[music] Title: Extending Mayoral Control of the Schools?

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. A big issue in Albany and for Mayor Mamdani right now is his interest in retaining mayoral control of the New York City public schools for the four years of this mayoral term. The state legislature has to approve that, and is currently deliberating. In just a minute, we'll have former New York City Schools Chancellor Carmen Fariña, who is working with the Mamdani administration to help make the case for mayoral control.

One thing that might complicate his ask is that Mamdani started out his campaign for mayor running against mayoral control. He said he wanted to end mayoral control to bring more education stakeholders together to share that power. As you'll hear in this clip from one of the debates, you'll hear Andrew Cuomo's voice first in this debate clip.

Andrew Cuomo: Are you for or against mayoral control?

Mayor Mamdani: I've been critical of it. I'm against mayoral control, and I think that there's an importance of developing something that actually enshrines all of those voices together.

Brian Lehrer: "Actually enshrines all of those voices together." That was Mamdani early in the campaign, but by the time of the WNYC debate in October, Mamdani had changed his mind to embrace mayoral control. I asked him to clarify in that debate.

Brian Lehrer: Mr. Mamdani, you said you would give up mayoral control of schools and share decision-making with various stakeholders, but in the last debate, you said you're still for mayoral accountability for educational outcomes. This has confused some people about how you can give up final authority but still hold yourself accountable. Can you try to clarify that?

Mayor Mamdani: I remain opposed to mayoral control, and I also believe that the mayor is accountable for that which happens in the city. I will not shirk that accountability even when we are putting together a system that has greater involvement for parents, for educators, for students.

Brian Lehrer: Candidate Zohran Mamdani at the WNYC mayoral debate in October, moving toward endorsing mayoral control, and by December 31st, he held a news conference, officially changing his mind. With me now to help make the mayor's case for four more years of mayoral control, and perhaps explain his sudden evolution on the issue, is Carmen Fariña, school chancellor under Mayor de Blasio. She was also a deputy chancellor under Mayor Bloomberg, deputy chancellor for teaching and learning.

She started her education career as an elementary school teacher in Cobble Hill and was an elementary school principal from 1991 to 2001. If I got my dates right, that would have all been before mayoral control, so she's got a basis of comparison, at least, based on her experience. Chancellor Fariña, it's been a while. Nice to have you on again. Welcome back to WNYC.

Chancellor Carmen Fariña: My pleasure, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Before we even get to Mayor Mamdani's evolution on the issue and your case for mayoral control right now, historically, you were already a teacher before the modern mayoral control era began in 2003, as I just mentioned, 2002, 2003. What were the shortcomings of it then that Mayor Bloomberg, who started mayoral control, was able to reverse, in your opinion?

Chancellor Carmen Fariña: I think the most important thing is the demonization of the school boards. The school boards throughout the city, 32 of them, were very different, and I don't think there was enough equity. They were politically motivated. I don't think there was educational excellence who has some districts that always shown. I was lucky enough to be in District 15 as a teacher and District 2 as a principal. I think in terms of uniformity across the system, and making sure everybody was held accountable, it was under mayoral control that a lot of that really came to be.

Brian Lehrer: If mayoral control is right for the city, why do you think Mamdani got it wrong at first? Was it to appease certain groups of primary voters? Is the progressive impulse to end mayoral control tempting, and he just learned more? Why not, as he got more involved? If mayoral control is right, as the mayor now says, how did he get it wrong at first, in your opinion? Chancellor Fariña? Did we lose her line? I think maybe we did. All right, we will reconnect.

Meanwhile, listeners, you are invited to participate in this, of course, if you are for mayoral control of schools, or maybe you were one of those activists who was pushing for Mayor Mamdani to walk away from mayoral control of schools after Bloomberg had it, De Blasio had it, Adams had it. 212433-WNYC. Make your case, because this is up to the state legislature now. This is not up to the mayor, and from the reporting that I've seen, it's not a slam dunk, which is why they've recruited people like former Chancellor Fariña to come on here and make this case, and are doing other things to make the case, because it's not a slam dunk. What I read is that it's at least not a slam dunk to renew it for all four years in one shot, as opposed to continuing to dole it out piecemeal for a year, a couple of years, and evaluate him at each turn. We have Carmen Fariña--

Chancellor Carmen Fariña: I'm back.

Brian Lehrer: I don't know if you were able to hear my question. My question was, because there are activists who are out there working against mayoral control and who really believe in it. How do you think Mamdani got it wrong at first, if it is right for the city?

Chancellor Carmen Fariña: I'm not sure that he spoke all the people that are making the decisions, but I would also say that I was not a big proponent of mayoral control in the beginning. It was only when I experienced the disorganization in various jobs. When I was a principal, I worked under four or five different chancellors, and every time they came up with the rule, I had to change things completely. I think when I became a deputy chancellor under Bloomberg, I think the one thing we realized that we could do certain things much more speed and with much more speed and efficiency if we work together as a team.

I think mayoral control allows unified vision, certainly more accountability, but I don't think you come to that automatically. I think you come to it over time, seeing what happens in the field. I would say the only caveat I have is that the chancellor always has to be an educator. There should be no exemptions. I think once the mayor picks his chancellor, they should work together for budgeting purposes, for curriculum purposes, and for bringing all the resources to the table. We never would have been able to have the efficiency of Pre-K, and the 40 minutes of teacher training and the arts funding unless the mayor and the chancellor had been working hand in hand.

Brian Lehrer: In the clip we played from the debate in October where his position was starting to evolve, he talked about the mayor being ultimately accountable, but being able to include the voices of more stakeholders in a different way that had been done in the past. Do you think that's possible, and if so, what would that look like?

Chancellor Carmen Fariña: I think having an advisory council, not a huge number, but certainly some of the parent leaders as one council, and educational leaders in another. I think one of the things that I did as chancellor, I had monthly meetings with all the PEP leaders and the CEC leaders. I think hearing from them, we could anticipate some of the issues that were coming up. We were also able to have them visit each other.

Education has tended to be very piecemeal, and what was going on in certain districts and other districts didn't know about. I think bringing everyone together allows you to really get the best information. I think the idea of funding. Funding is crucial in New York City, and if the mayor talks to the governor, and then the chancellor and the mayor are on the same page, you're liable to get more funding. We Never would have been able to do the arts funding $23 million we got in one year by working more closely with the controller.

A chancellor, of themselves, cannot have this power base, but working with the mayor, they have that. The combining of resources also means that you have a speed that you can do things more quickly. Certainly, for Pre-K, we needed someone to work with us on space. Lots of things can be done, but like I said, I think having a chance as an educator is crucial to mayoral control.

Brian Lehrer: Does it depend who the mayor is, how much progress the city makes toward educating all its kids? Preparing for this Chancellor Fariña, I looked up some of the history of New York City kids performance on what they call the NAEP, the National Assessment of Educational Progress, which as you know measures students in school districts all over the country. Looking at this year by year, in the year 2000, just before mayoral control was implemented, 66% of fourth graders in the city were reading at least what they call at or above basic, 66%.

By 2003, after one full year of mayoral control, that had jumped up to 79%. Big jump of fourth graders reading at least what they call basic level. 2003, 79%. Then 2005, 81%. 2007, 85%. It stayed in the '80s through the end of the Bloomberg years. 2013 is last year in office, 82% reading at basic. Then, when Mamdani came in and you were the chancellor, it started to go down. By 2015, De Blasio was the mayor, and you were the chancellor under de Blasio and you. It went down a few points to 79% in 2015, 2017, it was down to 76%. It stayed there through 2019, went down even lower as Mayor Adams was taking office to 66% at basic level. And then it jumped again to 72% by 2024. In summary, the Bloomberg years seem to be an especially good blip in the historical trend. How do you explain those NAEP numbers?

Chancellor Carmen Fariña: Well, in the original Bloomberg years, I was the deputy chancellor in charge of curriculum, so I was very much-- [crosstalk

Brian Lehrer: Yes, fair enough. [chuckles]

Chancellor Carmen Fariña: Yes. I think one of the things we did there, and that was something because the mayor also approved. We brought more coherence to the system. We brought a more established curriculum base. We've held people more accountable. We were able under mayoral control. Also, I don't know if you remember, we also removed a lot of superintendents. We changed 50% of the superintendents and brought in people who were much more educationally focused rather than politically focused. I think that was the beginning of why that trend started. I think also you can't separate, unfortunately, education from what's happening in society.

I think we also started having a homeless population. That is one of the things that also affects education drastically, as kids have to move from school to school. Which is why I think having a curriculum that's coherent is so important, because no matter where you live in the city, you should be learning pretty much the same thing. I think there are a lot of external factors, but I do think that moving forward, it was about having someone in charge. Again, there was four or years that I wasn't involved at all, but I would think both under Bloomberg and De Blasio, we worked hard to make sure that education was a priority of everybody, and that the funding was there to support that, and accountability. I think you're talking about if you don't perform, then this is not the job for you.

Brian Lehrer: John in Queens, a retired teacher. You're on WNYC. Hi, John. John, are you there? All right, no, John. We'll try to get him back. Here, however, is a text from a listener making a similar point to what I think John was going to make. Listener writes, "I'm a retired teacher who was around both before and during mayoral control." Says, they have a lot of respect for you. Says, "I think there's a political aspect that's inherent with mayoral control. Agree that it was disorganized and more before that, but why not learn from those lessons and set up a new structure which is not centered around one person's ideology." What do you say to that listener?

Chancellor Carmen Fariña: Well, I think it's important to have a vision, and I think when you vote for mayor, you're voting for his or her vision. For them, I think they need to be more explicit in what they believe in educational-wise, and that's, again, why I go back to the chancellor has to be an educator, because then you already know they have a track record. What do they believe in? What have they stood for? What have they advocated for? That's all very, very important. I agree that there have been a lot of mixed messages, but I think I have a lot of respect for the present Chancellor. Kamar and I worked together when he was the superintendent. I think one of the things that he's been saying and the mayor's been saying is more about equity, making sure that there's a more integrated system, making sure that curriculum is the same available for everybody.

I do think that, I agree, and there's going to be no perfect system. It doesn't pay to have a mayor and a chancellor that are not connected, because if all, they're going to do is fight, it creates instability in the system. Like I said, I worked under Cortinez Fernandez crew and every one of them had a different vision, but because the mayor may not have been in agreement, we were constantly going through shockwaves. Well, what do they want today, and what do they want tomorrow? I think we need to make sure that we're working as a team, especially for funding. Funding is going to be a real issue, and I think we need to make sure that the mayor and the governor are working with us.

Brian Lehrer: Tell us more about how you would describe Mayor Mamdani's and Chancellor Samuels vision for the New York Public Schools. What would be different?

Chancellor Carmen Fariña: Well, I do think that they're going to put a bigger focus on curriculum. I think the days of political decision-making is not going to be there. Not that it's not going to ever be happening because there's always going to be some push, but I do think this issue of equity, which has been the bane of existence. Everyone wants equity, but nobody's willing to do the hard work to get it there. I think how you look at middle schools, to me, middle schools are always the key to whether a system works or doesn't work. I think having middle schools that are focused on after school programs, on high academic achievement, that's all going to be part of this administrative initiative, and I think that's really important.

I think we also have to deal with the issue of the whole idea of mobility in the city. How do you make sure that the curriculum is uniform so it goes from place to place? I also know that Kamar is visiting the city. He's doing a listening tour, and I think that's going to be very different. You have prior chancellors who stayed in their office and never left. You need to hear what the people's concerns are, and the concerns in the Bronx are not necessarily the concerns in Staten Island. Having more people to the table, and listening to them, and then following up, that doesn't always mean agreeing, but it does mean following up and focusing on what your client needs. Parents are our clients. I think the Pre-K is a wonderful initiative, and 3-K even better because I think these kids will be better prepared sooner.

Brian Lehrer: I think we have that retired teacher John in Queens back now. John, let's try it again. You're on WNYC.

John: Okay. Good morning. Thank you. I was a teacher when Bloomberg mayoral control first began, and there was a lot of friction between the teachers union and Bloomberg. I do think a lot of good things were accomplished. One of my concerns about taking away mayoral control is there doesn't seem to be really a system in place, so would there be a lag? Would he continue for the rest of the school year? When would they start that?

To be honest, the other systems didn't work very well either, so maybe having someone accountable is better. Then just a couple of comments quickly on Ms. Alvarez. I know you're a good educator and-

Brian Lehrer: Fariña.

John: -we enjoyed working with you, but this thing about curriculum, it just seems like every five years there's a new curriculum that you have to put in. It drives teachers nuts. This new reading curriculum where you don't read books, where you read these passages, and the kids don't read books. We need kids to be reading books. I'm in a position where I interact with a lot of teachers that are about to retire. I also am in contact with teachers from my school and my wife is [unintelligible 00:18:44] assistant principal, so I kind of plugged in, I think, to the system and I hear a real lot of complaints about this reading system. Some consistency in these curriculums would really be helpful to the teachers. Thank you very much.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for your call. Chancellor Fariña?

Chancellor Carmen Fariña: I totally agree with him. I think kids need to read real books, and I think that when Kamar starts going into schools and seeing that it can be side-by-side where it's already existing. I think the need to bring something uniform to the whole system is very, very important. I do think having class libraries, reading real books is a very important part. I think also when he talks about being a teacher, we have worked when I was transferred, very closely with both unions who can't have a system that works if you're not working with the CSA in the [unintelligible 00:19:30] I used to have monthly meetings with both of their boards. They need to be part of the decision-making to some degree because they are the ones who are going to have to execute the rules. You can't have people executing the rules half heartedly if they're not involved in making the decisions. The same thing with parents.

I used to meet with those parents once month. I do think that that's something this chancellor and this mayor-- The mayor has already proved that he's a good listener. He's gone out there, he's paid attention, and I think he's going to continue to do that, but there's a learning curve. First they have to figure out what they want to change, and how they want to moderate what's already happening, but I don't disagree with the teacher that we drive you nuts by moving. That's what I'm saying as a principal. We went through Giuliani's four or five transfers, and they were always fighting.

It's not pleasant to be in the field and feel that you're in the middle of two people fighting. I think giving them an opportunity, and four years is the minimum it takes. It takes two years to really get a good sense of the lens. It's not enough for mayoral control, the four years. I think the mayoral control should be coherent with the time of a mayor, and then they don't do what they're doing, the accountability changes then. I think it's really, really important, and I think the focus should be on what's happening in the classroom.

Brian Lehrer: Few more minutes with former New York City Schools Chancellor Carmen Fariña, who is making the case for sustaining mayoral control of the New York City public schools for another four years, which the New York State legislature is currently deciding on. She's representing Mayor Mamdani here, basically, who is, of course, asking for that four more years of control, even though he originally opposed that when he was running for mayor.

You brought up, and the caller brought up consistency of curriculum. Listener writes. "Carmen Fariña was responsible for the Lucy Calkins Teachers College reading program being promoted. Untested, not research-based. A generation of New York City students failed to learn to read." I don't know the history of your role in that, but what would you acknowledge it was now that they've gone back to an old school phonics approach to teaching reading, and apparently with some success. Is there a mea culpa there?

Chancellor Carmen Fariña: Not at all. I really felt strongly that giving children the right to choose books and read was an important part of making a literate America. If you're looking at what's happening in this country today, one of the issues I think we have politically is that many of our adults are not literate. I think having an early childhood where you do learn phonics, as a principal and as a teacher, I always taught phonics. I didn't drop phonics. You can also have aligned with phonics a good writing curriculum, which actually that program was. Our kids were writing much better, and we're doing much better on the writing test. If you look at the years that you said before that we were successful, we had that program, and the districts that were most successful had that program. Does it need modifications? Absolutely. If you look at the districts again, District 2, District 15, District 26, all of them were part of that curriculum. I think you can have many curriculums performing well, but I do think having the consistency is very, very important. You need to be able to go from fifth grade to middle school with some common knowledge.

Brian Lehrer: Does it matter that those are some of the most affluent districts in the city that you just mentioned? District 2, Upper East Side, District 26, Northeast Queens, District 15, Park Slope, around there?

Chancellor Carmen Fariña: Not necessarily. It doesn't hurt, but the reality is that in terms of teacher training, they've had a big influence. I think when you started looking even at District 3, which is a very different district, and that's where Kamar comes from, you have the north and the south side, and yet once you started having the curriculum that was the same for both north and south, you saw more success, so I don't disagree. I do think that when you had a district like 23 in Brooklyn that wasn't getting any curriculum whatsoever, that you really had something that did not work. Again, I'm going back to consistency and stability.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. One more call, maybe more skeptical of mayoral control. Wendy in the Bronx. Hi, Wendy, you're on WNYC.

Wendy: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I love that you're doing this segment. Thank you so much. I just wanted to touch base on a couple of things that the chancellor has said. Earlier she said something to the effect of if we just need mayors that are going to be more clear in presenting their vision and their policies during elections so that we can elect the right mayor to have the mayoral control that is going to work for our schools. She mentioned that that provides some continuity when prior to mayoral control, every time there's a new chancellor, there's a new policy that the teachers have to enforce. I disagree with that.

I was a teacher in public school in New York City under Mayor Bloomberg. Under his term, he broke down a lot of schools, and my school was one of them. My school was threatened with closure the three years that I taught there. It was chaotic and it really brought down just emotional wellness of the students, the teachers, the administrators, every year trying to fight for our school. Under mayoral control, I think it's called a PEP. I don't even know if that exists anymore, but there would be these hearings that would happen and the teachers, the students, the parents at my school, we would trek from the Bronx to Brooklyn where these meetings were held, understanding that really these meetings were a rubber stamp for what the mayor wanted.

I think that in terms of continuity of policy, we need stakeholders that are members of the school community and the neighborhood community. That doesn't happen when you just have one person who's running for a four-year term, and then they get to decide what they think is best.

Brian Lehrer: Wendy, I'm going to leave it there. You made really interesting points. We're running out of time in the segment. That's the only reason I'm jumping in. Carmen Fariña, you can respond to Wendy.

Chancellor Carmen Fariña: I think Wendy has a good point, and I think one of the things that might have been lacking is transparency. Things were done sometimes, and people did not know the reason. I think this chancellor and this mayor have to be very careful that every time a decision is made, the transparency is there. Doesn't mean we have to agree with it, but we have to know why, and then the why, the steps that go after that. I do think that also when you're a leader, you can't be on top of everything, so who you pick to execute your leadership needs is very important.

I think, because that's what I'm saying, the chancellor needs to be an educator. In this case, Kamar has been through the system. He's been a teacher, he's been a principal. He knows what's going on, and I do think that the mayor is going to trust him, but it's going to be a lot of consulting and I think listening. Again, listening doesn't always mean agreeing, but I do think that's going to be part of what he does. He's showing that already.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing, this is up to the state legislature. This is why we're having this conversation. Will they approve another four years of mayoral control for Mayor Zohran Mamdani? I see that they are tying their support, at least to a significant degree, to the Mamdani administration's ability to comply with the 2022 state law requiring the city to cap class sizes at 20 students in kindergarten through third grade, 23 and fourth through eighth, and 25 in high schools. John Yoo, influential state senator in that respect, says they're negotiating now with the Mamdani administration for how quickly they can implement that. You're not a political analyst, but do you think that they can get to yes on that? I know that the city considers it difficult to meet the timeline that's set out in the law with the expense that it would take immediately and to hire ex more teachers, develop ex more classrooms, that kind of thing. Quickly.

Chancellor Carmen Fariña: I do think that there's a good faith effort in this case, and I do think John, who I respect, I worked with him when I was both a deputy chancellor and a chancellor. I think you have some really strong legislators who are really education proponents. I do think that having the union as part of the discussion is actually a good thing. I don't think these kind of space issues are resolved instantly. There was certainly always a problem in any administration, but this is going to be a good-faith effort. This is not as a stalling tactic. This is a reality tactic. I do think that this will work itself out.

Brian Lehrer: Carmen Fariña, former New York City Schools Chancellor under Mayor Bill de Blasio. She was a deputy chancellor under Mayor Bloomberg. She taught and was a principal for many years before that. Now out of the system, but here making the case for continued mayoral control under the Mamdani administration, the legislature in Albany will decide on two years or four years of that. Thank you so much for joining us. It was a pleasure to speak with you again.

Chancellor Carmen Fariña: Thank you, Brian. Thank you.

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