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Amina Srna: This is The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Producer Amina Srna, filling in for Brian today. Now we'll look at the news coming out of Long Island's Nassau County. Focusing on how police departments will work with Immigration and Customs Enforcement during the Trump era. Last week, Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman unveiled a new program authorizing 10 police detectives to work with ICE to arrest and deport local undocumented residents accused of committing a crime. Let's take a listen to his explanation of the program's goals at a press conference held last Tuesday.

Bruce Blakeman: We are partnering with ICE to accomplish two things. Number one, we are going to cross, designate, and embed Nassau County police detectives with ICE for the purposes of picking up targeted illegal migrants who've committed crimes, and then we will be detaining them in the jail as part of a short-term detainment program, at which time then ICE will find either a permanent detainment facility or they will simply deport the illegal migrants. I want to stress that this program is about illegal migrants who have committed crimes. This isn't about raids. This is targeted enforcement of our laws based here in the state of New York, people who have committed crimes here and have violated federal laws by being in the United States illegally.

Amina Srna: Joining me now to share her reporting on the news coming out of Nassau County is Bahar Ostadan, Nassau County politics reporter at Newsday. Bahar, thanks for joining us.

Bahar Ostadan: Thanks for having me.

Amina Srna: Can you start off by explaining what's changed in Nassau County's policy regarding the police department aiding ICE? What was the policy before Executive Blakeman made this announcement last week and what is it now?

Bahar Ostadan: Absolutely. For years, ICE officers have been coming into the New York City area making arrests, right? In many cases, local police departments, like the Nassau County Police Department, like the NYPD, may accompany ICE on some of these arrest operations, but typically they're not making the arrests themselves. As of last week, Nassau County has joined this sort of enhanced federal program under ICE that deputizes local police to arrest and jail people without legal status in this country. Now, this isn't a new program. There's over 170 counties across the US that have joined this program since the late '90s. 80% of them, though, are in the south.

Nassau County is rare, not only in that it's joined this program as a blue state, as New York specifically, but also Nassau County has one of the largest police forces in the country. The backdrop here is Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman, who we just heard, has been a loyal Trump ally for years. He was very quick to jump on the president's mass deportation agenda, and he's not the only one. There have been 35 new counties that have applied to participate in this ICE program since Trump took office last month.

Amina Srna: To your note about this being a program in a blue state, Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman called this program also the first kind of its size in the United States. Is that accurate? Are there other counties in New York State or around the country aiding ICE to a similar degree?

Bahar Ostadan: He is accurate in saying that. Yes. There's only one other county in New York, that's Rensselaer County, upstate, that has participated in this program, that was as of 2020. Nassau County is the second in New York State. Part of the reason for that is, there are legal questions being raised by experts, by civil liberties advocates, by immigration attorneys, about to what extent this may violate New York State law. The crux of that question is, living in the United States, even after entering illegally, is not a crime. It's a civil violation. While ICE officers can arrest people based on civil immigration violations, New York State law prohibits local police from doing so.

New York State Attorney General Tish James issued a memo last month after Trump took office encouraging local police departments across New York not to join this program, which I should say is called the 287(g) program. The attorney general said it's sort of, "unsettled" how this will hold up in court.

Amina Srna: Listeners, are any of you police officers within Nassau County? How do you feel about your new role as maybe an extension of ICE? How is this news being received by your fellow officers or residents from Nassau County? Help us report this story. Are you, any of your family members, or your neighbors undocumented? What effect has this news had on your community? Call or text us now at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. Actually, we are already getting some calls. Let's go to Sonia in Port Washington. Hey, Sonia, you're on WNYC.

Sonia: Hi. Thanks so much, Bahar, and thanks so much for reporting on this issue. I'm an activist in Port Washington. I'm also an educator. What I'm seeing is that people are really scared. The kids are not going to school, people are not getting groceries. A lot of our grocery stores feel like ghost towns right now. We're really concerned that people are not able to get the services that they need. If you look at the statistics on crime among immigrants, it's very low. In fact, it's lower than people who are born in the United States. The fact that Bruce Blakeman is doing this, is dangerous for everybody. For citizens and for immigrants alike.

Amina Srna: Thank you so much for your call, Sonia. Bahar, what were you hearing in Sonia's call?

Bahar Ostadan: Yes, I appreciate you calling, Sonia. I do want to echo something you said, which is that there's no indication, according to studies, that an undocumented migrant is any more likely to commit a violent crime than anyone else. Just sort of another data point is, there are about 100,000 undocumented immigrants on Long Island. That's an estimate from 2019. I think, Sonia, you raise an interesting point, which is something I've heard from several immigration attorneys, is the founding purpose of these federal partnerships with local police was originally to target what they said were dangerous criminals. People accused of committing violent crimes.

What we're talking about now, according to Blakeman, he doesn't want to distinguish between violent and nonviolent crimes, he said. The Washington Post did an investigation several years ago that found that counties who do participate in this program saw a spike in arrests for low level crimes. I think some advocates, and perhaps yourself, are asking the question of, say police officer arrests someone for a low level crime like public drinking, public urination, that person would otherwise be released with just a ticket. That person now faces the threat of being jailed and transported to an ICE detention center or deported.

Amina Srna: Although Executive Blakeman said this program will target criminals, as you've been saying, undocumented people in the vicinity may also become targets. Here's a clip of Blakeman explaining this further.

Bruce Blakeman: If there are people in those targeted enforcements that are illegally in that house with that MS-13 gang banger and their name is checked, yes, we will be detaining them along with ICE.

Amina Srna: I think we have a caller that is going to this concern. Let's go to Sharon in Queens. Hi, Sharon, you're on WNYC.

Sharon: Hi. My daughter works in the school system in Nassau County. The big problem now is that kids are disappearing out of the school system, because their parents are pulling them out and hiding. It's a big problem to find them after they pull them out. There's no record of where they go. I'm just worried about the effect that it has upon people that are just scared and just reacting, because it's like a raid and they don't understand their rights in terms of they come to my house, they'll take my kids, or they'll take someone in the house, and they'll take me with them.

Amina Srna: Bahar, any reactions? Thank you so much for your call, Sharon.

Bahar Ostadan: Sharon, yes, thank you for calling. That's an interesting point. I think in addition to people clearly, what it sounds like from our callers today, are scared of going to school, of going to the grocery store. Something that critics of the program have said is in some ways a program like this can threaten public safety, because perhaps people will be scared to call 911 to report a crime. Perhaps people will be scared to cooperate with police as a witness of a crime.

Now, I should say that Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman has said Nassau County residents can be assured they can call 911 without being asked for their immigration or citizenship status, they can cooperate with police without sharing their immigration status, but clearly, immigrants are still afraid.

Amina Srna: Bahar, Blakeman emphasized that this program is not about raids and will focus on those who've committed crimes. What is the significance of that distinction?

Bahar Ostadan: Essentially, what Blakeman has said is, "We're not going to go around and stop people on the street asking for their immigration status and detaining them. We are going to enforce immigration law, or help ICE enforce immigration law on people who are accused of committing nonimmigration-related crimes." The example they've gave, I'll just give an example in simple terms. Say a Nassau County police officer arrests someone for a burglary or a robbery out in the street or at a store. They'll bring that person back to the local precinct, and they say they'll run a background check.

If it comes back that that person doesn't have legal status in the country, the police officer will call ICE. If ICE is not immediately able to come and detain that person or deport that person, Nassau County will tap one of its 10 newly sworn in special police detectives to jail that person for up to 72 hours, they say, in one of the newly allocated local jail cells in Nassau County. The executive has set aside 50 jail cells exactly for this purpose.

Now, I think the question that becomes a little bit tricky is, say you bring someone in based on allegations, accusations of a crime they would otherwise make bail or otherwise be released on a ticket. Is it legal, under New York State law, to detain that person just because they're undocumented, even for 72 hours. I should say that Blakeman has told me, according to his lawyers, the program is kosher under New York and federal law, but like I said, the attorney general has raised some questions already.

Amina Srna: We have a police officer in Nassau County calling in. Andrew, in Nassau County. Hi, you're on WNYC. Thank you for your call.

Andrew: Hi, how are you? I just wanted to talk about the initial question that she asked. She said she wanted to know what police officers in Nassau County are feeling. I gave you guys my name because I'm not afraid to say it. There's a very toxic and, I feel, racist culture in many police departments in America, where they were very happy with this new order, and they feel that there's too many immigrants, and they feel that if they continue, that they'll destroy the city. It's basically a form of dehumanization. It's a way to describe these people as nothing but alcoholics and drunks.

I just feel like if this continues, this pattern of dehumanization, it will take us to a bad place. I come from a Palestinian family, so I understand where that leads. It's very scary for me, my friends, and others to see how this is going. I'm not afraid to say that and give my name because I've made it public that where many of these police departments are going is very sad.

Amina Srna: Andrew, thank you so much for your transparency there. Bahar, have you been able to-- anything you want to say to Andrew, or have you been able to talk to other police officers in Nassau County?

Bahar Ostadan: Andrew, I would just say, please, you can contact me securely. My phone number and email information is online. What I will say, regarding something Andrew brought up, is I've heard from Nassau County officials that they've wanted to join this federal program with ICE under Biden, but there just wasn't as much of an appetite as there is, as we've seen under Trump. There were actually no new counties who signed on to this federal partnership with ICE during the entire Biden administration. As I said, since Trump took office, 35 new counties have signed up just in the last month.

Amina Srna: You have spoken to us about the role of the 10 detectives within the Nassau County police as detaining undocumented immigrants for a period of time. What happens afterwards?

Bahar Ostadan: As it's been explained to me by Blakeman and other officials, those 10 detectives will be sworn in by ICE and undergo training in the coming weeks. As they've explained it to me, these 10 detectives can operate, essentially, as an ICE officer would. As we've talked about, I think there's a question that remains, of whether that's going to hold up under state law and in state courts. Certainly what the police department is saying as of now is that these 10 detectives, they can use to jail people on immigration violations for up to 72 hours until ICE themselves can come and either deport that person or transport them to a long-term federal detention site.

Amina Srna: I'm not sure if you would know the answer, but are there any long-term sites on Nassau County?

Bahar Ostadan: That's a great question.

Amina Srna: Maybe not. We'll follow up with you afterwards.

Bahar Ostadan: Great.

Amina Srna: Have there been any reports of arrest or deportation since Nassau County enacted this policy last week? I realize it's short term.

Bahar Ostadan: That's a great question. Nassau County officials, I think, notably have declined to share information on deportation since the program took effect. What I have been told is that the 10 police detectives have not yet been sworn in, so I believe it's possible the program hasn't quite kicked off just yet. Certainly, that's a question I'll be asking. How many arrests have been made that led to detention based on immigration violations? How many transfers of custody are going to happen to ICE? Of course, how many deportations are going to be born as a result of this?

Now, I think I should say this program, like I said, has existed since the late '90s. These sorts of local police partnerships with ICE skyrocketed after 9/11. By 2013, local police became the source of more than half of deportations within the US borders. The partnerships were scaled back under Obama because there were findings of rampant racial profiling, to Andrew's point, and abuse of authority. They rose again during Trump's first presidency, and we see again, they're rising in his second.

Amina Srna: We heard from a mother of an educator. Here's a text. "I'm an adjunct professor in Nassau County. Will ICE agents go onto public college campuses into classrooms? What should a teacher do if an ICE agent comes to the classroom?" As we were speaking about before, Blakeman has said this is not about raids, but anything you wanted to maybe add to this caller or to this listener's question?

Bahar Ostadan: I guess I would just say that without having read the agreement, because Nassau has not made it public yet, it's hard to say exactly what they're authorized to do. Certainly, we're going to be following up to get that agreement public. Under New York State law, ICE officers have to have a signed judicial warrant to go into someone's home and make an arrest. They can't just knock on the door and do whatever they need to do. I would certainly read up on that.

In terms of now ICE partnering with the police department under this new program, based on what they've said, it seems like they can only stop, question, arrest, and jail people where they have probable cause that a crime was committed. I think that's really what we need to be focusing on here.

Amina Srna: Just to make it abundantly clear, because we're getting a couple of texts asking the same thing, is it merely an arrest for a crime as opposed to a conviction of a crime?

Bahar Ostadan: Right. That's an excellent question. Arresting someone and jailing them and handing them over to ICE based on accusations of a crime could get dangerous from a civil liberties perspective very quickly, right? There are plenty of examples of police who arrest someone perhaps based off of a mistaken identity, or who arrest someone based on allegations that are later found to be completely unfounded. Really, what happens as part of this process, according to immigration attorneys, is one's right to a fair judicial process, a trial, is sort of thrown out the window.

If you're brought in because a police officer is alleging you've done something that, say, you didn't do, it could be a matter of 48, 72 hours that you're in ICE custody and perhaps even deported.

Amina Srna: Nassau County is big. Are there any towns within Nassau County that have gone against this program and will not utilize their police forces to detain undocumented immigrants accused of a crime?

Bahar Ostadan: That's right. There's the Nassau County Police Department, which is the unit, the law enforcement unit that's partnering with ICE, but then there are smaller police departments within Nassau County. As far as we understand, they're not a part of this program. They haven't said, one way or another, how they'll fit into this. I think it's a great question and one that I'll follow up on.

Amina Srna: You have spoken a bit about what some advocacy groups have been saying about this policy. Do you want to highlight some of their primary concerns, or maybe highlight who they are and what they're doing?

Bahar Ostadan: Definitely. The Nassau County Director for the New York Civil Liberties Union has said there's a reason that most New York counties don't partner with ICE. That is because it erodes trust with the community. I've had immigration attorneys who've told me police rely on undocumented immigrants to bust gangs, dangerous gangs, for example. If people start to be afraid to call on the police or to cooperate with police to enhance public safety as a result of this policy, it defeats the purpose. Other advocates have told me there's a reason for the clear separation of power between the federal and the state government, right?

I had one attorney tell me, "Well, if someone doesn't pay their taxes to the IRS, does that mean Nassau County police should launch an investigation into them?" They told me that, "I pay Nassau County taxes, and I want my police that I'm funding to be keeping me safe from drunk drivers, from muggings, not enforcing federal immigration laws." I should also say, and I believe Gothamist has covered this, is that there are progressive state lawmakers who are pushing for what's called the New York for All Act that was introduced in 2020, which would block local police from asking people about their citizenship status. It would also prohibit local police from transferring custody to ICE without a judicial warrant.

Amina Srna: We will have to leave it there for today. My guest was Bahar Ostadan, Nassau County politics reporter at Newsday. Thank you so much for your time.

Bahar Ostadan: Thanks for having me.

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