[MUSIC - Marden Hill: Hijack]

Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. They're in the home stretch in Albany now toward the end of the 2024 state legislature session. The end is in June each year, and they don't come back until January, except for special circumstances. There are a number of major and interesting issues still in play. For example, there's a bill that could pass that would prohibit social media companies from using their algorithms on users under the age of 18, and prohibit them from selling those same users data.

Also, the New York HEAT Act, we've covered that in our climate story of the week, to cap heating bills for low-income New Yorkers, and advance the transition to climate-friendly energy sources and away from fossil fuels. There's another environmental bill that would limit single-use plastic packaging. There's the Aid in Dying bill, which we did a segment on a few weeks ago, to allow that choice with medical assistance for certain terminally ill people. There's a bill to allow incarcerated people to vote, and there's a measure that would designate land near Citi Field in Queens as eligible for a casino, which the Mets owner, Steve Cohen, is said to want to build there. The prospects for that bill took a hit the other day when Senator Jessica Ramos, who represents the area, came out against it.

Senator Jessica Ramos: After three town halls, a poll, a survey, and I can't tell you how many conversations I've had around the district, I've concluded that the vast majority of our neighbors would not welcome a casino in our backyard.

Brian Lehrer: State Senator Jessica Ramos, and that's not even the whole list of things the state might enact in the next few days before adjourning for the year. We'll also touch on a law they already passed, that's now being challenged in court, the one to change local election voting in much of the state to even-numbered years so the local elections coincide with a higher turnout national ones. Republicans are taking that change to court. With us now, our Albany reporter, Jon Campbell. Hi, Jon, always good to have you on the show.

Jon Campbell: Hi, Brian. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Man, you must be busy. We were joking in the recent pledge drive last week about how many listeners wait till the last day of the drive to make their donations. We always have to bake that into our expectations. Is there usually this much procrastination on major pieces of legislation till the last few days of the session?

Jon Campbell: Most certainly. Yes. This is an Albany tradition in the end of June and also in March, beginning of April when they passed the budget. Those are the two times where they really pass everything. Hundreds and hundreds of measures get passed in those two periods of time. Last year, the governor had almost 900 or almost 1,000 bills on her desk last year to sign her veto. They crash hard, but hey, I'm a journalist. I work on deadline. I get it.

Brian Lehrer: I get it too. I'm going to go down this list you gave us and of stories you've been reporting on, on the air, and on our local news website, Gothamist, and you'll give us your take on where things stand. Listeners, you are invited in. I know there always are some listeners who are active in fighting for one piece of Albany legislation or another. Last-minute lobbying welcomed here, as well as questions which are always welcome. 212-433-WNYC, call or text 212-433-9692. All right, Jon, here we go. The casino near Citi Field. We played the Jessica Ramos clip. Who's for it, and why is Senator Ramos against it?

Jon Campbell: This is a really interesting one, and it goes back the whole way to the origin of the Mets and Shea Stadium in the late '50s, early '60s. It was built on parkland near the World's Fair there. In order to alienate parkland, under state doctrine, the state legislature has to pass something and you have to designate another area that is going to be used to replace that parkland. You saw it with the new Yankee Stadium recently too, recently, I mean 20 years ago, at this point. Basically, Steve Cohen, in order to build this big $8 billion casino project that he wants to do with Hard Rock, next door to Citi Field, where the old Shea Stadium was, he needs the state legislature to pass a bill alienating parkland.

Now, you might be thinking that's not really parkland, that's actually a parking lot. You're right, but it is designated as parkland. He needs the state legislature to pass this bill. Jessica Ramos, the local state senator, said she won't introduce it. That is a huge blow because lawmakers tend to defer to the local lawmakers. The local senator, the local state assembly person, Jeff Aubry, the Assemblyman has introduced it. He supports this project, but Jessica Ramos says she won't introduce the bill.

Brian Lehrer: Briefly, what are the arguments? Why is one representative from the area for it and must think it would be a net plus, and the other representative against it?

Jon Campbell: It goes down to the basic arguments for and against casinos. The people who are in favor of it, saying, "Hey, this is a big project, it brings economic activity, it brings jobs to the area." What Senator Ramos said was basically, like, "Yes, we want economic activity, we want jobs, et cetera, but, really, a casino is our best hope here?" She introduced a separate bill that would allow for a convention center and hotels and things of that nature, but not the casino itself.

Brian Lehrer: All right, next issue—voting rights for incarcerated people. Some states already allow it. Who's for it? Who's against it? In Albany, you did a separate article on this.

Jon Campbell: This would require a state constitutional amendment. That's something that is a multi-year process. There was some people who were hoping to see this bill passed, this amendment passed this year for the first time, which means the legislature capacity again the next year, which then it would allow it to go to the public for a vote. The sponsors of the bill say it's probably not happening this year.

That's Julia Salazar, the state senator from Brooklyn, and Harvey Epstein, the assembly member from Manhattan. They say that there's not enough of a push for it this year. The city council toyed with maybe backing it and that got it a little buzz, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen. That said, people who are in jail on misdemeanor charges and people who are awaiting trial, they already have voting rights in New York. These are for people who would be incarcerated on felony charges.

Brian Lehrer: Even in a Democratic party, super majority legislature, super majority meaning they have 2/3 of the assembly, they have 2/3 of the Senate, even with those political numbers, this doesn't fly as a civil right?

Jon Campbell: Listen, issues of criminal justice reform have advanced under these democratic super majorities, but they are used against the Democrats at the ballot box, particularly in congressional races. Even though I know this is a state issue and that's a federal issue, Republicans use these issues to drive their people, their base to the polls. Something like this certainly would come into play in elections. This is an election year for all 213 state lawmakers. There's definitely some uneasiness even among some Democrats on this stuff.

Brian Lehrer: All right, we'll keep going down the list of last-minute bills before the New York State legislature. Let's take a call from Tyler in Yonkers, who's interested in one of the ones that I mentioned in the intro. Tyler, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Tyler: Yes, thank you so much, Brian. Thank you so much for the episode you did a week or ago on medical aid in dying, because I saw a loved one suffer a gruesome death, which didn't have to be so intolerable. You mentioned New York, we have this democratic majority, and then your previous guests mentioned that New York is normally in the forefront of progress or something like that. Many other states grant people this end-of-life autonomy.

I don't know how the sausage is made in Albany. Maybe your guests can help me out here. 70% of New Yorkers-- more than 70% support medical aid in dying. The legislators, the leaders, including my state senator, Andrea-Stewart-Cousins, they're intimidated by these religious fundamentalists or whatnot. Many people don't care about reproductive rights until a 16-year-old daughter or niece gets pregnant. Many people don't think about end-of-life suffering until they watch a loved one have a gruesome death. What is going on? Why is New York still behind so many other progressive states on this issue, on medical aid in dying? Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Tyler. I said last-minute lobbying welcomed here. Tyler took advantage. Anybody else want to, on any other issue? 212-433-WNYC. Julie in Hastings, we see you. You'll be next. Another Julie in Yonkers, we see you. 212-433-9692. Jon, can you answer Tyler's question, why New York has been behind other states on this issue. Does it look to you now that this is the year it changes? Because I know there's been talk of that since the New York State Medical Association, which represents 20,000 doctors, I think, and the New York Bar Association both flipped their positions this year after some changes to the draft, and they came out for medical aid in dying. What's your answer to Tyler's question about the past and how does it look to you for the prospects in the coming days?

Jon Campbell: What I would say is this is an issue where the supporters of the bill cannot fathom how somebody would be against it, and the opponents of the bill cannot fathom how somebody would support it. The opponents include the Catholic Church. They include some disability rights advocates who worry that there could never possibly be enough safeguards in place.

That said, it made some progress this year in the sense, like what you just said, two big influential groups, the Bar Association and the Medical Society came out in favor of it. That is a big win for supporters.

There are still members of the legislature, including potentially the leaders of the legislature, who have just a moral hesitancy to act on this. It is a tough, tough vote. Senator Andrea Stewart-Cousins, who the caller mentioned, she's the leader of the Senate. She has not committed to bringing it forward. Neither has Assembly Speaker Carl Heastie. Months ago, on this show, I think I called it a long shot, and the supporters of the bill got very angry with me, but I think that's proven to be true. We've got two weeks left in the legislative session. Anything can happen, but personally, I would be a little surprised if it got a vote by the end of the session.

Brian Lehrer: Next issue. Julie, in Hastings, you're on WNYC. Hi, Julie.

Julie: Hi Brian. Thanks so much for taking my call and for doing this issue. Public Radio is the only one that does such important issue. Thank you. An issue that is under the radar screen, it's pernicious, but under the radar screen and that is predatory marketing of junk food to children. There is a bill being supported by the Center for Science in the Public Interest and the Interfaith Food Network that, like New York State limits advertising on other questionable products, this is to ask them to do that with regard to junk food. Of course, they spell out which things there are that are junk food, and actually-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Targeted to kids, in particular, you're saying?

Julie: Exactly.

Brian Lehrer: Jon, do you know that bill?

Jon Campbell: I know the bill just vaguely. I do know that some influential members of the legislature-- Zellnor Myrie, who is now exploring a mayoral run, he's a state senator from Brooklyn, and Karines Reyes from the Bronx, an assembly member. They, I believe, are the sponsors of that bill, and they have pushed it as a measure that-- They have said that predatory junk food marketing specifically harms Black and brown communities.

I know just the very basics. I do not know if it has a chance of passage before the end of session. I just don't know the state of it, but I do know that it has some influential supporters.

Brian Lehrer: Julie, thank you for raising it. This other bill that is intended to protect children, that would prohibit social media companies from using their algorithms on users under the age of 18, and prohibit them from selling those same users' data, you've reported on that. Is that going forward in Albany this year?

Jon Campbell: Well, the governor certainly is making it seem as if it is moving forward this year. I know that both houses of the legislature, the governor's office is involved in this, the Attorney General's office, Letitia James' office is very involved in this as well. They are pushing two bills. One, as you mentioned at the top, would prohibit social media companies from using addictive algorithms on children under the age of 18 without parental consent. The other would prohibit those companies from selling those same users' information.

There are some tricky spots here. One is age verification. How do you ensure that a user is actually under the age of 18? I asked the governor about that yesterday and she said, "Well, it's going to be more than just requiring them to put in a birthday. There will be more things, more safeguards in place." I said, "Well, what are those safeguards?" She said, "Oh, that's to be seen, blah, blah, blah, blah."

Brian Lehrer: Or for parental consent for that matter. How do you verify that?

Jon Campbell: Yes. There's tough issues there. Tech:NYC has been the major opponent of this. That's a trade group. It includes Meta, it includes Google, which owns YouTube. This is state government lining up against some of these social media companies. The governor seems pretty confident that something will get done on it, but it remains to be seen how much her-- The bills from earlier this year. I shouldn't say her bills. It's Senator Gounardes' bill and Nily Rozic, the assembly member, their bill, how much that will be watered down before it passes, if at all. The governor seems confident something is going to pass. We just don't know what form that will be.

Brian Lehrer: You mentioned, or the way you put it a minute ago, is that they would be prohibited, these companies, from using their addictive algorithms on minors. Does that mean that there are some things that Facebook or whatever could use algorithms that they could use that are not considered addictive? Or does that mean the whole thing is addictive and so it's really a ban by age altogether on using a lot of social media sites?

Jon Campbell: It will depend on how the final bill that they put to a vote, if they do put to a vote is written. We don't have that yet. In general, what the sponsors of the bill have said is what they're aiming for is for kids under the age of 18, you would see just the accounts you follow in chronological order rather than a curated algorithm that is designed to keep you on that phone. The other thing it would do, it would have restrictions on what the companies-- The companies wouldn't be able to ping your phone basically between midnight and 6:00 AM if you are under the age of 18.

Brian Lehrer: Julie in Yonkers, you're on WNYC. Hi, Julie.

Julie 2: Hi. Thank you for picking up my call. I'm calling about a bill called the Voting Integrity and Voter Verification Act of New York VIVA NY, to ensure that we as voters continue to control our own ballots, and to be able to verify how our ballots are going to be counted before we cast them. New York State did something hugely important after the Help America Vote Act passed, we did not join the rush to buy touchscreen voting machines where you couldn't verify your ballots.

Now we're going back to equivalent voting machines that have, unfortunately, and according to common cause, illegally been certified for use in New York State. As early as the November election, voters in Erie, Monroe, and Orange County, unless VIVA NY passes, voters in Erie, Monroe, and Orange could go into their polling places and instead of being handed a big paper ballot that has all the names of the possible candidates with fields that they fill in to mark their ballot, they'll be faced with an array of giant touch screens.

It'll be very hard to have any privacy because the screens are so big. They're going to have to be lined up against the wall, God knows where Erie, Monroe, and Orange are going to find the big spaces for these extra voting machines. Because New York State law requires that you only have one type of voting machine that produces one type of ballot in any polling place. Essentially, everybody will have to vote on a touchscreen in any county that buys these.

Brian Lehrer: Julie, thank you for raising that. Jon, you're familiar with this and what the debate is between using the current system, which is paper ballots that you insert to be read electronically, or going to the touch screens?

Jon Campbell: I'm generally aware of the bill that the caller's referring to. I know that it's currently in committee in the assembly. It has not reached a committee in the Senate yet. That is generally not a great sign of its chances before the end of the legislative session. Strange things can happen at the end of the session. They can fast-track it through the committee process and get it to a vote. That doesn't mean that the issue is dead. I will also say there are hundreds and hundreds of bills out there that we're not quite sure which way they'll go. This is one of them that I don't know off the top of my head.

Brian Lehrer: Julie, thank you for your call. Let me touch two other things real quick. One, any climate-related bills, we've covered a number of them on the show in separate climate story of the week segments, the HEAT Act, which I mentioned in the intro, which would actually cap energy bills for lower-income New Yorkers. Part of the reason for that is it would also speed up the transition to climate-friendly energy sources, which, at least temporarily, might be more expensive. They're trying to protect the lower-income people from that shock. Is the HEAT Act going forward or anything else climate-oriented that you know of?

Jon Campbell: The HEAT Act is the big one, I would say. That is this bill would dramatically slow down the expansion of the gas system in New York as it is, there is this thing called the 100-foot rule, and if you're within 100 feet of a line, then the utilities have an obligation to, if you want to hook your house up to gas, they have to do it and then customers subsidize that cost. It would remove that cost, which would have the effect of limiting the expansion of natural gas service over a period of years.

That is one, the governor's on board with it. The Senate seems to be on board with it, and the assembly is not quite there yet. That's one. It fell out of the state budget in March and April, that led law advocates to really, really push on the assembly to try to get it done by the end of session. It remains to be seen whether that's going to happen.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing, I said in the intro that we'd also touch on this law that they already passed that's now being challenged in court mostly by Republicans in several localities around the state. This, we were just talking about, how you vote in New York. Well, this one would change local election voting in much of the state that is not New York City for now, but the rest of the state, to even-numbered years. You know, listeners, how New York City votes for mayor in these odd-numbered years. It's not the same years that we vote for president or vote for governor, vote for Congress.

Those local elections in years like 2025 tend to be really, really low turnout. The push is for higher turnout by having local elections in the state be held the same year as national elections, even-numbered years so far just for all the counties other than New York City. Jon, why are Republicans going to court to challenge it?

Jon Campbell: Republicans, politically speaking, they believe that this would be bad for them, quite frankly, because they've accused Democrats of trying to gin up support by aligning these elections with the presidential year where New York generally votes very heavily for the Democratic candidate, has, every time, since 1984 on Ronald Reagan. They're going to court to fight this. It's Bruce Blakeman, the Nassau County executive. It's the Onondaga County legislature up in Syracuse.

It's a handful of Nassau County towns have signed onto these efforts, and they're arguing that this law, which was passed last year, violates home rule, violates their ability to set laws for their county. They say that the Nassau County Charter, for example, sets elections in odd years, and that should supersede the state effort here. That's going to be tied up in court, that will play out, and that'll decide whether that goes forward.

The city-level elections and district attorney elections are set by the state constitution in odd-numbered years. That is something that would require a constitutional amendment to change. As soon as I get off the air here, I'm heading to a press conference at the Capitol where Senator James Skoufis, an Orange County Democrat, is pushing his amendment that would make that change, but he does not have an assembly sponsor for that amendment yet. That doesn't look, at this moment in time, like that's moving forward. We could hear some more at the press conference later today.

Brian Lehrer: WNYC and Gothamist Albany reporter, Jon Campbell, with a lot to keep his eyes on as the New York State legislature session is close to ending for the year. That'll be within a couple of weeks if they follow the usual calendar. As you've been hearing, folks, so many bills still in play, and that we don't know whether they're going to be passed or defeated. Jon, thanks for bringing us up to date as always.

Jon Campbell: Thank you so much for having me.

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