Title: How New York Will Implement Congestion Pricing [MUSIC]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. On Friday, the Federal Highway Administration gave final approval to the new lower congestion pricing plan for Manhattan. Have you heard that yet? Barring judicial action, beginning on Sunday, January 5th, yes, it begins on a Sunday, drivers will be charged $9 to drive south of 60th Street during peak hours. Now, as I'm sure you recall, Governor Hochul postponed the original plan days before it was originally supposed to go into effect with a $15 toll months ago. Now it's back at a 40% lower rate, allowing the MTA to continue major capital programs, many already underway.

You've been hearing certainly that the governor resurrected it and took it down to $9. The new development since we last spoke is that the federal government gave its final approval on Friday. This matters because there was fear that Trump would come in and cancel it.

We'll hear now from one of the governor's main point people on congestion pricing. It's Kathryn Garcia, the governor's director of state operations. You might also remember her as the sanitation commissioner in the de Blasio administration in the city, and a former mayoral candidate who came pretty close to winning the Democratic nomination in 2021, but of course lost it to Eric Adams.

Welcome back. Kathryn Garcia, welcome back to WNYC. Do we have Kathryn Garcia? I can't hear her if we do.

Kathryn Garcia: Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Ah, there we go. Now we got you. I don't know what the glitch was. Sorry about that. Listeners, we don't have time for many calls, but we can try to get to a few. This is probably not the place to suss out the tolls for individual routes into and out of the zone, what happens at 59 1/2th Street as you're going onto the Queensborough Bridge and things like that. Your overall take or general questions now that it's coming on January 5th? 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692.

Ms. Garcia, I want to start with the fact that President-Elect Trump is an opponent of the plan and has said that he would be very unlikely to give it federal approval or would try to even cancel it after he took office. With the federal approval on Friday, does this make that impossible for Trump to do?

Kathryn Garcia: We feel very good about where we are with the approvals we've received from the federal government, and that we will be able to implement this starting January 5th. We really think it's going to be very good for New Yorkers, particularly for anyone who has an emergency in Midtown. I know that for folks who walk the streets of Midtown, you'll often see emergency vehicles trapped in gridlock. That's just dangerous. Part of this plan is really about making sure that traffic can move smoothly in the core portions of Manhattan, and have the other benefit of improving our air quality and obviously raising money for the MTA, where millions of New Yorkers take it every day.

Brian Lehrer: Well, is there a formula that says if the congestion pricing fee went down by 40%, that the amount of money available to the MTA is going to go down by 40%, and so it's not going to do all that much to improve the transit system?

Kathryn Garcia: The MTA will have the funding that it needs to implement the $15 billion program that is reliant on congestion pricing. It will take over time. This is a bonding question. Obviously, this is giving them a credit card that they will pay back out of the money raised by congestion pricing. We feel good about their being able to do that and enter the bond market and get the funding, and it's critical.

I think one of your prior listeners was talking about the fact that too few ADA-compliant subway stations in the City of New York or on Long Island or in the Metro-North system. We can make that change. Then for those who are on the 7 or the L train who've seen what improved signals can do about reliability, we need to see that in the rest of the subway lines.

Brian Lehrer: I'm glad to hear you were eavesdropping on our previous segment about the City of Yes housing plan. Given that this new plan may still be stopped by lawsuits, even if not by the federal government, did the prospect of those lawsuits play any role in the governor's decision to reinstate the plan right at this time?

Kathryn Garcia: We have been facing legal action since the beginning of this program, and in some cases have won significant victories in the Southern District supporting the congestion pricing plan. Those are always in the background on almost any big project that the state or any other level of government does. We are really driven by the fact that the governor wanted to make sure that we had a lower cost, $15, which is simply too high for her, and that this was the moment in which we thought we could get all our ducks in a row and make sure we got the federal sign-offs.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call from an Uber driver. Jacob in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Kathryn Garcia, Governor Hochul's director of state operations, on congestion pricing. Hi, Jacob.

Jacob: Hi. How are you, Brian? I work as an Uber driver part-time. How is this going to affect the passengers that I take to Manhattan? If I do decide to go into Manhattan, like during my leisure time, will that affect me as well or would I be basically being charged with the same price?

Kathryn Garcia: There are special fees for app drivers, so for Ubers and Lyfts there's $1.50 on all trips to and from or within the CBD during the day. It was changed. You're not paying the $9 every time you enter and leave, it's on those per-trip rates.

Brian Lehrer: I hope that answers your question, Jacob. Good luck out there, stay safe. What do all drivers need to do before this goes into effect on January 5th? Like, does E‑ZPass reduce your rate compared to just a license plate scan?

Kathryn Garcia: E‑ZPass is the $9 charge. You really need to make sure your E‑ZPass is connected to that license plate. Also, if you are coming through one of the tunnels, whether or not that is the Hugh Carey Tunnel or the Midtown Tunnel or the Lincoln or the Holland, if you have the E‑ZPass connected to that license plate, you're going to get a crossing credit. It will further reduce the fee for you to come in to the central business district to $6.

Brian Lehrer: A listener asks in a text, "Do we know if the motorcycle toll will be reduced 40% as well?"

Kathryn Garcia: The motorcycle toll will also be reduced to $1.50. All of the tolls were proportionally reduced by 40%.

Brian Lehrer: Jackson in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Kathryn Garcia. Hi, Jackson.

Jackson: Hi. Longtime listener, first-time caller. Thanks for having me on.

Brian Lehrer: Sure.

Jackson: I've been driving in the city since I was a kid. I also use the subway almost all the time. I just feel that this is a completely tone-deaf position. If we're trying to raise money for the MTA, we should be looking at taxing the extremely wealthy people in the city. There's so much income inequality. What this will do, the final result is it'll give lower traffic to the city bankers, the Wall Street guys, the fat cats, free roads, easy transportation for the rich, tax the middle class because it's unpopular to tax the rich.

Brian Lehrer: Ms. Garcia?

Kathryn Garcia: I don't think anyone's ever said it was unpopular to tax the rich. We know that we need to--

Jackson: Why can't it be passed? Because they have too much lobbying power.

Kathryn Garcia: The focus of this is to get people to change their behavior. We have made incredible investments into our infrastructure already, and we're going to be making more. For example, on Long Island right now, we have 40% more service with third track and with the opening of Grand Central Madison. There are really good options for coming in from other parts of the city.

What we all know and should remember is that the governor stepped in two years ago and saved the MTA from the financial cliff, and it was a combination of funding streams that supported that. Compared to any other transit system across the nation, she made sure that MTA was in much better financial shape, but we have to keep making investments. It's a very old system.

Brian Lehrer: I think his fundamental question is, does this further turn over the streets of Midtown to wealthier people? Because the ones who are going to be dissuaded are the ones for whom the $9 charge, or whatever it is at a given moment, depending on what kind of vehicle you're in. Those are the ones who are going to have pause and switch to mass transit or not come in at all, and it further privileges the privileged. That's the argument.

Kathryn Garcia: We really don't see it that way. It is not an us versus them situation. It is how we are all in it together to make sure that we're supporting mass transit. I would say that there are many people of all levels of income. It's one of the phenomenal things about our transit system, is people make decisions on how long it's going to take for them to get anywhere. New Yorkers almost always prioritize their time, no matter what their income level is. Even for small businesses who have to service folks in the central business district, working on an elevator, working as a plumber, they might be able to get some more calls per day because they're not locked in gridlock.

Brian Lehrer: One more call. I know you're not here as a lawyer for congestion pricing, but we'll see if you can answer a question from Tommy on the Lower East Side who says he's a plaintiff in one of the lawsuits against it that's still pending. Tommy, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Tommy: Hi. Thank you very much, Brian. Ms. Garcia, I have been following this since its inception. I hope you've read the environmental assessment and understand that according to the MTA, there are numerous environmental justice communities who are going to be losers, including the Lower East Side. The EA continues to say that traffic will increase on the FDR Drive from 10th Street to the Brooklyn Bridge because that will be a free zone on the FDR under this plan.

I'm wondering why we are getting no mitigation. For example, in the Bronx, they're getting an asthma center. Other people are getting other mitigation. The Lower East Side is an official environmental justice community, just like the Bronx and other communities. Why are we being ignored? Our air quality will diminish. It will not get better.

Brian Lehrer: Ms. Garcia, how would you answer Tommy's question?

Kathryn Garcia: I very much appreciate Tommy's question. The MTA has funding for mitigation. They have worked hard with the South Bronx to do a variety of investments there already, but there is other opportunities for us to engage with environmental justice areas. I can't speak specifically to his particular issue since we're in litigation with him, and I appreciate him flagging that. We know that there are other census tracts that we will have to do mitigation work on, both in New York State and in New Jersey, and we're prepared to do that.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. Well, hopefully, that's hopeful for the people on the Lower East Side. We're just about out of time, except that I have to ask you because another mayoral election is coming up and you came pretty close to being elected in 2021. Everybody else seems to be running for mayor. Are you going to do it again?

Kathryn Garcia: No. That is not my plan.

Brian Lehrer: Kathryn Garcia, now the director of state operations for Governor Hochul, joining us on the latest developments on congestion pricing, which, barring Tommy's or anybody else's lawsuit, is going to take effect Sunday, January 5th. Thanks so much for coming on, Ms. Garcia. We really appreciate it.

Kathryn Garcia: It was great to talk to you again. Thank you so much.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Stay with us.

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