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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Say you're messaging someone, maybe over text, email, or on a dating app, and it's going really well, they're responding quickly, even enthusiastically, everything seems okay. You send a text, a day passes without a response. No problem. People are busy. Then a week passes, then two. You send a follow-up, nothing. They vanished with no explanation. Ghosting, the term for this phenomenon, haunts our digital and actual lives. It's frustrating and puzzling and evokes some questions with no clear answers. What happened? Did I do something wrong?

My guest, Kyle Chayka, staff writer at The New Yorker and author of the weekly column Infinite Scroll, asks another question about ghosting in his latest column: Is it inevitable? We'll take some of your stories about ghosting by not just people you're involved with romantically, but also by friends, which is part of this, 212-433-WNYC, as we welcome Kyle to the show and back to the show. 212-433-WNYC or 212-433-9692. Call or text. Hi, Kyle, welcome back to WNYC.

Kyle Chayka: Hey, Brian, thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: So many listeners might only be familiar with ghosting in the romantic context, two people on a dating app, for instance, but ghosting is much broader than that, right?

Kyle Chayka: I think so. We can get ghosted in any aspect of our lives. This book I reviewed in my column, goes through friendship and jobs, and even society itself.

Brian Lehrer: When is something ghosting, by the way, as opposed to just not asking someone out again or falling out of touch with a friend?

Kyle Chayka: I think it's when it's very blatant and very intentional. We all know that text message window that just suddenly cuts off, and there's only messages on one side of it. It's just this total absence of communication, even though you have this total opportunity for communication all the time through our phones.

Brian Lehrer: On the I-word, inevitable, you write that "technology has made ghosting in its many forms all but inevitable." Why is that?

Kyle Chayka: I think it's because we have all of these ways of communicating now. It's not just text messages or in your dating app. It's through social media DMs, it's pokes on Facebook, it's video calls. With all of these ways to reach each other, there's also more ways to get ignored or to cut off communication with another person. You can get ghosted in any medium.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, again, have you ever been ghosted either recently or even a long time ago, but mostly recently, in the context of today's technology, as this article and book review are placed? Was the person a stranger on a dating app, a friend? Maybe you've been going out with somebody for a while. Did they ever reach back out? Have you ever ghosted someone? How about true confessions on ghosting friends or people you were going out with? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. When is it okay if you've ghosted yourself? 212-433-9692. Gail in Oceanside has such a story, I think. Gail, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Gail: Yes, hello. I used to go to a therapist, and I got help from her listening to me talk. Hello?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, we got you.

Gail: Are you there?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, yes, we haven't ghosted you.

Kyle Chayka: [laughs]

Gail: Oh, thank you. Thank you. After a period of time, she would start talking about her problems to such an extent, it took up the whole session, but she still expected me to pay her for the session. At that point, I felt like sending her a bill because I had to listen to her problem [crosstalk].

Brian Lehrer: I guess the question is, if you ghosted her, it means you just stopped showing up or making appointments.

Gail: Exactly.

Brian Lehrer: Why did you do that rather than tell her what your problem is, and "I'm not going to see you anymore"?

Gail: Because there came a point where there were things happening in my life, and I said, "I don't want to make an appointment right now. I'll see how I feel in the future when I could see you." Then I realized no. Then she kept sending me letters and bills, and she sent me, let's see, phone calls, which I didn't accept. I guess it wasn't nice of me, but I thought she should be able to figure it out if she's a therapist.

Brian Lehrer: Right. There was also a billing issue there involved. I hear you. All right, thank you very much. Tucked in the middle of your column, Kyle, you wrote, "Other people can always ghost. What will never ghost is an AI chatbot or the endless stream of content offered by digital platforms." How does that contrast bear on our understanding or practice of ghosting?

Kyle Chayka: Well, we expect when we have these digital channels of communication that they'll just go on forever, I think. Social media has reinforced that. An AI chatbot just offers you this endless conversation. I think that overflow of interaction and content has also made us expect that from other people. Like, we want other people to act like chatbots sometimes and just follow along with whatever we want to do. Maybe we expect too much from everyone we're chatting with.

Brian Lehrer: Claudia in Asane has a ghosting story. Hi, Claudia.

Claudia: Hi. Can you hear me okay?

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

Claudia: Okay. I'm a single person living in a co-op, and I need help doing repairs. I worked with someone from TaskRabbit, and she was beyond belief fantastic with a degree in interior design and never once made me anxious. She had ideas, and we spent days, I mean, days together in my apartment. It's a very intimate experience. I contacted her six months later, nothing. Texted, nothing. Waited another month, nothing. Went on TaskRabbit to see if she's still alive. It's very disturbing. It's been about a year. I did find someone who's lovely, but it's not TaskRabbit Susan. It's very disturbing.

Brian Lehrer: This is a professional relationship where I presume you were going to pay her again if she responded and helped you with something else in your place?

Claudia: Yes, and we were working one-on-one at that point. I had her personal contact information. I have no idea what happened. It's very disturbing. I miss her.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. From the credit where credit is due department, I want to just amplify what you said earlier, that this article of yours in The New Yorker is a book review of a book on this topic. I want to say the book and the author. It's Ghosting: On Disappearance, and the author is Dominic Pettman, a cultural theorist and professor of media at The New School. Was his take on ghosting different from yours, or do you want to elevate any other particular thing from his book?

Kyle Chayka: I thought it was a really fascinating investigation of ghosting. Dominic really goes in depth. He goes back to the 17th century when ghosted just meant died, which I found very interesting.

Brian Lehrer: Become an actual ghost.

Kyle Chayka: Yes, exactly. He was really focused on this theme of abandonment and paranoia, which, I think, comes through even in that story of getting ghosted by a designer. We're just worried that everyone around us will disappear all the time, and we won't be able to reach them. I found it a very moving book. I also hoped for a little bit more about the Internet itself and about how all these apps force us to communicate, maybe too much.

Brian Lehrer: One more a contrarian take. Chuck in Hoboken, you're on WNYC. Hi, Chuck.

Chuck: Hi, Brian. Very quickly. Love your show, and you are the best.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Chuck: I think ghosting is a blessing, quite frankly. It's the Irish goodbye of relationships, and I appreciate it. I have too many people in my life, as far as I am concerned. If someone were to ghost me, it opens up more bandwidth, and I am extremely grateful. It means that you don't want to deal with me. Why would I want to deal with someone who does not want to deal with me? Thank you very much, and enjoy the rest of your existence.

Brian Lehrer: Chuck, thank you very much for your call. Yes, the Irish goodbye for people is just like when you leave a wedding, you don't go make the rounds and say goodbye to everybody, you just leave. I don't know, is Chuck by himself, Kyle, or are there other people who might consider ghosting a blessing, as he called it?

Kyle Chayka: No, I think Dominic might agree with him that ghostings can sometimes be merciful. The other consequence of not ghosting that I write about is just having someone as a lurker in your life. They're just floating in the background of your Instagram account or in your text messages. Sometimes, when you just cut that off starkly, then it just creates a sharp end, and you can move on with your life.

Brian Lehrer: Speaking of which, we're out of time. Kyle Chayka from The New Yorker. His latest article, Is Ghosting Inevitable? Thanks, Kyle.

Kyle Chayka: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to ghost you now, but don't worry, All Of It is coming up right next. The Brian Lehrer Show for today. Produced by Mary Croke, Lisa Allison, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum. The head of Live Radio and our director today is Megan Ryan.

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