this something unforgettable.

Brian Lehrer: All right. That was one Chinese RedNote user, strings and all, welcoming in American users. Is this a moment of diplomacy between American and Chinese civilians? What kinds of conversations are taking place on RedNote between users here and in China? Now, the regular folks are able to speak to each other directly for the first time, not just through diplomats. On the other hand, how concerned should Americans on RedNote be about their data, given the reasoning behind the TikTok ban presented by Congress? It's been national security concerns and the Chinese government being able to access anything they want on these platforms. We're going to invite your calls in just a second. Joining me now is internet culture writer Steffi Cao. Steffi, welcome to WNYC. Thank you for joining us.

Steffi Cao: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here today.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, I wonder if we have anybody listening right now who is a TikTok refugee. Of course, TikTok hasn't shut down, at least as of now, but might consider yourself a TikTok refugee in anticipation and joined RedNote or Xiaohongshu, as it's originally called in China, in recent weeks, 212-433-WNYC. If so, what has your experience been like on the app? Are you staying on RedNote even though TikTok is still around for now? Maybe you're Chinese American or maybe you're a Chinese national listening right now in China. They can get this show in China on the Internet, I am told. You've already been on Red Note for years and now are welcoming in some Americans, so 212-433-WNYC. If you have a RedNote experience to share, 212-433-9692, call or text. Steffi, for the uninitiated, you want to say a little bit more about what exactly RedNote is?

Steffi Cao: Yes, of course. RedNote was originally formed in 2013. It's a Chinese-owned company. It was created as an answer to Instagram. Obviously, Instagram is censored in China, so Xiaohongshu was introduced as an answer to that. The app kind of function as a cross between Instagram and Pinterest. When you enter the app, it really looks like a Pinterest board, a bunch of static screenshots of the videos you can click in. That's when you have this short form vertical video aspect. It was originally created as a way to have people find lifestyle, beauty, fashion, that sort of thing. Anything you would go to Instagram for, Xiaohongshu was supposed to be the answer to that. Of course, now, there's memes, news, trends, fitness, everything really on the app.

Brian Lehrer: I played that clip of the warm introduction American users received on RedNote. Can you talk about the early moments of the integration? What was it like for both Chinese users and American users when they first began to interact?

Steffi Cao: Yes. The mass migration over to Xiaohongshu really happened organically. There have been American users on RedNote for years, primarily Black women creators in the beauty space because Xiaohongshu was specifically known for its beauty trends. There have been Americans on the app for many years now. In the looming news of TikTok's ban, a lot of these creators, who are often young women of color, young Black creators, were saying as a joke, "What? Since the Congress is so concerned about national security, I'm going to ironically stick it to them and do the thing that they fear the most, which is get even more Chinese, and we're all going to go over to Xiaohongshu," which then inspired many more creators to hop on the trend in a way that only a TikTok trend could take off, and everyone moved over.

Brian Lehrer: Here is Joy in Hammonton-

Steffi Cao: I'm learning Mandarin now.

Brian Lehrer: -who's on the air and told our screener that she's a TikTok refugee. Hi, Joy, you're on the air.

Joy: Hi, Brian. Longtime listener, first-time caller. I have over 300,000 followers on TikTok and I left TikTok last Wednesday to go on Xiaohongshu. My eyes were opened. Many Americans like me feel completely just ignored, especially for the fact that we were monetizing our content on TikTok. We have been so welcomed by the Chinese people. Learning that we have so much more in common than what we have in indifference, it's been so refreshing and I can't tell you how many times I've cried this week alone talking with my Chinese brothers and sisters. It's been truly life-changing.

Brian Lehrer: That's great that you're having those interactions. Let me ask you a question about why you went to RedNote of all places, in particular, when you were concerned about losing, I guess, some income as well as followers. If TikTok were to shut down because of its relationship to the government of China, RedNote, rather than a site that doesn't have that issue, presumably if the US shuts down TikTok because China can access your data there, they'll shut down RedNote for the same reason eventually, and you'll have to find a new community again or a new outlet.

Joy: True. I feel that the information that media platforms like Facebook and Instagram and Meta has already collected on us, our collective agreement, and I can't speak for all Americans, is what's the difference? What's the difference? We already have the misinformation that we've been getting on Facebook and Instagram, and now the most powerful executives want to purchase TikTok to what I think is to control the messaging, to control what we see and hear, and perhaps to silence some of us and take down our posts if they disagree with either corporate sponsorships or people of power. What's the difference? What's the difference?

Brian Lehrer: Well, most of Congress would say the difference is that as gross as it may be, that Facebook or whatever collects your data, this is the Chinese government, a big enemy of the United States, who might use it against the United States in some way.

Joy: I don't see how my information, what I say, what I do as a doctor of acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine would be used against anybody. Remember, I think as Americans, we have short-term memories. Cambridge Analytica and Facebook, that was not a good thing for us in general as Americans. I, for one, am very happy to be talking to people that I never had access to talk to before. They're learning from me, and very basic questions. "Can you show us your daily life? Where do you go shopping? How much does a hoodie cost in the stores?" Like, very basic questions. They're intrigued by how we live and we're therefore intrigued by how they live. We have so much more in common.

Brian Lehrer: Joy, thank you so much. Here's another user, Stacy in Queens. You're on WNYC. Hi, Stacy.

Stacy: Good morning, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: You're on RedNote?

Stacy: I'm on RedNote and I love it. When I was a kid, we couldn't afford a foreign exchange student program, and now here I am in my 50s, loving this cultural experience that I'm having. I agree with everything Joy said. Just walking through an IKEA in Beijing with a user is fascinating, how much things cost there versus here. A lot of the things that the Chinese people thought was Chinese propaganda against Americans, it turns out they're true. Things like they're fascinated by our ambulance bills and our cost of medical care and how much housing costs. They thought all of that was a lie and then they find out that they're true. Like people holding up their medical bills and stuff. It's a real interesting moment and I'm just loving this cultural exchange. Just like Joy, your previous caller, said, we have so much more in common than we ever thought possible.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Steffi Cao, internet culture reporter. Interesting to hear these calls, right?

Steffi Cao: Yes. It's hard to say that they're surprising. It's not really a surprise to me because this is the conversation that we've been seeing on the app for weeks now. It's always incredibly uplifting to hear how much people are enjoying opening their worldview.

Brian Lehrer: I should have mentioned at the top that you have an article on this in Rolling Stone called RedNote is the US-China Peace Talks We Need. That's exactly what we're hearing from our couple of callers there. It's as if these are US-China peace talks because it's citizen-to-citizen exchanges. What's the Chinese government's side of this? If the US government has some concerns about Americans starting to migrate to what we're calling an even more Chinese site for various espionage or whatever reasons, those concerns, what's the Chinese government position here? Because historically, I think they'd even be more concerned and act on restrictions more to stop regular Chinese people from interacting with Americans.

Steffi Cao: Yes, of course. I know this is always a big concern when it comes to anything regarding US-China, especially when it comes to culture. My particular scope really focuses on internet culture and digital trends, so I don't really have a specific answer around whether or not the Chinese government is leaning towards calling this espionage or not. However, we do know that the platform itself, the company itself has released a statement that they are possibly considering bifurcating the servers, which means that American servers will be on one and Chinese servers will be on another.

Even over the last few weeks, we've seen that translation services have been rolled out onto the US user platform. While people downloading the app at the very start of this migration received their entire experience almost in Mandarin without any pinging or romanization, now everything is in English on the platform. It is possible that there will be separation. However, with the uncertainty lying before us with TikTok's ban and the extension that President Trump issued, it's hard to say.

Brian Lehrer: There are some listeners who are chiming in who are not having any of this. One text, "The users of this app have no idea if what they're seeing is honest and true. That's part of the problem with an app controlled by an adversary nation." Jason in the East Village, skeptical of the callers, not their intentions, but the bigger context that he was hearing. Jason, we have 20 seconds for you before we run out of time in the segment.

Jason: Oh, hi. I was just going to say the fervor of all these TikTok-supporting callers seems to prove the point that the Chinese government does have sway over a very large swath of the American population.

Brian Lehrer: Why sway, though? If these people feel like they're having person-to-person exchange, doesn't necessarily make them supporters of the Chinese Communist Party, right?

Jason: No, of course not. Imagine a world where, in some sort of conflict, they could start to subtly change the message. They've got a controlled population here.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Jason's going to get the last word. Very interesting to hear from RedNote users and some skeptics. Our reporter guest, Steffi Cao. She has two pieces on RedNote ad actually, one on Slate titled I Love RedNote, Unironically, and another in Rolling Stone titled Red Note is the US-China Peace Talks We Need. Thanks for joining us, Steffi. Thanks a lot.

Steffi Cao: Thank you so much.

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