[MUSIC]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, we turn to New Jersey where Governor Phil Murphy also gave his State of the State address yesterday. It's his seventh and final as he is term limited out. A very different context than Governor Hochul who's trying very hard to get reelected next year. You might say Governor Murphy took a victory lap on a few things, property tax relief, education funding, raising the minimum wage. It was maybe more of a legacy speech. We'll take some New Jersey callers too, maybe now is when we start our, 'How did Phil Murphy do in two terms as governor?' stretch, but he started a speech by saying he's not planning on kicking back in his final year.

Governor Phil Murphy: Our jobs are not done, not by a long shot. During this final chapter of our journey, our absolute top priority, as it has been, I might add since day one, is delivering economic security and opportunity to every New Jerseyan.

Brian Lehrer: Yesterday, the governor outlined his set of priorities before he leaves office, including reform that he thinks would help build more affordable housing. We're obviously talking about this in both states and all around the country. A cell phone ban in schools, reducing traffic fatalities, and protecting reproductive rights. Joining us now to break down what that governor had to say is Terrence McDonald, Editor at New Jersey Monitor. Hey, Terrence. Thanks for coming on WNYC today.

Terrence McDonald: Good morning, Brian. Thanks for having me on.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take some of your actions to yesterday's State of the State address in New Jersey. Maybe you want to reflect on what you think Governor Murphy has done well or maybe done poorly, what do you think his legacy might be, or maybe you want to look forward, what do you think about any of these proposals? What do you hope the governor will do in his last year that maybe he didn't mention? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text. Terrance, as you know, the biggest issue in New Jersey, so frequently and consistently has been the state's high property taxes. Before we get into some proposals, let's listen to 30 seconds of the governor on how he views his record on that.

Governor Phil Murphy: The reality is that everyday life is too difficult for our nation's working families. While the stock market is soaring, including today, the cost of living from groceries to housing has skyrocketed. Here in New Jersey, as anyone will tell you, one of the biggest costs holding our families back is property taxes. That is precisely why under our administration, we have provided more than $14 billion in direct property tax relief to New Jerseyans through the ANCHOR Program and other initiatives.

Brian Lehrer: Terrence, how would you start to describe the Murphy administration's record on property tax relief?

Terrence McDonald: Property taxes sure haven't decreased while he is been governor, that I can attest to. He doesn't have direct control over my property taxes. They're set by the town, the county, and the school district, but he has touted these tax relief programs like ANCHOR, which have helped like you just heard him say, his administration has given out more than $14 billion in this relief. It's helpful, but that also comes with some hiccups. Just taking my own example, I applied for a $1,500 ANCHOR rebate check back in October, still haven't gotten it. That check is supposed to be a relief for the taxes I paid in 2021.

Brian Lehrer: What is the ANCHOR program? What is the word ANCHOR mean in that context?

Terrence McDonald: It's an acronym and it's just one of the Murphy administration's ways to help alleviate the high cost of property taxes here in New Jersey.

Brian Lehrer: Looking forward, the governor called for an expansion of affordable housing construction, specifically to reform zoning and permitting laws. Here's 30 seconds of the governor on that.

Governor Phil Murphy: This year, I'm calling on the legislature with humility to reform our state's zoning and permitting laws with a number of proposals led by Senator Troy Singleton and his colleagues so we can make it easier to build new housing in the communities where it's needed the most.

[applause]

Governor Phil Murphy: By cutting red tape and easing outdated restrictions, we can build potentially thousands of new affordable housing units over the next decade.

Brian Lehrer: Thousands is a very general term. They could build 3,000 or they could build 300,000 and that would be very different, right, Terrence?

Terrence McDonald: Right. Yes, of course.

Brian Lehrer: He mentioned a state senator who many of our listeners may not know, Troy Singleton, a Democrat from Burlington, and in particular proposals on housing coming from Troy Singleton. Who is he and what are some of those?

Terrence McDonald: The lack of affordable housing has been a real big issue for Senator Singleton. He was behind a big Affordable Housing bill that's currently being fought in the courts, although it is being implemented. The three items that Troy Singleton has singled out would ease the way for the construction of accessory dwelling units, like little properties on your own property.

They would allow for developers to be excluded from some local zoning laws if they want to convert office parks into mixed-use development, and they would spur the creation of more transit-oriented development. Leaders in some of our smaller towns have really resisted calls to build more affordable housing. They say they just don't have enough room for the kind of projects that Governor Murphy envisions. These items that Troy Singleton has put forward seem like they could potentially win some bipartisan support.

Brian Lehrer: When he mentioned easing the way to more housing construction in communities that need them the most, how does he identify communities that need them the most? There's an argument that if there's going to be enough housing to actually bring prices down, rents and home buying prices, they need to be in every community. Of course, we know in New Jersey as in New York as elsewhere, there's been so much resistance to building more housing of any kind and certainly more affordable housing in the more well-to-do suburbs.

Terrence McDonald: Right. The state has a formula for each town that says how much affordable housing that they really should be building. Some towns have resisted it, some haven't. I think one of the problems that the governor might get into here with this cutting red tape, which sounds like a really good idea, is this is a home rule issue. I think some towns are going to be resistant of the state or state lawmakers coming in and telling towns, "You can or can't do this when somebody comes before you seeking a zoning variance to build something."

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, what do you think about anything you heard from Governor Murphy yesterday? How about the cell phone ban in school? Should that be a statewide policy or anything else? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. A quick comment from a listener in a text message that says, "In general, he was great. He got American Dream up and running. However, I do not see property tax relief as a win for him." Speaking of course, of Governor Murphy. Since the listener mentioned American Dream, you want to mention that? Is that a win for Governor Murphy? Did the governor have something to do with that?

Terrence McDonald: Sure. The American Dream Mall is the big mall that's over in East Rutherford by MetLife Stadium. It's on state property. It's a bit of a win. He got it open. It was seen as a boondoggle for a really long time. Even a lot of it right now is still not open, but yes, I guess that counts as a win for Governor Murphy. Sure.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Housing, to get back to that hot-button issue all over New Jersey and as his tradition, the minority leader in this case, Republican Senate Minority Leader Anthony Bucco, had a chance to officially respond to the governor's speech, but before he gave his speech, he spoke to NJ Spotlight, criticizing the zoning change that Murphy has in mind in particular. Here's 30 seconds of Senator Bucco.

Senator Bucco: We can't just allow rezoning of every municipality without making sure that they have the infrastructure, that they have the land, that there's jobs available for these folks to go to, that mass transit is available. If you are going to start telling municipalities how to zone their properties, we better make sure that some good sound planning goes into it. We didn't do that with this last round of affordable housing. Instead, we forced this affordable housing down. What it's doing is changing the character of our municipalities.

Brian Lehrer: Can you expand on that critique from Senator Bucco? What kind of zoning is he objecting to that he says changed the character of our municipalities? In what way?

Terrence McDonald: It sounds like he's referring to this controversy over how much affordable housing this state says each town should be building. As I said before, a lot of towns have said, "We don't have the room for this thing." They don't want to see high rises. They don't even want to see medium rises. You see this in even little towns when sometimes a property owner wants to build two homes on a big lot, neighbors come out to say they don't want it. This is that home rule issue that could really trip Murphy up here.

Brian Lehrer: Another listener writes, "We've received our ANCHOR rebate on time for the past two years. Definitely appreciate it." A listener writes, "To address the affordable housing shortage, he needs to address the mean income." Another listener writes, "Attention to the continued improvement of NJ Transit is a must." How about that middle one where the listener wrote, "To address the affordable housing shortage, he needs to address the mean income."? When we talk about affordability, it's so interesting that so much of the political conversation focuses on the price of things including housing as opposed to the income that somehow policy encourages employers to pay.

Terrence McDonald: Sure. I don't know what Governor Murphy could do about this in particular. He did tout yesterday that he helped oversee a dramatic increase in the minimum wage, but I don't think minimum wage workers are what that listener is referring to.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Here's a caller, Debbie in West Orange who I think agrees with the critique that we just heard from the Republican Senate Minority Leader Anthony Bucco. Debbie in West Orange, you're on WNYC. Hi, Debbie.

Debbie: Hi. Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: I can hear you.

Debbie: She put me on hold.

Brian Lehrer: Everybody can hear you.

Debbie: Great. What's going on in West Orange is that a builder who actually owns the Minnesota Vikings has been allowed by this law to ruin a pristine forest and build 500 units because he bribed the town council saying, "I'm going to build you 100 units of fair share housing out of the 5." There is no public transportation available to these units within two miles. The town planning board has been told by their attorneys that this is a settlement that they must approve.

As that other gentleman, Carmen Bucco said, it is changing the character of environments because this particular development is in a forest, which is the top of a mountain with million-dollar homes surrounding it. They are taking 120 acres, taking off half of that, meaning setting this aside for fair share housing. In addition, there's another boondoggle where they're taking half of the forest and putting fencing to keep the deer and all the wildlife out so that the developer does not have to replant the trees that there is an ordinance and a fine. There's a whole bunch of wrangling going on in the name of fair share housing, which is unjust.

Brian Lehrer: Debbie, do you see this as a competition between two good things, enough affordable housing in each community and preserving open space and forest land?

Debbie: Absolutely. Moreover, as the intent said, it was supposed to utilize spaces that were not developed or reusing, let's say, office parks that could be rehabilitated, not destroying a pristine forest. The fair share housing is culpable because they did not vet the site. This has not just happened here. It also happened in Kearny where they were going to use a toxic dump site when they were promised fair share housing.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. You said the developer is the owner of the Minnesota Vikings?

Debbie: Of Minnesota Vikings, yes. The name is West Essex Highlands Inc., AKA Garden Homes.

Brian Lehrer: After this week's playoff game, they could use a better quarterback too. Debbie, thank you very much. Here's one that disagrees with Debbie in a text, Terrence, it says, "Additional affordable housing is right at hand. There are blocks and blocks of boarded-up houses in towns like East Orange and other cities in West Orange. Rebuilding these houses would restore middle-class neighborhoods and provide good construction jobs." I'm not sure that's exactly the opposite of Debbie because She was talking about forest land but still there's two points of view.

Terrence McDonald: Right. What they're talking about there, the text to you was about existing housing. Not too many people are going to object to that as opposed to-- I'm not familiar with the West Orange plan, but obviously, more people are going to oppose something like that.

Brian Lehrer: We have a few more minutes to spend on proposals in Governor Murphy's final State of the State address yesterday. We haven't gotten to road safety yet, which was one of the things the governor mentioned. I think we have a call on this. Let's take Greg and Westfield. Greg, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Greg: Hi, Brian. I was going to say that I think he's done some great things, but I got to say that the roadways definitely need some work. You guys had mentioned before the big mall that went up in East Rutherford there, the American Dream thing. I don't think anything was touched as long as the infrastructure as far as the roadways and things like that goes. I know a couple years ago that bipartisan bill passed that was the infrastructure bill, but just getting around generally New Jersey, it's just awful. As far as the roadways go and cleanliness of the roadways, Jesus, it's quite awful. I think he could do more with that. Definitely with traffic patterns and things like that, I definitely think there's room for improvement across the state for the most part.

Brian Lehrer: You mentioned cleanliness and traffic patterns. Is that a matter, in your opinion, Greg, of that you would like to see more roadways built, highways widened, that thing, or maintenance, where there are potholes or all of the above?

Greg: Yes, all of the above, maintenance, all those things. Especially with the East Rutherford with the mall, you can't just go build a gigantic complex like that, which is going to attract a lot of people, and additionally, right down the road from there, the new terminals at Newark Airport and things like that, without beefing up the roadways and accommodating for that, creating a couple more lanes or something like that or reworking the roadways and traffic patterns and things like that to accommodate these new builds.

I think the only way in and out of that mall is Route 3 and the Turnpike, which is, nothing's really even changed with those two roadways. I think there's definitely some things that could be rethought of as far as some of the planning goes, as far as some of those roadways.

Brian Lehrer: Greg, thank you very much. Our guest, by the way, is Terrence McDonald, Editor at New Jersey Monitor. I can just hear some of the environmentalists in the audience screaming, "No more widening highways. We need better mass transit to the mall and everywhere else." How about the things that Greg raises in terms of Governor Murphy's record or plans?

Terrence McDonald: What I think is interesting is that yesterday during Governor Murphy's speech, he said specifically that he was going to help overhaul 10 of the most dangerous intersections in New Jersey. He meant state roads, but he also mentioned that he wants to allow people to access their driver's licenses and IDs on their mobile devices. I think these plans are ways that Governor Murphy has signaled to people that he wants to do a couple of things that will make their everyday lives better, as opposed to just having overarching progressive themes that he has in the past.

Brian Lehrer: Highway safety, what did he bring up with respect to that?

Terrence McDonald: He said that he was going to overhaul 10 of what he called the worst intersections in New Jersey. I got a list of them. There's a couple in Trenton, a couple in Elizabeth. Even here, he is not going to make everybody happy because I posted the list and somebody that follows me on social media said that the intersection that he wants to fix in Roselle is not even the most dangerous intersection in our town. We'll make some people happy, not everyone.

Brian Lehrer: Is that the difference between New York and New Jersey? In our previous segment on Governor Hochul State of the State, the obsession was safety on the subways. In New Jersey, it's safety on the highways.

Terrence McDonald: Correct. More drivers here than over there for sure.

Brian Lehrer: If a police officer on every subway car overnight was the marquee proposal from Governor Hochul, maybe this was the marquee proposal from Governor Murphy, a cell phone ban for K through 12 schools. Here's 13 seconds of the governor on that.

Governor Phil Murphy: Honestly, is it any surprise that the rise in smartphone usage has coincided with a growing youth mental health crisis? Of course not. I, for one, am not going to sit back as our kids suffer.

Brian Lehrer: Terrence, I think this is rising as a very popular idea and across party lines. Maybe the only question here is should it really be done at a state level or should every school district or even every school be able to have its own policy?

Terrence McDonald: That'd be a tough one. We have 600-something school districts. This is a bill which calls for a statewide policy on this issue and it calls for the policy to ban non-academic use of a cell phone or social media during classroom instruction outside of emergencies. It won unanimous support in the State Senate yesterday. It seems likely to win a lot of support from the legislature. I just don't know how feasible it is. Kids tend to be smarter than adults when it comes to sneaking their way into using forbidden technology. My opinion is the adults may be playing a losing game here.

Brian Lehrer: Any reaction yet from school districts or teachers or parent groups?

Terrence McDonald: We've written about this before. We have heard that parents and teachers do support this idea, but I think one of the tricky things is gun violence in schools. We've heard some parents who say they feel safer knowing that their children can always get in touch with them in the case of an emergency.

Terrence McDonald: Last thing, the governor actually began his speech, even though we're playing this clip at the end, by "acknowledging" the elephant not in the room, President-elect Donald Trump. 30 seconds of Murphy

Governor Phil Murphy: In a few days, a new president will take power in Washington. Now, I know there is some uncertainty and even concern about what this new administration will bring. Here is my promise to the people of New Jersey, I will never back away from partnering with the Trump administration where our priorities align, but just as importantly, I will never back down from defending our New Jersey values if and when they are tested.

Brian Lehrer: There's a contrast between Murphy and Hochul. Hochul did not say anything like that, didn't mention Trump at all in her State of the State. She's running for reelection in New York where Trump did very well in the suburbs and upstate. The governor isn't running for reelection and he didn't get specific there. As a reporter, Terrence, what issues do you think you'll be watching for with respect to Governor Murphy leading any resistance for any way that Trump policies might affect New Jerseyans?

Terrence McDonald: Immigration, of course. We have a lot of immigrants and a lot of undocumented immigrants. During Phil Murphy's two terms, he has really spent a lot of political capital defending the undocumented immigrant community. We have a bunch of towns with large Latino populations, though, that saw large swings towards Trump in November. That indicates that there's a bigger appetite for the immigration changes Trump has proposed than many immigrant advocates and Democrats including Phil Murphy probably thought there was before the election.

I'm also going to be looking at congestion pricing because on this, Donald Trump and Phil Murphy agree they don't want congestion pricing. Donald Trump is about to get rid of it in his first week of office, and that's next week. I'm going to be looking at that.

Brian Lehrer: Can he do that? Have you decided based on your reporting?

Terrence McDonald: [laughs] I don't know.

Brian Lehrer: I honestly don't know. I think there's a big debate about that.

Terrence McDonald: There's federal permitting involved. I'm sure if he does try to get rid of it, there's a case legally to be made that he can't really do it, but who knows what the new president's going to do next week?

Brian Lehrer: Did Murphy say the state of the state of New Jersey is strong?

Terrence McDonald: He didn't use those words, but he did indicate that yes.

Brian Lehrer: I thought those words were required in any State of address.

Terrence McDonald: [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: We leave it there for today. My guest has been Terrence McDonald, Editor at New Jersey Monitor. Thanks for breaking down Governor Murphy's State of the State address for us.

Terrence McDonald: Thanks for having me, Brian.

Copyright © 2025 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.