Brigid Bergen: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergen, filling in for Brian today. In our last few minutes, let's talk about a momentous change for subway riders. No, not new cars or turnstiles. No fare increases, at least not today. There's a new map, which might look familiar to those who are longtime riders. If you have seen the new map, we'd love to hear from you. We're going to talk about it with my colleague here at the station, your friendly neighborhood transportation reporter, Stephen Nessen. Hey, Stephen.

Stephen Nessen: Hello, Brigid.

Brigid Bergen: The MTA might quibble with my intro there because I referred to it as a map; they prefer diagram. What's the distinction there?

Stephen Nessen: Well, I guess I have a copy of it right here, which listeners can hear but can't see. I suppose unlike the last map, which most folks are familiar with, which was around for nearly 50 years with some modifications, of course, but that one at least looked like the shape of New York City. You could kind of tell where things were. It had a bunch of stuff on it that wasn't subway-related, like museums and beaches and parks, and even, I was just checking, Rikers Island was on the old map.

Brigid Bergen: Oh, interesting.

Stephen Nessen: There's no transit to Rikers Island directly by subway anyways. The new map jettisons all that, and it just focuses on how to use the subway system. It's basically a diagram of how to use the subway.

Brigid Bergen: Interesting. It looks a little bit like the tube maps I've seen from London. I guess the MTA likens it to a previous version of the map, a different designer. Maybe you can talk a little bit about that. It's a much more streamlined geometric display as opposed to our previous version, as you said, that gave you some landmarks to [crosstalk]--

Stephen Nessen: Geographic, yes. I spoke with the designers. They did say they incorporated a lot from this map from 1972, which some listeners will know, some listeners will have absolutely no clue. It's designed by this famous Italian designer, Massimo Vignelli. He's at least the name that is associated most with this map. It was very modernist, and it was very radical at the time.

Apparently, people didn't love it because it didn't have a ton of information. It really just focused on the subway lines, and they were big, chunky lines. As well, even Central Park was pink in his map, which people were like-- Or gray, excuse me. It was like grayish color. They're like, "The park is not gray. It should be green." This map, the parks are green still. It did incorporate those modernist, big, chunky lines.

For example, our last map, all the subway lines are like spaghetti, colorful spaghetti because it's just- the A, C, E is just one blue line, but the new one, you can see it has three. There's the A, the C, and the E. They each get their own colorful line on this new map.

Brigid Bergen: So interesting. That white background really makes the colors pop.

Stephen Nessen: Right, that was a big thing the designers were telling me is all about the contrast for people who have visibility issues. It's a white background now, which is different. For a lot of folks, I think the first thing you'll notice is that-- There used to be black dots for each subway stop on the map, and this one, you could see each black dot also includes the letter or the number of the line. On a quick glance, you could see, "Oh, yes, Rockaway Avenue, Red 3. Got it." It's just a little bit faster, I think, for recognizing stuff on it.

Brigid Bergen: Listeners, if you have seen the map – I mean, sorry, diagram – what do you think of it? Have you seen it on any signs or the MTA app? Maybe you remember previous versions of the map, and you want to shout-out your favorites. Do you still use a map or a diagram, or do you just use the app on your phone to pick your route? Give us a call. The number is 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. If you can't get through on the phone, you can always text.

Stephen, a listener who has seen the map texted and said, "Why are the lines so thick on the diagram? It makes it less useful since it's very hard to see where the stops really are." Have you heard that from anybody?

Stephen Nessen: I've definitely heard people saying that the lines are much chunkier. I guess the designers would be disappointed to hear that because for them, it's all about quick recognition, taking a quick glance and immediately locating where you want to go and how to get there, because they try to make the connections as clear as possible. That was one of their big goals, so I guess I'm sorry to hear that.

Brigid Bergen: Yes. Well, you didn't design it. That's okay, Stephen.

Stephen Nessen: Just reporting on it.

Brigid Bergen: Let's go to Cassius in Brooklyn. Cassius, what do you think of the new map/diagram?

Cassius: Yes, it's so regrettable that they approved this and went forward with it. This map is horrible, and it's not even anatomically correct, for lack of a better term. It shows the G Train as running-- if it's going south, after it leaves either Broadway or Flushing, it depicts it as just running straight down in a straight line; when in reality, after it passes the Myrtle-Willoughby stop, it makes this big turn, and then it starts going west. The previous map showed all these things the way they actually are in real life. What is the point of a map that is not even correct? This is not an improvement. This is moving very far back.

Brigid Bergen: Cassius, I can tell you have strong feelings about it. Stephen, I know that you've been out reporting. Have you heard any similarly strong feelings in response to it?

Stephen Nessen: Yes. It's definitely a mixed bag. It's not universally loved or universally hated, but yes, it's definitely-- If you want to get a good sense of the city, this map won't necessarily help you. Even if you want to get a good sense of the geography of the subway system-- like he said, it's not anatomically. I guess it would be proportionally correct, the lines. It's not that, but it is fun to look at.

The designers also were saying, look, we know people are going to use their phones. Google Maps is what a lot of folks use. The MTA has its own app that has this on it as well. There's lots of different ways to engage with the map. I think they were thinking for a lot of tourists, they're going to just look at a tourist map or the Google Map. This is just for, in the subways, in the stations, like I said, quickly recognizing where things are and how to get around.

Brigid Bergen: Stephen, what was the MTA trying to accomplish with this new diagram, and why did they want to update it in the first place?

Stephen Nessen: That's a great question. I think part of it-- and MTA Chair Janno Lieber talked about it as well. He really wants to put his stamp on this as being a new MTA. We have the OMNY card now. We don't use the MetroCard. It's a new era. They've got this capital plan where they're really going to modernize the system. They're working super hard, they say, to make things different. We've got the new R211 train cars. It's a new era, they believe, for the MTA. Thus, we are deserving a new map for this new era.

Brigid Bergen: [chuckles] Let's go to Ben in Manhattan. Ben, thanks for calling.

Ben: Hi, how are you?

Brigid Bergen: Great.

Ben: Thanks for the call. First-time caller. I just wanted to defend the Vignelli map from 1967, and remind people or introduce people to the fact that it was a holistic and systemic graphic upgrade for the entire subway system. Not only was the map color-coded to match the letters of each train, which were emblazoned on the front of the train. There were circles in purple and green and yellow. All the colors that were used in the map, plus all the graphics within the subway system were designed by the Vignelli office to unify this whole system. Prior to 1967, we were still looking at signage that reflected the IRT, the BMT, the IND. They all had different graphics. It was very confusing. I think that was borne out by the hundreds of thousands of visitors to the New York '64-'65 World's Fair and their inability to get around. That's what I wanted to add.

Brigid Bergen: Ben, thank you so much for that. Stephen, you're nodding.

Stephen Nessen: Yes, no, it's awesome context. Thank you. Thank you for all that.

Brigid Bergen: Stephen, a lot of folks who have seen the map have strong feelings about it. One listener texted, "The new design is very disco, nice chunky, fat lines," which I thought was funny. For listeners who haven't seen it, where can you get one of these maps?

Stephen Nessen: Well, for now it's only available on the MTA's website as well as in subway cars and in subway stations. The MTA tells me very soon, but they won't say when, you will be able to get a paper map at one of the booths or one of their so-called information centers.

Brigid Bergen: Exciting. Let's go to Joe in Harlem. Joe, thanks for calling.

Joe: You're welcome. Thanks for taking my call. Yes, I mentioned that I have, of all things, a shower curtain, which includes a subway map which has made me very familiar with the subway system. This shower curtain also has things like the ferry services across, and it has the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail. It has the Long Island Rail Road within the boroughs, and it has the Metro-North within the boroughs. The first thing I was wondering was, does the new map include any transportation besides subway?

Stephen Nessen: Yes, that's a great question. Essentially, it really does just focus on the subway, but it does have where the Long Island Rail Road is. A fun fact that the MTA didn't necessarily want me to repeat to everyone, but I will do it here on The Brian Lehrer Show, is-- Well, two things. One, I asked the designer how many maps he has in his house, and he confirmed he also has the shower curtain subway map, but that's fine.

The other thing was I asked him, is there anything that MTA headquarters either wanted him to include or didn't want him to include in the new map? He said, as a matter of fact, somebody, and he wouldn't tell me who, at MTA did not want to include Amtrak on the map, which, as a transit reporter, I'm familiar of the ongoing feuds between the MTA and Amtrak over various issues over the years, including Penn Station East Side Access, where they share tracks and often have to work together. Not always well. The map designer – and it's Steven Flamm, I should give him credit, by the way – told me, he said, "Absolutely not. We have to include it. It's one of the main connectors." Yes, you will still see NJ Transit and Amtrak on the map connecting, of course, to Penn Station.

Joe: Well, and then also, oddly enough, perhaps only because of the connections to the airports, this subway map on my shower curtain also has the M60 bus, which goes to LaGuardia.

[crosstalk]

Brigid Bergin: Interesting.

Stephen Nessen: Yes, it does have that very clearly. The Q70 on this one.

Brigid Bergin: Joe, thank you so much for that call. The shower curtain. It seems popular with everyone involved in transit. I have one question for you, Stephen. How much did this whole diagram mapping process cost? Do we know that yet?

Stephen Nessen: I don't have the costs. It's not necessarily broken out, but this has also been sort of an iterative process. You may know the Weekender map online that they rolled out some years ago. This is a variation of that. They sort of started with that and worked their way from there.

Brigid Bergin: Yes. Another listener texted, interesting that Lieber, that would be Janno Lieber, wants to leave his "stamp" on the MTA. Again, asking, how much money did this particular stamp cost to design, produce, and distribute? We have some map fans as well. A listener writes, "I live in Chicago, and we have a similar CTA diagram here. I love ours, and I absolutely love yours as well." Another listener writes, "I think the new diagram is perfect. When I'm looking for a train stop, I don't need to study the New York City coastline or the exact contours of the train line. It's streamlined and presents the information needed." Some yeas, some nays there from our listeners.

Anything else that jumps out to you, Stephen, about this map?

Stephen Nessen: Yes, there's a couple of fun things folks can look for when they're on the map. There are two spots on the map where there are free out-of-station transfers. Before, if you look at the map, it had sort of a dotted line, but it wasn't really clear what that is. This one has a dotted line with a little walking person, so that's fun. You can look for those at Junius and Livonia, the three in the L, and one in Midtown Lexington, 63rd and 59th. That's pretty fun. If you look at the JFK airport, it has the terminals, and it has 1, and then skips 4, 5, and then 7, 8, because those are the only ones that are actually open at the moment.

Brigid Bergin: Well, we're going to have to leave it there for today. I want to take a closer look at that map when we get off the air. Thank you to my colleague here, WNYC transit reporter, Stephen Nessen.

Stephen Nessen: Thank you.

Brigid Bergin: The Brian Lehrer Show's producers are Lisa Allison, Mary Croke, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum. Our intern is Henry Serringer. Megan Ryan is the head of Live Radio. Juliana Fonda and Milton Ruiz are at the studio controls. I'm Brigid Bergen. This is The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Thank you for listening. Enjoy your weekend. Brian is back on Monday. Stay tuned for All Of It.

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