Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Tonight at 7, I'll be co-hosting a 90-minute special called Haiti on the Line with our public radio colleagues, Tim Padgett from WLRN in Miami and Saraya Wintersmith from GBH in Boston. They both join me now for a preview and to open up the phones for a few minutes here for Haitian and Haitian American listeners, as we'll do in longer form tonight. Tim Padgett is the Americas' editor for WLRN, covering Latin America, the Caribbean, and their key relationships with South Florida. Saraya Wintersmith covers Boston City Hall for GBH News and is the host of the What Is Owed podcast. Hi, Tim. Hi, Saraya. Thanks for doing some morning time with us before our evening show. Welcome to WNYC.

Tim Padgett: Hi, Brian. Good to be with you.

Saraya Wintersmith: Hi, Brian. Thanks for having us on.

Brian Lehrer: Haitian listeners, help us report this story and begin to set the scene for our more in-depth special tonight. How is the gang violence and the political crisis in Haiti affecting you personally or anyone you know? Call and let everybody else know more about this. 212-433-WNYC. What role, if any, would the United States play there now to perform the best service in your opinion? 212-433-WNYC. What's your reaction to the announcement that temporary protected status for hundreds of thousands of Haitians here will be ending?

This is certainly the big news in the community in the last few days. The announcement from the Trump administration that TPS (Temporary Protected Status) for hundreds of thousands of Haitians here will be ending, and deportation proceedings will be starting. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. What will you do if that affects you or someone you know? Immigration lawyers can call in too as well, but of course, first priority to any Haitian listeners. Haitian listeners, what is the media missing that you'd like us to discuss on tonight's show or here right now or more in the future?

What is the media missing? Haitian listeners, you tell us. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. We'll get a few calls in here this morning, and then we'll be doing 90 minutes of this tonight at 7 on our three stations in Boston, Miami, and New York. Tim, this will be a Boston, Miami, and New York special because these are the three cities with the biggest Haitian populations in the U.S. So how big is the Haitian community in Miami, and why did it become a population hub?

Tim Padgett: Well, you've got a little more than a million people of Haitian origin in the United States, and just about half of them live in Florida, especially South Florida. Not just in Miami in the enclave known as Little Haiti, but also in places like West Palm Beach in Palm Beach County, which is also a very large Haitian enclave. It obviously became the largest Haitian enclave in the United States simply as a matter of geography. When so many people began escaping the Duvalier dictatorship, for example, in the 1970s and 80s, this was the shortest route to the United States for them.

And that's why the community became so large here. And that flow of migration since then has just kept coming over the decades. And as I said, most of the migration that you will see coming to the United States ends up in Miami. Or, let's go back to the 1970s, 80s. The term "boat people" was essentially coined by the number of people coming in boats to escape the Duvalier dictatorship and other problems here in the Florida Keys.

Brian Lehrer: And of course, Florida is close to Haiti geographically, and the climate is not that different. So Saraya, how big is the Haitian community in Boston, all the way up there in the cold? And why did it become a population hub?

Saraya Wintersmith: All the way up here and in the cold. We think that there are about 55,000 Haitians living in the greater Boston metro area. That's per reporting from the Haitian Times. We're the third most behind you all in New York and Miami. Within the city proper, Haitians are the third-largest foreign-born population, with a little more than 16,000 people. That's according to data from our city planning department. And one of the big factors behind Haitians choosing Boston was our city's major Catholic presence. When we look at research, we see that the first big hubs were in the Dorchester neighborhood around two of the city's main Catholic parishes.

And then we saw Haitians eventually move out to other neighborhoods like Mattapan and then other cities across Massachusetts. Boston is also a healthcare hub, and a lot of migrants from Haiti come as nurses or doctors or they train to be healthcare professionals. It's a joke—if you know anyone of Haitian descent that's first or second generation, they will often joke with you that their parents don't want them to be anything but nurses or doctors. Recent data from our city planning department also says that Haitians make up a little more than 10% of our healthcare and personal care service workers in Boston. And so the opportunity in that industry has been a draw. It's also very close to New York, which, Brian, we know is a lovely place.

Brian Lehrer: Some people in Boston don't say that easily, so we appreciate that very much. Tim, what has some of the community reaction been to the announcement about rescinding TPS, and how many people might be affected in the Miami area?

Tim Padgett: Well, I think the overwhelming sentiment has been, you know, statements that we've seen calling it inhumane. There was one statement from political leaders here that called it a potential death sentence because you're talking about sending potentially half a million people who have enjoyed that protection from deportation since the catastrophic earthquake that struck Haiti in 2010. You're talking about sending these people back to a very violent, failed state, economically collapsed situation in Haiti, where they could be very, very vulnerable to harm, both physical and economic harm if they were to go back.

So the general sentiment here is that this really makes no earthly sense when you're talking about people who have established themselves here in the community. The Haitian community here in South Florida is very socially and economically vibrant, and there's just a feeling of befuddlement. Why would the Trump administration do this, knowing that back in Haiti, you've got gangs controlling almost all of the capital, Port-au-Prince, and much of the rest of the country? And these are very violent gangs. According to the UN, they committed more than 5,600 murders in Haiti last year, as well as a raft of other appalling crimes. So it's just, I think, astonishment more than anything else.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Here's Edgard in Wading River on Long Island. You're on WNYC. Hello, Edgard.

Edgard: Hello, Brian. Good morning, and thank you. I guess one of the topics that I don't hear too much in this discussion is how much, as Haitian immigrants, we contribute to the United States in terms of assimilation, in terms of economic contribution, in terms of education, in terms of making sure we assimilate to the society. I've been here for 42 years, and after high school, one of the first things that I did is to join the Navy. And not because I-- mind you, I was a full resident, so I didn't need the Navy to give me that.

And after that, I went to college. And I think I'm a contributing member to the society, and I'm not the only one, like any other immigrant group. When you come to this group, it's difficult for you to assimilate. So you start at the bottom. And with our tenacity, we continue to be useful and contributing members of this society. So I don't see why we should be singled out. Regardless of how we got here, as long as we're not criminals, I don't see how we should be making an example out of to send us back to a country where it's really miserable. I haven't been to this country in ages. But I know from what I'm seeing, it doesn't take a brain scientist to realize that there is a lot of misery going on.

Why would you do that? Where's the humanity? Why would you want to do that to people? What does that say about you when you do that to others? This is really unbelievable. And I know the people who voted for this president are not bad people. They're just getting bad information. They don't take the time to understand, to really process what they're getting. Maybe because they have too many bills to pay, maybe their healthcare is contributing to that. Maybe, you know, we don't care, but we should care because there is only one planet, and no one leaves this planet without them going six feet under.

Regardless of how much knowledge you have, more than me, regardless of how much more money you have, more than anyone else, regardless of whether you have the knowledge to go to Mars, it does not matter. We are all connected. So for you to do that to people is really inhuman. It's really bad. And I don't want to use words that sound like it's insulting, that's making people be on the defensive side. But I ask you, where is your compassion? I ask you to look within. This is not the way to do things. This is not the way to do it.

Brian Lehrer: And beyond that, we're getting a number of texts referring to a conversation we had on the show last week. I'll read you one of them. It says, "Trump is deporting refugee Haitians who are going back to a lawless country ruled by gangs. At the same time, white South Africans are being offered refugee status. The blatant racism is appalling," writes that listener. Were you aware of that contrast?

Edgard: Yes, I am aware of it, and I don't pay too much attention to that. And I'll tell you why. It's because, in my view, the reason why he's focusing on South Africa is because the influence of his second man, it's Musk. And that's why he's focusing on South Africa. Besides, I really don't think the people in South Africa will really pack their bags and come to the United States when they have something great going on. They're 10% of the population, and they own 70% of all the land. Why would they turn back and come to the United States and fight for-- because, you know, we have a democracy here up to now. So I don't see why they want to come back and be into that tug to decide where would they fit in our society. They do have money but still--

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much for your call. I really, really appreciate it. Good luck to you and your family. I want to read for our listeners some of the most recent Washington Post headlines of articles by one of our guests on the special tonight. And if you're just joining us, we're previewing a 90-minute special that WNYC, WLRN in Miami, and GBH in Boston are doing for Haitian listeners and everybody. But on the topic of Haiti and Haitian Americans, tonight from 7 to 8:30, one of our guests is going to be the Haitian journalist Widlore Mérancourt, who also writes for the Washington Post because the extremity of the situation doesn't get much attention in the U.S. given our own extreme situations these days.

So I want to read you some of these headlines from Widlore's recent reporting. Here are several from the last few months: "Gang reportedly leads massacre of older Haitians over voodoo claim." The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights on Monday said at least 184 people were killed, more than 120 of them over age 60. Another one, "At least 70 dead in Haiti gang attack, UN says." The victims in the attack in a town north of Port-au-Prince, included at least 10 women and three infants. The UN Human Rights Office said on Friday. "Kenyan police begin patrols, but Haiti's gangs are unperturbed."

Haitians are growing frustrated at the lack of action or an apparent plan to take on the heavily armed criminals. Another one, "Three missionaries from Oklahoma-based group shot to death in Haiti." Missions in Haiti identified the victims as they name the names. And finally, "US tries to downplay role in Haiti, but it's hard to hide the planes." And it said the Biden administration, because it was from last year, said the outset it would neither lead the effort nor provide troops. But it struggled to find a country willing to take up the tasks. And that's why Kenya wound up getting involved.

And we'll talk tonight about possible opportunities to actually right the situation there to make it more feasible for people to go back safely. And again, Haitian listeners, our phones are open for you for a few more minutes in this preview segment, especially on the news from just a few days ago that the Trump administration is canceling temporary protected status for hundreds of thousands of Haitians who have been here legally. The suspension of the status despite the ongoing gang violence, emergency, and political breakdown in Haiti.

Right now, who wants to help us report this story about what's going on there or here after this TPS announcement? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. And let's take another call right now from Renaud in Spring Valley. Renaud, you are on WNYC. Thank you so much for calling us.

Renold Julien: Good morning, all. My name is Renold Julien. I am the executive director of Konbit Neg Lakay which is the Haitian American Community Center here in Spring Valley, Rockland County. And also I am the president of the Rockland County Haiti Relief. The reason of my call is, first of all, let me just start by thanking you, WNYC, for giving us Haitian Americans and Haitians the opportunity to say something. Let me be clear. Thousands of Haitians who are here, I'm not only talking about the TPS, I'm talking about hundreds of thousands of Haitians came here through a special humanitarian program.

Those people, they were invited by the Biden administration to come here. And today, just because the new administration is having a problem with people of color, just because the Trump administration is having a problem with Black immigrants, just because the Trump administration is having a problem with Latinos, it is outrageous for them to be asking my people, my brothers and sisters who are invited to this country. Now when you say to them, like you are canceling everything, what do you want them to do?

On top of it, the United States of America is one of the countries responsible for the situation in Haiti. Trump knows exactly it is not possible to send back Haitians back to Haiti. So why exactly do you want them to go back? You just want them to go back for them to get killed? No. I think until the Trump administration and the different American administrations stop sponsoring thugs to be in charge of Haiti, they cannot be sending the Haitians who are here back to Haiti. You are just sending them back for them to get killed. So therefore, we, members of the Rockland County Haiti Relief, we, members of Konbit Neg Lakay here in Spring Valley, Rockland County, we are just asking the Trump administration to be more human.

You cannot be sending these people back to Haiti for them to get killed. So I know a lot of people are listening. I know there are a lot of, mostly the Republicans, and they are the ones in power. And here in Rockland County, we are represented by one of the very powerful Republicans, which is Mike Lawler. I am asking Mike and the other people to be human. To be human. Okay.

And also finally, like I've been saying, what is going on here today in America with him has nothing to do with immigration. Nothing at all to do with immigration. The only group of people I see ICE is running after are Black immigrants and Latino immigrants. What do you do with the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians? What do you do with the hundreds of white immigrants? Okay. Until I see ICE and the Trump administration start running after them, I will believe what is going on has something to do with immigration.

Brian Lehrer: Renold, let me ask you a quick follow-up question. Besides pleading with Congressman Lawler, with the Trump administration to have more compassion, what do you see? If you're involved with anything with Spring Valley and other Rockland communities that have Haitian populations organizing to help individuals, is this going to be a person-by-person fight to plead in immigration court to be able to stay if they don't reverse the policy that's now been announced?

Renold Julien: So now what we have been doing here at Konbit Neg Lakay since-- we have been in existence for about 36 years. We are what we call a recognized immigration center. Therefore we serve thousands of immigrants every year. So therefore, what we have been doing and continue to do is to work with other immigrant advocate groups to make sure our people are treated like humans. Okay? So we don't like it. I'm not happy about it. Like I keep saying, mostly the Haitians who are here were invited by the United States of America to come here.

All people. All people. They are here legally. Okay. They are people who've been here since-- a lot of them have been here since 2010 after the earthquake that killed over 350,000 people. And also, all I'm saying, I'm pretty sure a lot of your listeners did not know what we Haitians have done for this country, for this country to be free. Thousands of Haitian soldiers have given their lives for this United States of America to be what it is today.

Brian Lehrer: I gotta go. If you finish it up in 15 seconds, okay, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much. Tune in tonight. Saraya in Boston, what are community leaders there saying people's options might be as they face the possibility of deportation? It's very distressing, honestly, on behalf of them to listen to Renold's call and hear the community kind of being reduced, if I can put it that way, to pleading for more compassion from the Trump administration and Republicans in Congress. Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of people are going to have their TPS legal status revoked if they go through with it. What are community leaders saying that individuals' options are?

Saraya Wintersmith: This is an excellent question, and I think it's one we all hope to delve more into deeply later on tonight. We have seen the mayor of Boston come out strongly with a statement that her administration is going to work to figure out what the best path forward is for TPS holders so that they can know once their protection expires what to do. And it tracks, I'll just say, with her very vocal posturing as sort of a defender of immigrant communities against the policies of the new administration. The mayor has also kind of found herself in the national spotlight when it comes to immigration. She's going back and forth with new borders are in headlines.

And she'll testify before Congress about Boston not assisting federal immigration forces early next month, I think in just over a week here. The other thing that I'll say is that we do know the Trump administration recently made a similar decision when it comes to TPS for Venezuelan immigrants, and that is now facing at least two lawsuits from advocacy groups and some affected TPS holders themselves. It is possible that those cases will serve as a model for other TPS-holding communities facing expiration.

Brian Lehrer: Tim, let's end on kind of a preview of one of the topics that I know we'll be bringing up tonight because a number of clued-in listeners are writing text messages asking us to bring it up. I'll read one of them. It says, "Brian, tonight's show should also focus on the Iron Pipeline and the illegal trafficking of guns that is arming the gangs." And from your reporting in Miami, this is a real thing, right? Even as we talk about drugs coming to the United States from Latin America, things like that, with our loose drug laws, some of the arming of the gangs in Haiti is from what the listener calls the Iron Pipeline, correct?

Tim Padgett: Oh, yes. Homeland Security Investigations, for example, readily acknowledges that the gangs in Haiti are armed via this flow, this trafficking flow from the United States, mostly from Florida. It's been a chronic problem here for the past decade, and especially in the past few years, we've seen a number of high-powered weapons trafficked into Haiti, sometimes unfortunately involving members of the Haitian community here themselves and also unfortunately involving political and business elites inside Haiti who have been accused, particularly by the State Department, of sponsoring the gangs in Haiti and helping to arm them. So this is an especially acute problem, and a lot of people will tell you that unless that problem gets solved, you're not going to solve the gang problem itself inside Haiti.

Brian Lehrer: Again, listeners, we hope you'll join us tonight if you're interested in the topic. Tonight at 7 for 90 minutes, I will be co-hosting a special called Haiti on the Line with our public radio colleagues who have been good enough to join us this morning for this preview, Tim Padgett from WLRN in Miami and Saraya Wintersmith from GBH in Boston. And we have a number of guests lined up, including that Port-au-Prince-based reporter who does some work for the Washington Post, who I read some of the headlines from his articles from before. We're going to have a Haitian American member of Congress whose district, by the way, you can practically see it from Mar-a-Lago, and other guests as well. So, Tim, Saraya, talk to you tonight at 7. Get some rest. Thank you for coming on this morning.

Saraya Wintersmith: Thank you too.

Tim Padgett: Thank you, Brian

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