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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Let's talk now about what you might call bro internet culture and its influence on the election results and on American culture generally. Early exit poll data, and still that early, they're still crunching the details of the exit polls, but data from swing states that we have shows that the largest gender gap within any age group came down to this. Young men ages 18 to 29 favor Trump 49% to 47%. Young women in that same age group, 8 to 29, went for Harris by 24 points.

Even though we think of the youngest people, the under 30s in the country, as trending more liberal, more to the left, Trump won them among men by 2 points, 49, 47, while women under 30 who voted favored Harris by 24 points. That's a gender Grand Canyon. On the campaign trail, Donald Trump spent more time on Twitch streams and podcasts targeting young men rather than sitting down with traditional media outlets.

Our next guest writes, "It's fair to say that Trump's campaign was uniquely attuned to Gen Z bros." Joining us now is Rebecca Jennings, senior correspondent covering internet culture for Vox. Her latest article is titled, Is the Gen Z Bro Media Diet to Blame? Rebecca, hi. Welcome back to WNYC.

Rebecca Jennings: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: We'll open up the phones on this right away. Any 18 to 29-year-old men listening, help us report this story. How do you interact with this particular social media world? 212-433-WNYC. No matter what your own politics, 212-433-9692. What's coming across your feeds? Do we have any crossover listeners of, say, The Brian Lehrer Show and The Joe Rogan Experience? 212-433-WNYC. Tell us what you like, don't like, mixed feelings, how you would describe Joe Rogan and why you listen. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, or for that matter, parents of young men. Maybe this sounds like your son.

What are they seeing and how does it impact their worldview? How different is it from what your daughters are seeing on their social media feeds and sites that they use and platforms that they use? We had a caller the other day who said she has a daughter and a son and what comes across their media transoms is so different. 212-433-WNYC. Help us report this story as we talk to our guest Rebecca Jennings from Vox.

Rebecca, you're right, Trump's campaign directly spoke to this demographic. He echoed that same mistrust in institutions and did so while stopping at seemingly every podcast, Twitch stream, YouTube channel, and TikTok page whose viewership is dominated by Gen Z men and boys. Can you talk about this unusual media strategy?

Rebecca Jennings: Yes. I think it came as a big surprise to a lot of people who expected both candidates to do the typical sit down with every news channel and newspaper. Instead what Trump and to a lesser extent Harris did was meet people where they're at, meet young voters where they're already spending time, which is on these algorithmic platforms that serve them content that isn't explicitly political.

I think a lot of these podcasts and streams that he went on, it's not like Pod Save America where we're talking politics. These guys are talking about things that young men care about, video games, sports, UFC, stuff like that. I think that was a really smart strategy when you're speaking to young men about things that they care about rather than going on the tuned-in news reader, meeting them where they're at.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, I think I invited in different kinds of callers, but I didn't give the phone number. For the many of you who do not have it memorized and call every morning, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text and help us report this story. We'll talk about Joe Rogan in a minute, but there are a couple of other influencers you talk about who our listeners may be less familiar with. You highlight 24-year-old Twitch streamer Adin Ross and you give an example of how he famously tried to read the definition of fascism a few years ago. Let's listen to this somewhat cringe-worthy 30-second clip.

Adin Ross: It means you are a far right authorization on [unintelligible 00:05:22]-- Oh my God. Ultra analyst political ideology movement characterized by dictator leadership, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition. I don't know what that means, bro, I swear to God.

Brian Lehrer: Now I understand fascism after listening to that. Why highlight that clip, and tell us about Adin Ross?

Rebecca Jennings: Well, okay, I highlighted that clip because it's the funniest thing I've ever seen, but Adin Ross is-- he's a Twitch streamer. He's got a big fan base of kids that are used to seeing this kind of guy. They play video games, they talk about sports, whatever is going on. They do really crazy things on camera. He's part of this wider network of Twitch streamers and Youtubers who cater to the algorithm by just going more extreme than the last thing they did in order to cater to views.

When Trump was on his stream, he presented Trump with a Rolex and a Cybertruck that was decked out in MAGA gear. This is just really flashy stuff that makes viewers go, "Wow, that's crazy," and then move along with their day.

Brian Lehrer: Was it a real Rolex or a fake Rolex? Just kidding. Another one is the Nelk Boys. Hip us to the Nelk Boys.

Rebecca Jennings: Sure. The Nelk Boys are a group of Canadian and American young men who they're big in the prankster YouTube scene. If you've watched Logan and Jake Paul, who are now more into boxing and fighting and things like that, but the Nut Boys are like-- imagine a really, really grabby YouTube headline and then really quick cuts of them going on some insane trip and maybe bothering some strangers in public to get their reaction and setting up a lot of stuff that's just-- It's just designed to be like Cocomelon for 12-year-old boys.

Brian Lehrer: Eric in Cambridge, Mass, you're on WNYC. Joe Rogan listener. Hi, Eric. Thanks so much for calling in.

Eric: Hey, Brian, how are you? I'm much more of a Brian Lehrer listener than I am a Joe Rogan listener, but I do listen to Joe Rogan occasionally and did more in the past. What I want to say in favor of Joe is that he's willing to have people across the ideological spectrum on his show, which I think is good, similar to someone like Ezra Klein, but the big issue with him is that he essentially has zero fact checking and will essentially just agree with whoever comes on his show, including people like RFK Jr., who are essentially lying and don't have any facts to back them up.

I think listeners who are not sufficiently skeptical will just believe whoever is on Joe Rogan. I think that's what really leads to the spread of misinformation from that show.

Brian Lehrer: If he has guests from different ideological points of view, how could he agree with everybody? He would be disagreeing with himself, in effect, over time.

Eric: Yes, I mean, I don't think he necessarily has a problem with that. I mean, he endorsed Bernie Sanders, I believe it was in 2020, and then he recently endorsed Trump. I think he's not so concerned with being self-consistent.

Brian Lehrer: Eric, thank you very much. Well, we'll use that as a starting point to the part of the conversation about Joe Rogan. Our colleague at On the Media, Michael Loewinger, says that Joe Rogan tries to walk this line of what he calls radical neutrality, very similar to what our caller was just describing. On On the Media's podcast this weekend, they pulled multiple examples of Rogan calling himself a liberal, yet he endorsed Trump. Here's how Rogan sets up that interview with Trump, which lasted about three hours. Rogan speaks first in this 15-second clip.

Joe Rogan: I just assumed because people loved you on The Apprentice, they were going to love you as a president.

Donald Trump: [unintelligible 00:09:11] would be so easy. It's very interesting.

Joe Rogan: Well, it probably would have been if the media didn't attack you the way they did, if they didn't conflate you with Hitler. I mean, even today, Kamala was talking about you and Hitler.

Brian Lehrer: I haven't done the math on what percentage of 3 hours 15 seconds is, but that's the percentage we just played. Can you talk about Rogan's appeal, expand on what the caller was saying and this idea of walking this radical neutrality line?

Rebecca Jennings: Yes, I think that that ability to walk that line is part of Joe Rogan's appeal. I think it's interesting because in the last week or so, there's been a ton of internet debate on how Democrats need their own Joe Rogan, but it's like, well, Joe Rogan was kind of that guy. He was someone who was a Bernie supporter and is kind of like this everyman guy because he is interested in having guests on his show who have a lot of weird ideas, and that makes probably for pretty interesting conversations for a lot of people.

It does also allow for a very large lack of fact checking or any kind of scrutiny because he talks to these people the way that normal dudes talk to each other. There is a real power in that, but there also can be a danger in that when you are just that person that believes the last thing that your guest said. He's kind of like a sponge. I think because of the fact that so many people, so many young people in America especially, are leaning right a little bit, I think he's reflecting that a bit.

Brian Lehrer: Have you engaged with a debate about whether Kamala Harris should have accepted Joe Rogan's invitation to go on with him?

Rebecca Jennings: Yes. I mean, I think we all think that now, that would have been the right call because, again, because Rogan is one of those people that believes everything he's told, that's a really powerful place for someone who's promoting either their electoral politics or a celebrity who's promoting whatever it is that they're promoting. It's a really powerful soapbox to get on Joe Rogan because, A, he's like the most popular podcaster in the world, and also because he is a generous interviewer.

Brian Lehrer: She went on Fox News, right? Was interviewed by Bret Baer on Fox News. I know you're not a political campaign correspondent, so you may not know the answer to this, but do you think they made a calculation that even though Joe Rogan probably actually has many more listeners than Fox News has viewers, that it would be somehow more risky?

Rebecca Jennings: I mean, I think it shouldn't have been an either or situation. I think she should have been everywhere she could possibly be.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, yes, in addition.

Rebecca Jennings: Yes. Yes, yes.

Brian Lehrer: She decided yes to one and no to the other.

Rebecca Jennings: Right. Exactly. Yes, obviously anyone who watched that interview, it was a lot more contentious than, say, an interview on Joe Rogan would have been.

Brian Lehrer: Joseph in Queens, listened to the Trump Joe Rogan podcast. Joseph, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Joseph: Hey, Brian. Yes, I listened to the interview between Trump and Joe Rogan, and when I saw it, I realized that he was going to win because the Democrats were describing him as this huge, scary, nefarious character, and then I watched the interview and I was ready for him to be this crazy person, and he came off so well on that interview. He came off like a relaxed, funny, interesting person, and-

Brian Lehrer: Trump did?

Joseph: - the contrast between-- Yes, Trump did. Sorry. The contrast between him and what the Democrats were saying was just so huge that I realized that people who are going to watch that are going to be like, "Wow, this guy isn't so bad." I didn't vote for him because I understood the consequences, but I could see how people would have after watching that, because he just came off as a personable guy and contrasted with what the Democrats were saying how he was a huge threat and crazy and all this other stuff. He played his cards right this time.

Brian Lehrer: Joseph, thank You. Thank you very much. Any thought about Joseph's call?

Rebecca Jennings: Yes. I mean, I think that's one of those things where that's where Trump shines, really. It's just like sitting down and talking to someone who is generous and wants to hear what he has to say. Whereas I think Kamala really, she might succeed in more traditional media environments, right. Even though there's a lot of criticism that she didn't speak to certain media outlets and whatever, but I think that kind of environment is something where someone like Donald Trump really sings, and Kamala's team, I don't know, maybe worried that she wouldn't. Again, I think in hindsight that was a mistake.

Brian Lehrer: There's this kind of right wing bro media sphere that you're writing about, and you write that while plenty of podcasters and influencers espouse leftist and liberal views, they don't command nearly as much influence as those on the right. I'm going to ask you, and then I'll play a clip of one left of center influencer, Hasan Piker. First, why are the scales tipped in favor of right wing influencers?

Rebecca Jennings: I mean, I think the right, ever since kind of Rush Limbaugh in the '90s, has really found this niche of people that aren't necessarily associated with a major media institution who have found this group of viewers and listeners who really want to hear what they have to say. They've been really successful on that with algorithmic social media platforms where sometimes the loudest voice in the room is the one that gets heard the most, or the most controversial voice in the room is the one that gets heard the most.

By using those platforms like Twitch, YouTube, TikTok, et cetera, they found this huge audience who, again, like I said earlier, these are not explicitly political influencers, but because this is maybe either what their audience wants to hear or this is what is going to do numbers or grow their followings, that's what they're going to give them. That really works well for the right wing ecosystem.

Brian Lehrer: Why do you think it couldn't be as sticky on the left? I mean, we're sort of a 50/50 country. It's the same thing in talk radio, right? You referenced Rush Limbaugh who became so popular. Even today in New York, you can go down the AM dial and there are three right wing talk stations. There are no commercial left wing or liberal talk stations, and that's more or less been the case the whole era of talk radio. There was that attempt around 2004 to launch Air America, which is where Rachel Maddow got her start in national media. Al Franken had a show, Marc Maron had a show, others, but it failed.

There are various theories about this, right. One is that corporate America, the part of corporate America that buys ads, tends to lean right. They don't want media that's going to critique capitalism too much. Another theory is that the simple enemies list messages that you hear so much on right wing talk will find its audience. Liberals tend to be more nuanced in what they say, and that isn't as mass appeal commercial as right wing talk. What's the internet version of that conversation?

Rebecca Jennings: Yes, I mean, I think it's exactly the same one. I think the way that right wing media tends to talk to its listeners is that of we're on the same page, we're subverting the mainstream media. Whereas if you found a leftist version version of that, what it would be was like, let's bring down capitalism. These are not things that are popular with advertisers or with the billionaires that fund some of these projects on the right.

Also, a lot of populist leftist rhetoric is very critical of the Democratic Party. Whereas I think on the right, it's more just like, we're going to vote for the one that's to the most right. There's a mismatch there where no one's really pro Democrat here. Someone like Hasan Piker, very critical of the Democratic Party, and I think that also speaks to why Bernie Sanders was so popular in internet culture because he was critical of this center left position that a lot of mainstream media institutions take and a lot of advertisers take.

A lot of these left wing influencers rely on direct payments from their subscribers, which can't really compete with the radio advertisements and other kind of financial backing that people get on the right.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a one-minute sample for listeners who don't know Hasan Paikar, that left of center influencer you're just talking about, describing the media diet for his cohort. This is from a Crooked Media clip that was published on November 6th.

Hasan Piker: If you're a dude under the age of 30 and you have any hobbies whatsoever, whether it's playing video games, whether it's working out, whether it's, I don't know, listening to a history podcast or whatever, every single facet of that is just completely dominated by center right to, I wouldn't say far right in the same way that it was back in the 2016 era at the end of Obama's administration, but definitely center right to Trumpian right, openly Trump right.

Not genuinely neo Nazi, that part has quieted down a little bit, but they're like 90% of the way there for the most part, and that's it. Everything that they see is right wing sentiment being expressed by individuals that they find charismatic, thought leaders, influencers that they subscribe to. I think that that is some of the reason why you see this movement.

Brian Lehrer: Hasan Piker, who himself, I gather, is 33 years old. Want to expand on that at all?

Rebecca Jennings: Yes, absolutely. I think the draw that Hasan has that a lot of other influencers on the left don't have is that he is this really hot, funny guy, and a lot of these other influencers on the center right and stuff who cover gaming and sports and stuff but do have these center right politics, they're mostly just dudes having fun. I think one thing that's really important is that these influencers are creating a sense of community and they're flattering the same grievances that a lot of young men have.

Young men are so lonely and scared and they are part of this wider backlash to feminism at this exact moment. These influencers are speaking to them in that way because they're like dudes having fun together, doing dude stuff. I think any kind of answer for the left, if you want to call it that, has to reckon with that.

Brian Lehrer: Shanita in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Shanita.

Shanita: Hi there.

Brian Lehrer: What you got?

Shanita: Hi, can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

Shanita: Oh, I was just going to say there were two things. I think you covered that just right now about the money that is there on the right. I wanted to emphasize that because podcasters like Tim Pool and Joe Rogan, Tim Pool recently it's come out that he was influenced with a Russian entrepreneur. Even in general, with Elon Musk owning social media and Twitter, there is more influence and availability and infrastructure for right wing podcasters.

At the same time, I listened to a show called Majority Report on the left by Sam Seder, and not only is it completely funded by memberships and a few sponsors, but in the recent days, they've lost so much sponsorship with their coverage on Israel and Palestine, talking about some of the criticisms in the democratic government, but also going against corporations and what that means for the working class and the middleman. Because of that, there is complete imbalance of finances and also the topics that are covered.

Sam talks a lot about the Supreme Court, the judgments on the Supreme Court. The podcasters on the right usually go in line with their guests and are just talking about things that they agree with, whereas on the left, there is so much disagreement and understanding of the laws and structure and what the court cases are, what the Chevron cases. I think because of that, the money and also the topics both are not-- well, the infrastructure is not as built in favor of the left.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Shanita. Thank you. Very consistent with what you were saying, Rebecca, a minute ago. We're just about out of time, but if we've been talking about the bro-o-sphere in the media, is there a cis-o-sphere or whatever you would call it to appeal to young women?

Rebecca Jennings: Yes. I'm actually so glad you brought this up because actually, I think there's been so much discourse about what young men are watching on the internet and how it's turning them towards the right, but I think the same thing absolutely exists for women. In the past couple of years, so much content is extremely sexist and regressive, and it's targeted towards women.

It paints itself as feminist and progressive, but I think so much of it, especially when I'm talking about trad wife content or dating content, that teaches women all that matters is that you're hot and you can bag a rich man to give you this great life. I think a lot of that speaks to some economic anxieties on both men and women, but it also is subtly putting forward this idea that your job as a woman is to look pretty and make sandwiches.

On its head, that's an extremely conservative sentiment, but they're doing it in a way that makes it sound like this is this great other option if you're burnt out at work or if you're frustrated by dating. I don't think it's helping anyone.

Brian Lehrer: Making journalism, not sandwiches, or maybe you make sandwiches too, but definitely making journalism is Rebecca Jennings, senior correspondent covering internet culture at Vox. Her latest is titled, Is the Gen Z Bro Media Diet to Blame? Rebecca, thanks for coming on.

Rebecca Jennings: Thanks for having me.

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