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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Some follow up on a couple of things in the presidential race now. One is Taylor Swift's endorsement of Kamala Harris after the debate on Tuesday night. We didn't really talk about that yesterday, as we centered issues that came up in the debate, but political analysts say, the Taylor Swift endorsement, more than other celebrities, could actually make something of a difference in a very close race.

One reason is that, with her many millions of followers on social media, fans of hers who might not be following politics very much at all, might get just enough involvement, and just enough motivation to cast a ballot, and that would likely be for Harris. Since we have the luxury of time on this long-form show, here is Taylor Swift's Instagram endorsement in full. I think most of what you heard is, she did this, and maybe one or two lines.

I thought you would be interested to hear if Taylor Swift is trying to affect the presidential race outcome. What did she actually say? Taylor Swift wrote this on Instagram. "Like many of you, I watched the debate tonight. If you haven't already, now is a great time to do your research on the issues at hand, and the stances these candidates take on the topics that matter to you the most.

As a voter, I make sure to watch and read everything I can about their proposed policies and plans for this country. Recently, I was made aware that AI of me falsely endorsing Donald Trump's presidential run was posted to his site. It really conjured up my fears around AI, and the dangers of spreading misinformation. It brought me to the conclusion that I need to be very transparent about my actual plans for this election.

As a voter, the simplest way to combat misinformation is with the truth. I will be casting my vote for Kamala Harris and Tim Walz in the 2024 Presidential Election. I'm voting for Kamala Harris, because she fights for the rights and causes, I believe, need a warrior to champion them. I think she is a steady-handed, gifted leader, and I believe we can accomplish so much more in this country, if we are led by calm, and not chaos.

I was so heartened and impressed by her selection of running mate, Tim Walz, who has been standing up for LGBTQ+ rights, IVF, and a woman's right to her own body for decades. I've done my research, and I've made my choice. Your research is all yours to do, and the choice is yours to make. I also want to say, especially to first-time voters, remember that in order to vote, you have to be registered. I also find, it's much easier to vote early. I'll link where to register, and find early voting dates and info in my story. With love and hope, Taylor Swift."

There's that. Thought you'd be interested. Pretty thoughtful, actually, making her endorsement, but telling people to do their own research, and come to their own conclusions, and reminding people haven't voted before to register, so very interesting, right? Will it make a difference to the outcome? Time will tell. Now, we'll take a closer look at one of the topics that came up in Tuesday night's presidential debate, and that Taylor Swift raised in that Instagram post, abortion rights.

We touched on the topic yesterday in our more general debate review, but the abortion rights section of the debate was substantial and multi-layered, so we'll take a closer look now. Donald Trump led with a lie about the popularity of his appointing Supreme Court justices who would overturn Roe v. Wade.

Donald Trump: Every legal scholar, every Democrat, every Republican, liberal, conservative, they all wanted this issue to be brought back to the states where the people could vote.

Brian Lehrer: That is false. A Pew poll shortly after the decision in 2022, found the public disapproved of removing abortion as a constitutionally protected right by 16 points, 57% to 41%. Also false, and, of course, getting much more attention. The reason Trump gave for his plan to vote "no" on an abortion rights referendum in Florida, where he votes, that would overturn the state's six-week ban.

Donald Trump: Her Vice Presidential pick says, "Abortion in the ninth month is absolutely fine." He also says, "Execution after birth." It's execution, no longer abortion, because the baby is born, is okay, and that's not okay with me. Hence, the vote.

Brian Lehrer: ABC Moderator Linsey Davis did the real-time fact check, as she transitioned to Kamala Harris's turn to answer the question.

Linsey Davis: There is no state in this country where it is legal to kill a baby after it's born. Madam Vice President, I want to get your response to President Trump.

Kamala Harris: Well, as I said, you're going to hear a bunch of lies, and that's not actually a surprising fact. Let's understand how we got here. Donald Trump hand-selected three members of the United States Supreme Court with the intention that they would undo the protections of Roe v. Wade, and they did exactly as he intended. Now, in over 20 states, there are Trump abortion bans, which make it criminal for a doctor, or nurse to provide healthcare. In one state, it provides prison for life.

Brian Lehrer: Harris failed to answer a direct question put to her by Linsey Davis.

Linsey Davis: If I could just get a "yes", or "no", because you're running mate JD Vance has said that you would veto, if it did come to your desk?

Donald Trump: Well, I didn't discuss it with JD. In all fairness, JD-- I don't mind if he has a certain view, but I think he was speaking for me, but I really didn't.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, okay. I think that was the wrong clip. Let's see. Do we have the one where Linsey Davis is asking Harris? We'll come back to that, but she asked Harris what reproductive rights' restrictions, if any, she would endorse, and Harris stuck the question.

Amanda Becker is with us now, Washington correspondent for the new site, The 19th, named for the 19th Amendment, which gave women the right to vote in this country. Amanda Becker is also the author of a new book called You Must Stand Up: The Fight for Abortion Rights in Post-Dobbs America. Amanda, thanks for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Amanda Becker: Thank you so much for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Can you react first to Trump's false assertion that the idea of throwing out the 1973 Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision that established a constitutional right to abortion, that overturning Roe in 2022, was wildly popular? I cited one survey result from right at that moment. You reported on The 19th about multiple other ones, right?

Amanda Becker: There's not a single piece of polling that I've seen that, that decision was popular among the majority of Americans. What it has created is a situation that's chaos across this country, as medical providers, patients, and courts try to figure out what it means to have this patchwork of laws now.

Brian Lehrer: Harris retorted with a phrase she's been using a lot, as we heard there, "Trump abortion bans." Trump's approach here is to claim that he's very much-- Well, he's-- Okay, so he's on the wrong side of this issue right now. I think everybody already acknowledges that, in terms of its likely political impact on him, so his approach is to say, "All I did was turn it back to the states, which was popular, and proper. What each state does with that power, no matter how cruel, is not my responsibility." Is that how you hear his positioning?

Amanda Becker: It is. I mean, look, he doesn't want to not take credit for that decision in Dobbs, and the court that made it, because he installed three of those justices, because he views that as one of his greatest achievements. He ran for the presidency promising to do that, and then he delivered on it. Now, he's in a situation where I think he has realized, and certainly, Republicans more broadly have realized, that the party has a real problem when it comes to the abortion positions that they're supporting, and the fact that a majority of people in this country do not want them.

They're in the middle of not only a national race right now, but many, many statewide races across this country, where the electorate feels different in terms of the pool of electorate that's going to be voting on those races, and so, it's a move to have it both ways, and say, "Yes, I did this, but I didn't do this because I didn't want people to have access to abortion. I did it because people all wanted the states to be figuring this out." It's kind of a move to have it both ways.

I've said before, if you look across a variety of things Donald Trump has said about abortion and reproductive rights, including IVF, contraception, he's not only trying to have it both ways, he's trying to have it always.

Brian Lehrer: Harris says, they are Trump abortion bans, not because he supports every harsh law like in Florida, but because he made all this possible. That's the politics of that phrase that we're hearing constantly from Harris now. That, by the way, I don't think Joe Biden ever said, or came close to saying, "Trump abortion ban."

Amanda Becker: Well, Biden had trouble saying the word "abortion". It made him very uncomfortable. He said it only every now and then. It was not a word that he used with any frequency, and it gets much harder to message on something politically right, if you can't say a key word, and so, what Kamala Harris is doing, what the Vice President is doing by using the word, "Trump abortion ban," is reminding people of the process, and the path that was what led up to the overturning of Roe v. Wade.

If you look at polling, sometimes, there are voters out there who, because Dobbs was decided during Biden's presidency, are not in their minds, immediately tying that to Donald Trump. They're saying, "It happened during Biden," and so, that is reminding people, and making that connection right off the bat that Trump was responsible for the justices who decided that case.

Brian Lehrer: That brings us to Trump's answer on the Florida referendum. Remind us, what is the law in Florida, and how would this November ballot question change it?

Amanda Becker: Yes, so Florida has the six-week ban in place, so you cannot get an abortion after that period. That is, of course, before many people know they are pregnant. It is very, very early in a pregnancy. Right now, there is a group working to pass a ballot measure in Florida that would add abortion protections to the state's constitution, and that up to the point of feudal viability, and that would essentially overturn that six-week ban.

Brian Lehrer: You mentioned Trump trying to have it all ways on this. This is also, by the way, listeners, one of the main topics of my post in our newsletter that'll go out today about the presidential debate. My working title as of now, before we finalize it, is "Trump's Pretzel Logic on Abortion." You'll see how we go at that.

On that point, Amanda, a couple of weeks ago, asked how he would vote, since he's a Florida voter with his official residence at Mar-a-Lago, he first said, "I'll be voting against a six-week ban." He said before that he didn't support a six-week ban. He thinks it's too short, but the next day, under pressure, I guess, from anti-abortion groups, he clarified to say, he would be voting against the referendum.

He says he's against a six-week ban, but he's voting against the referendum that would overturn it. We just heard the clip in which he claimed to be voting against it, because Democrats are for abortion rights in the ninth month, or even executing the baby, as he put it, after birth. Linsey Davis from ABC fact-check him on the truth that, no state allows killing of a born baby, but Linsey Davis seemed to be ready for that fact check, so has Trump's false claim of executing babies under abortion laws, been something that he says regularly?

Amanda Becker: This is something we're hearing from a lot of people within the anti-abortion movement, and within the right wing of the Republican Party, and it is just simply not true. There are cases where babies are born and die moments after birth, and that could be what they're referring to, but those are cases in which, that wasn't a viable human life, and it was, these babies were delivered.

Essentially, palliative care is given to these babies in their fleeting lives. That, for any parent who has experienced that, is the worst day of their life. I think it's probably very hurtful to a lot of people across this country to hear politicians talking about it in that way.

Brian Lehrer: We did get this text from a listener who wrote, "They'll let the baby die, if a live birth happens during an abortion. That's what Trump is talking about." That text seems to refer to things like this. I'm reading, for example, from the Raleigh, North Carolina News Observer, that newspaper from an article in 2019. It's about a bill there called the Born Alive Abortion Survivors act.

The article said, "North Carolina's Senate Bill 359 would require medical professionals to provide life-saving care, specifically, to infants who survive an abortion, and to report instances of such births. Medical professionals and hospital employees who don't comply with the law, could face felony charges, prison time, and up to $250,000 in fines." That quote from that newspaper five years ago. Is that a real thing? Fetuses that survive an abortion, as in effect, born babies, and a debate about their rights?

Amanda Becker: If you talk to medical professionals, this is just not something that is happening. There's versions of that bill, by the way, in many states across this country, including the US Congress, there are situations where, say you go into labor early, and you deliver a baby, and it doesn't survive. There are-- The vast majority of abortions in this country. Only 1% of abortions happen after 21 weeks.

Even after 21 weeks, a fetus is not viable until between 24 and 26 weeks' gestation, so any fetus that is born before that time, is not going to be able to live outside of the womb. To revive it, would only be prolonging a life that is going to end.

Brian Lehrer: Clarify, what would Florida's abortion referendum actually allow, that Trump is now going to vote "no" on as a Florida voter?

Amanda Becker: That referendum would protect people's right to get an abortion up until that point of fetal viability, and so, in the first two trimesters of pregnancy, essentially, it would protect that right.

Brian Lehrer: Now, let me play the clip, because it's relevant to this, that we meant to play earlier of Linsey Davis asking Kamala Harris in the debate a relevant question, and Harris ducking it. Here we go.

Linsey Davis: Vice President Harris, I want to give you your time to respond, but I do want to ask, would you support any restrictions on a woman's right to an abortion?

Kamala Harris: I absolutely support reinstating the protections of Roe v. Wade. As you rightly mentioned, nowhere in America is a woman carrying a pregnancy to term, and asking for an abortion. That is not happening. It's insulting to the women of America.

Brian Lehrer: Does your reporting indicate that Harris either does, or doesn't today, or ever, over the course of her political career, support any restrictions on abortion?

Amanda Becker: Here's what we always hear from the Vice President, which is what we just heard in that debate clip, that she supports Roe v. Wade, reinstating those standards.

Brian Lehrer: Which is also the Florida referendum, right? That means up until viability to live outside the womb, roughly, as you report, 24 to 26 weeks?

Amanda Becker: Yes. Now, there are states that do not have that limit on-- It's only a handful, but there are some that do not have any sort of gestational limit on when you can get an abortion. That, theoretically, could occur up to, or after fetal viability in this handful of states, they are the exception, not the norm. The reality is, if you look at the data of what medical procedures are actually happening, this is just not something that is occurring with any sort of regularity.

It could often be in a case of a severe, severe fetal abnormality, or something that has gone wrong in a pregnancy, or a parent whose life is in danger, and so, while she certainly did sidestep that question by giving her standard answer of, "I support the protections that were provided by Roe, that would be up to fetal viability," she didn't weigh in on the overall question, of course, of whether she would support any at all.

Partially though, I must say, is she was interrupted by Trump halfway through that answer. The moderator, therefore, never got to circle back, and get her onto the record with a "yes", or a "no".

Brian Lehrer: As we're taking a closer look at abortion rights, as it came up as an issue in some detail in the Tuesday night presidential debate with Amanda Becker, Washington correspondent for the news site The 19th, and author of the new book, You Must Stand Up: The Fight for Abortion Rights in Post-Dobbs America.

Can take one or two phone calls, or additional texts, if you have a question, especially to clarify what Trump's or Harris's positions on this issue might be. I don't think we want to get into a call, or abortion debate about what's right or what's wrong in this case, this political analysis of the presidential candidates, and you see how they line up consistently or not, with your moral lights.

212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, if you have something relevant. Now, we get, Amanda, to the question of a national abortion rights bill, or a national ban. Harris said in that clip, she would sign a bill restoring the Roe v. Wade standard nationally. Is there such a bill in either the House, or the Senate?

Amanda Becker: There is. The former President Trump was right that, there's probably not the numbers in either party to either protect, or prohibit abortion in any sort of federal legislation right now, specifically, because of the filibuster in the Senate. I think unless they got rid of the filibuster, that is very unlikely for either party to get the numbers they need in the Senate to get that to happen, so, on that, Trump was absolutely correct in pointing that out.

Now, I do think that voters still deserve an answer as to whether they support a federal ban on abortion, because legislation is not the only way that, that could happen. It could be done through more court cases. It could be done through rulemaking and regulation with administrations to make it effectively very, very difficult to get abortions across this country. I think that, while Trump is correct that Harris probably doesn't have the numbers to do it, and he doesn't need to worry about whether he would veto it, because it's not going to get to his desk. The underlying question about, is this something you support, no matter the path? That is the question that I think we should be asking of the people running for office, and getting their answers on that.

Brian Lehrer: That brings us back to Trump tying himself in knots over this issue, because even though he emphasizes that this is now a state issue, that that's the entire reason that he should be credited, rather than blamed on this issue, because it was the right thing to do. He would argue, to overturn Roe and turn it back to the states, he refused to rule out signing a national ban, if Congress sends one to his desk. Here's the key moment of that exchange again with ABC News Moderator Linsey Davis.

Linsey Davis: If I could just get a "yes", or "no", because you're running mate, JD Vance, has said that you would veto, if you did come to your desk.

Donald Trump: Well, I didn't discuss it with JD, in all fairness, JD, and I don't mind if he has a certain view, but I think he was speaking for me, but I really didn't.

Brian Lehrer: Amanda, what's going on there? He says, it's for the states, but he made a big point there to keep the door open to signing a national ban, when it would have been so easy for him to say, "I wouldn't sign a national ban." I'm confused.

Amanda Becker: That's the thing. I mean, if there's no danger of it reaching his desk, in his opinion, then if he would veto it, he should feel free to say that with little to no worry about any repercussions. By refusing to answer that question, I think it's fair to extrapolate that it's an open question what he would do, if something like that was within his power. I think that, that's something that voters are going to want to know in this last stretch before the election.

Brian Lehrer: How did all this from the debate go over and swing vote America? I saw you wrote that David Plouffe, campaign manager to former President Obama, who's advising Harris's campaign, wrote on X that there was a, quote, "Forty point difference with undecided voters on their abortion answers. Widest gap I've ever seen in debate dials." David Plouffe wrote. How-- Are you seeing any numbers yourself?

Amanda Becker: I mean, I don't think we have any updated polling since then, because it's been such a short period. Certainly, you know, I shared a map on Twitter yesterday. I am actually currently in Ohio, as we're talking, and during that exchange in the debate, or actually for the duration of the debate, I think if you looked at Google Analytics, the top searched issue in the entire country, except for in Ohio, and we can talk about that why briefly in a second.

In the entire country, other than Ohio, the top searched issue in the debate was abortion. If you pair that with, that what you just noted, a 40-point gap, and the fact that a strong majority of Americans support abortion rights, I think that indicates a very high level of interest in what the two of them were saying about abortion. Of course, Trump chose to focus the bulk of his answers on this topic on a disproven lie about Democrats wanting to execute babies.

Brian Lehrer: Stephen [unintelligible 00:24:11] Kitchen wants to relate this to a Congressional race, not the presidential race, where it's a swing district just north of New York City, where Republican Mike Lawler is currently the incumbent, being challenged by Democratic former Congressman Mondaire Jones. Steve, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Steve: Yes, I just want to say, Lawler stated the issue in one sentence that clears up all of the confusion, which is, take that Florida constitutional amendment. It provides for availability of abortion up to viability, and thereafter for the life of the mother or health. What he said was, "You have elective abortion up to viability, and thereafter for the life or health of the mother." This is--

Brian Lehrer: He's against it. Is Lawler against the Florida referendum?

Steve: No, he's pro abortion. He's running in Westchester, in New York, and he's a Republican. He clearly stated what the issue is. We don't have people getting abortions in the eighth month, because they can't fit in their prom dresses, which is one Republican said years ago, it's simple. In other words, the whole thing, this tail wagging the dog thing about abortion in the eighth month, and all that kind of stuff.

Now, most abortions, 99%, are when they're needed for the decision of a woman to control her own body, and her own life, and their family, and all that.

Brian Lehrer: Steve, thank you very much. One more on this. Christina in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Christina. We have about 30 seconds for you.

Christina: Hi, I've been so heartened to hear about all the success on the abortion referendum, the state. I worry that most voters, especially, those who are considering splitting the ticket, voting for Trump at the top of the ticket, and then voting in support of these referenda. I worry that people don't understand that a national abortion ban would supersede all of the state protections. Do you feel that, that messaging is getting out properly to people?

Brian Lehrer: Amanda?

Amanda Becker: I think that's something to pay attention to. Here's the thing, I do think that voters have an understanding of this issue that they didn't two years ago, or five years ago. I mean, I just said, I'm having this conversation from Ohio. Last year, Ohio passed a ballot measure. This is a red-leaning state. This is a state that backed Trump. This is a state that produced Senator JD Vance, who's now his running mate.

They voted to protect abortion, and they also overcame efforts by the state legislature a few months ahead of that, to make it more difficult to even pass a ballot measure, and so, I think there's a degree of sophistication we're seeing among the electorate on this topic that we haven't thus far, but it's still going to require a lot of outreach, and a lot of education on behalf of the abortion rights movement.

Brian Lehrer: To the earlier caller's point, is the health of the mother in the abortion rights referendum for after viability, such an elastic clause that it, basically, allows any woman and their doctor to say, "Well, this woman is pregnant, but she's getting really depressed about it, but it's the eighth month, or a minor," other kind of health issue. That's what the critics in the anti-abortion movement say.

Amanda Becker: That is what the critics say. Look, we don't know how a lot of these exceptions work until it happens, because we've never had to have [chuckles] bills like this before, right? Because Roe protected this right before. When I speak with medical providers, which I do pretty often, including for my book, and just my day-to-day work, they are saying, "These are conversations and decisions that are-- Rarely come up in my practice, if at all."

I think that, for people who want to protect abortion up until a certain point, say you have fetal viability, and leave exceptions for health, or life, or rape, or incest, I think there's a measure of trust that they're going to have to have in people, the people who can become pregnant, that they are going to use those exceptions in ways that comport with the intention, and trust their reading of their health with their physicians, and their medical care team.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for going through the immediate politics of abortion, as reflected in Tuesday night's presidential debate with us in such detail. I want to give you in our last minute a chance to promote your new book, which is called You Must Stand Up: The Fight for Abortion Rights in Post-Dobbs America. I see you posted on X. What I realized when I sat down to write is, yes, the book is about Dobbs and abortion rights, but it's actually a story about democracy. Take our last minute and explain.

Amanda Becker: Yes, so this book is set in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, Phoenix, Arizona, Wisconsin, Ohio, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Maryland. What I realized is, the main characters are people working at clinics, but there's also a lot of lawyers. There's medical students fighting to get the education they need to provide abortion care as part of their practices. There are women and mothers in Kentucky who go out door knocking, and canvassing for the first time related to a ballot measure there.

I think what I realized is, these are people who are taking an active role in participating in democracy, and also tending to their democracy, because these abortion bans that are in place in half of the country right now, do not have, in most cases, majority support from the electorate to which it applies. I think that's a sign of democratic erosion in this country. I think that we're going to increasingly see the abortion rights movement aligned with the pro-democracy movement in this country.

Brian Lehrer: Amanda Becker, Washington correspondent for The 19th, and the author now of You Must Stand Up: The Fight for Abortion Rights in Post-Dobbs America. Yes, you said it takes place, or it's set in all those various places. I see that the chapter titles are largely those different places in America, where you tell all those stories, so I'm sure a lot of our listeners will be interested in that. Thank you very much. Again.

Amanda Becker: Thank you.

 

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