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Brigid Bergin: It's the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. I'm Brigid Bergin, senior reporter in the WNYC and Gothamist newsroom, sitting in for Brian today. Now we turn to our climate segment as part of Health and Climate Tuesdays. As the United Nations General Assembly brings world leaders to New York City this week, it's also Climate Week NYC, a week of events around the city that focus on climate change challenges and solutions. While last year the United States was a global leader on climate mitigation under President Joe Biden, this year marks a stark departure.

Under President Donald Trump, the US has undergone a major reversal. The Trump administration has dissolved the State Department office responsible for leading US climate negotiations, dismembered a program that tracks the nation's greenhouse gas emissions, and thwarted clean energy policies in favor of expanding oil, gas, and coal. That's according to Politico. President Trump addressed the United Nations this morning. Here he is taking issue with the term climate change and former warnings made by the United Nations.

President Donald Trump: Climate change, no matter what happens, you're involved in that. No more global warming, no more global cooling. All of these predictions made by the United Nations and many others, often for bad reasons, were wrong. They were made by stupid people that have cost their country's fortunes and given those same countries no chance for success. If you don't get away from this green scam, your country is going to fail.

Brigid Bergin: Our next guest interviewed six world leaders ahead of the UN General Assembly this week about how their nations are dealing with the challenges of climate change and altering their strategies now that the United States is no longer offering support. Joining us now is David Gelles, reporter on the New York Times Climate Team. He leads the Times Climate Forward newsletter and is the author of a new book about the billionaire founder of Patagonia. It's titled Dirtbag Billionaire: How Yvon Chouinard Built Patagonia, Made a Fortune, and Gave It All Away. David, welcome to WNYC.

David Gelles: Thanks for having me.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, if you are listening or work in industries that tackle climate change either on a local, national, or international level, how has the Trump administration and its skepticism of climate change impacted your work? Have your projects lost funding? Is the back and forth of US Climate priorities causing confusion in your field, or any other questions or comments you have for our guest, David Gelles, reporter on the New York Times Climate Team? You can call us now at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can also text at that number.

Anyone who's out there participating in Climate Week NYC, we can take some of your calls, too. What events are you going to and why? Even if the United States is taking a backseat, who is stepping up? What do you find hopeful or inspiring as world leaders come to New York City to try and work on climate change? The number one more time, 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. David, starting on the news of Climate Week NYC, you wrote, "After another year of record global temperatures and climate-fueled disasters, world leaders are confronting not only a rapidly changing planet but also a drastically altered political landscape." What political environment are climate leaders entering this year?

David Gelles: Thanks for having me. You said it best in the intro. It's whiplash. Just one year ago as world leaders gathered here in New York City for the United Nations General Assembly, we had a president and an administration that were trying to lead a global effort to reduce planet warming emissions, to advance renewable energy, and to try to wean the world off fossil fuels, which scientists have been very clear about for decades now, are the driving source of the planetary warming that is happening. Fast forward to today, and we have an administration that is working at cross purposes to almost every single one of those issues.

We're seeing that whiplash both domestically with, as you referenced, the reversal of numerous domestic programs and investment strategies designed to make headway on the climate issue and also on the international front, where the United States, which until very recently, again during the Biden administration, was trying at least to be a real global leader, suddenly all of those efforts have dissipated. The world leaders I spoke to were frankly reeling, and they are still committed on balance, to trying to make headway in their own countries. They have a hard time looking at the United States now as a reliable partner in that effort.

Brigid Bergin: As I mentioned, you interviewed six world leaders recently about how their nations are adapting to a hotter planet and how they are altering their strategies given the retreat of the United States. Can you remind us again how the Trump administration has retreated from global efforts to mitigate climate change, some of the specific steps they've taken to withdraw their support from some of these global agreements?

David Gelles: Absolutely. I think it's important to separate what's happening here in the United States and how the United States shows up on the world stage. What we do here domestically actually is very consequential, even if it's not around international diplomacy, because we are the world's largest economy. Historically, the world's largest emitter. What we do here at home really matters, and we can come back to that, but just on the ways in which the United States government is showing up on the world stage on these issues. On President Trump's first day in office in January, he pulled the country out of the Paris climate accord.

This was the 2015 pact by almost every nation in the world that pledged to try to keep planetary temperatures to less than 2 degrees Celsius above pre-industrial levels. We're on our way to blow past that. Now we have, again, the world's largest economy saying it doesn't even respect that goal. Fast forward a few months later, we saw the dismantling of USAID. Now, a lot of those development programs, as listeners will understand by this point, were focused on things like alleviating hunger, helping on medical issues, but a lot of USAID was also working on climate adaptation and mitigation efforts in the developing world. All those programs are gone.

Let's look ahead two months from now to the United Nations Climate Change Conference, which will take place in Brazil, COP30. This is a conference where all the leaders of the world get together, talk about their next steps. We don't even know if the United States is showing up this year. We expect, frankly, that they probably won't. The last thing I would add to this list is that whereas you had a Biden administration that was trying to promote renewable energy at home and abroad, you now have the Trump administration using the effort to export American natural gas as part of its diplomatic toolkit.

At just about every level, you see, again, an absolute reversal from what the previous administration was doing and from the way many world leaders told it to me, a real detrimental set of policies by this administration that are working against global efforts to try to get our arms around this colossal issue of a warming planet.

Brigid Bergin: We have a text from a listener, Leo, in Bergen County, that I think speaks to this struggle that is being encountered internationally, but also domestically by these shifting policies. Leo wrote, "I've spent the last few years helping towns plan to reduce their residents and businesses' energy costs by taking advantage of state and federal incentives. Now it's unclear whether these efforts have any future as the administration not only strips away incentives, but puts tariffs on energy technology." David, we are obviously focusing on more of an international lens in this conversation, but I'd love to get your reaction to what Leo texted because it's being felt domestically as well.

David Gelles: No doubt about it. I think what Leo just pointed to is tied up in one of the Trump administration's most concerted efforts to roll back Biden-era climate policies. That was the real dismantling of the major legislation known as the Inflation Reduction Act. Now, there was a lot of quibbling about the title of that bill when it became law during the Biden administration. At the end of the day, this was a law that was really designed to promote clean energy in the United States. It included all sorts of tax incentives for renewable energy at the local level.

Among the many things this White House has done over the last several months is really takes steps to roll back those tax credits, roll back those clean energy incentives. There's no doubt about it, what Leo [unintelligible 00:09:53] impact feeling at that local level is playing out in communities all across the country. I think he identified a really critical issue here, which is predictability. Whether it is state and local offices trying to plan for the next couple years, or businesses trying to plan for the next few quarters or the next few investment cycles, that policy consistency is what they are looking for.

This whiplash, again, changing four years, four years on, four years off, it creates a really chaotic investment that makes it extremely hard for corporations and local municipalities to invest in the programs that they believe will have some of these long-term payoffs. We see this happening in the renewable energy industry. I did a lot of reporting during the Biden administration about how international companies, domestic companies were investing in clean energy technology in the United States. Many of those projects are now on hold, if not outright canceled.

Brigid Bergin: Let's pull back and talk a little bit about what you heard from those world leaders that you interviewed. President Hilda Heine of the Marshall Islands told you that if the world didn't rapidly act to reduce emissions, her country could disappear. What's going on in the Marshall Islands now that supports her warning?

David Gelles: The Marshall Islands is an extraordinary series of islands in the Pacific, and it is among the lowest-lying nations on Earth. The average height above sea level for the entire country is just 7 feet. Already, you can imagine, as seas continue to rise, and they are rising here in the United States and in the Pacific, even a matter of inches or even centimeters cumulatively starts to make a big impact in a place like the Marshall Islands.

Now, it's not only the rising seas that they're contending with, because sea temperatures in the Pacific are changing, all of a sudden, the tuna that the Marshall Islands have long relied on as a source of revenue, they're migrating to different waters. Suddenly, their economy is being impacted. Then, even on the disease front, the Marshall Islands, you might imagine it's very wet there. It's a tropical place. True, but it's gotten much wetter as weather patterns have changed. As a result, they're seeing more mosquito-borne diseases.

All these small changes add up to what President Heine said was a real existential threat for her country. She shared with me one just extraordinary detail. The country recently had their boundaries registered officially with the United Nations. She said so that even if the islands disappear, the country will still exist on the record. I thought that was just a profound moment to hear a president acknowledge that kind of a scenario.

Brigid Bergin: The possibility that they could be underwater. I want to bring in Jack from Kearny, New Jersey, who has another report on the ground here in New York. Jack, you're on WNYC.

Jack: Yes. I've been working in New York Harbor since I was 16 years old in 1968. These are the highest tides I've ever seen. The Marine inspection office dock at 1 Battery Plaza, where the Coast Guard is, is condemned. It was built in 1860. It cannot be used because the tides are so high. It goes underwater every high tide. In Brown's Point Marina in Keyport, their parking lot goes underwater constantly. Swan's Point, Barnegat Bay, the Beaton's Boatyard goes underwater every time there's a northeast wind. Not a northeastern, a northeast window.

David Gelles: Wow.

Jack: We're talking, the tides are the highest I've ever seen in my lifetime. Also, there's species that are going north. Striped bass are now being caught in Canada, in both Nova Scotia and in Newfoundland. Never been seen that high up, that far up. If this man doesn't believe in climate change, he's out of his mind. He's a lunatic.

Brigid Bergin: Jack, thanks for that call and for those local reports. I mean, David, I had just asked you a question about the Marshall Islands, and we were reflecting on their literal existential crisis. Then Jack calls in with versions of that happening right in our backyard.

David Gelles: It's absolutely true. New York's a big city. I've lived here for a long time. I was born in the city. I love this city. When I look at some of the projections about what might happen to some of the low-lying neighborhoods, whether it's lower Manhattan, whether it's Red Hook, it's scary. It's absolutely true. We are seeing higher tides. We are seeing more low-lying areas get flooded when we do have certain wind patterns, certain tide patterns, and of course, we're also seeing extraordinary flooding when we have these extreme rainfall events, which are getting more intense.

The science shows us, because climate change means that there's more energy and more moisture being held in the atmosphere, and that when it rains, literally, it pours these days. I think we can all experience that at a fundamental level. That's why this is an international story, and it's also the most local of stories. Every community is going to experience climate change differently, and yet each one is going to have to figure out their own way to deal with it. In New York, I'm reminded of a story, I think it was last year. I think it was in the opinion section in the New York Times.

We had a story that showed the mock-ups, the renderings for a potential seawall that might encompass lower Manhattan. I encourage readers to go look up that story because when you see what it would do to the actual profile of the city, it's shocking, and it speaks to the intensity of some of the interventions that may be necessary in the years ahead as we, as a community, continue to deal with this.

Brigid Bergin: Let's talk some more about what you are hearing from other world leaders. President Mohamed Irfaan Ali from Guyana is working to take advantage of newly discovered oil resources in that country. He also told you that he's hoping to protect vast areas of tropical rainforest. Can you talk about that tension for a developing nation and what the President has to weigh there?

David Gelles: Yes. It, in a way, is a microcosm of the tension we are experiencing as a species. We are at a moment where we are still in an era of extraordinarily fast-rising energy demand, both as developed economies like our own find that we need more power than we did just a few years ago because of AI and data centers, and the electrification of vehicles. We're also seeing rising energy demand, certainly in the developing world, as another billion, 2 billion people join the middle class in the decades ahead.

Renewables are going to be able to meet a lot of that demand. We're not at a moment where we can say we don't need fossil fuels anymore. When a country like Guyana discovers oil off their coast, as they did some years ago, they see it as an absolute imperative from a economic perspective as well as a moral perspective for their own people to take advantage of those resources.

I think it's very hard for folks in a country like the United States, which, of course, came to power on the back of a really titanic oil industry and a big gas industry, to tell people that they don't have the right to exploit those resources. Yet they're doing it at a moment where we understand the costs, we understand the collective problem that it is contributing to in a way that we simply didn't 120 years ago during the days of Standard Oil. How does someone like President Ali balance the need to exploit oil with the imperative to protect the Amazon rainforest that is in his own backyard? This is the dilemma. It's the dilemma for him, it's the dilemma for the world.

What he's trying to do is say, yes, we are going to develop our oil industry, but we're going to take a bunch of that money and plow it into protecting nature. We're going to use those funds to actually ensure that the forests don't get cut down. Now, we'll see how successful those efforts are. I think it is a microcosm of the dilemma we as a species face as we try to reconcile these competing priorities. How do we allow people to develop their economies? How do we keep the lights on across the world at a moment when renewables aren't fully ready to meet all our energy needs? At the same time, how do we protect what is left of nature? Because all the science yet again shows us we desperately need to preserve it for the well-being of not only the plants and animals, but for us as a species, we are dependent on nature.

Brigid Bergin: Going around the world, another leader who is facing that tension of his country's development and pocketbook issues, and some of the climate change mitigation efforts that he has adopted. You spoke with President William Ruto of Kenya. What is Kenya getting right when it comes to climate change mitigation?

David Gelles: Kenya is an extraordinary country in so many ways. One of those is that among the nations in sub-Saharan Africa, it is one of the ones with, I think, the absolute-- among the very highest rates, I should say, of electricity access for its population. This has been a persistent issue that has bedeviled African countries for so long. How do we get energy infrastructure to people across the countries? These are, for the most part, countries that don't have big established electricity grids like we enjoy here in the United States.

Kenya has made enormous strides on that front, and they've been able to do it in large measure because they have hydropower, they have biomass. They've really invested in an energy infrastructure that has gotten power to most of the people in the country. As a result, the economy has been able to grow in really important ways. Now, at the same time, President Ruto has positioned himself really as the continent's climate leader. He wants to lead Africa on this climate journey. That has cost some money. He has spent real capital out of the government's coffers on climate issues.

At a moment when Kenya has experienced inflation, experienced other economic issues, has experienced degradation in some of the services that citizens expect the government to provide, you can imagine that some of his citizenry has started to question those climate investments. That's the tension he's experiencing. How does he continue to try to be a climate leader when he still needs to get his own house in order? There's been civil unrest, there have been protests in the streets, crackdowns by the police. He's come under fire for all this.

We actually had President Ruto on stage at our climate event last year, and my colleague interviewed him about this very issue. Again, he and Kenya, I think, deserve a lot of credit for some of the progress they've made, but it hasn't come without some real costs as well.

Brigid Bergin: We've been talking about countries that are facing this tension of growing their economy while also trying to combat the worst impacts of climate change. You found that Finland is doing both. Can you break down what's going on there?

David Gelles: Yes, Finland, it's important to note, is a relatively small country, but they have done something really critical that I think points a way forward for hopefully all countries on Earth. That is they have decoupled their emissions from their economic growth, their economy is growing even as their overall planet-warming emissions are coming down. As countries around the world look ahead decades, hopefully even years, but certainly decades from now, to a point where they can start to get their arms around this issue. I think a country like Finland shows that it is possible.

Now, Finland's unique, as I said, a relatively small country. That small population means that they don't have the energy demands that a big country like the United States might have. Even there, they have made real strides. I think they deserve some real credit for that. There are certain industries for which there are no easy solutions right now. Finland, a coastal country, they have a large fishing operation, large shipping business. There are no green alternatives for shipping fuel at this stage that are scalable, and so they are still relying on emissions, heavy shipping fuel, for a lot of their economic activity.

While there are some strides being made in this industry to try to develop cleaner alternatives, again, nowhere close to a light switch moment where you can shut off emissions from the shipping business. Finland's going to be dealing with that for a long time.

Brigid Bergin: I just want to touch on a bit of optimism. You write that the Prime Minister of Australia, Anthony Albanese, turned climate change from a very divisive issue into a bipartisan one. How did he manage to do that?

David Gelles: Yes. For the record, this is me being optimistic, Brigid. This is the good scenario that I'm giving you here. Yes, Prime Minister Albanese, he has found a way to try to bring some consensus around this issue in his country. Not unlike the United States, Australia is a country where, over the years, the issue of climate change has been politicized. What he has tried to do in recent years is to really frame it as an economic development issue and say this is not just going to be a cost. He is telling his countrymen that if done right, this can be a new and large, and growing industry that is going to be an economic success story for the country at the local level.

I think that framing and maybe his early signs of success in this has allowed him to forge some broader political consensus around the issue in that country. I'll also note, just tomorrow, my colleague Somini Sengupta is going to be interviewing Prime Minister Albanese on stage at our live Climate Forward event right here in the New York Times building.

Brigid Bergin: Which I understand is actually sold out, but you can watch the live stream, is that right?

David Gelles: That's right.

Brigid Bergin: Okay, so you can look for that. Before I let you go, David, I want to ask you about your new book on the founder of Patagonia. For all your recent work on how world leaders are tackling climate change, this is really a story about how a privately owned company is driven by environmental activism. For listeners who aren't familiar, can you give us just briefly the backstory of Patagonia's founder, his mission, and what you hope readers take away from your book?

David Gelles: Yes. Thanks so much. Patagonia, as many people might know, it's a maker of relatively high-end outdoor apparel gear. People might see the jackets and vests around town. They were very popular on Wall Street for a while. The backstory behind this company is that it is, among all the corporations in the United States, perhaps the one that has been most committed to its own sustainability journey for the longest time.

To understand how a company got to the point where it was really trying to tackle its own emissions, really trying to tackle the unsavory practices in its own supply chain, and remained really committed to it for many, many decades, you have to go all the way back to its founder, Yvon Chouinard. That's what I do in this book. In Dirtbag Billionaire, I trace the life of Yvon Chouinard and how he, as a young man, a young rock climber, developed this passion for environmentalism and how that same set of values, a passion for the planet, a belief in conservation, a belief that funding grassroots activists could make a difference. The very first check he wrote was $3,000 in 1973 to fund a little grassroots activist.

Today, the company is giving away on the order of $100 million a year to the same causes. It shows that the compound interest, if you will, of that commitment to values over time has borne extraordinary benefits for this company and this brand, and the story itself. He was a crazy adventurer. There's all sorts of near-death experiences. It's a yarn as well as a business story.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, you can definitely check it out. That's been the climate portion of our Health and Climate Tuesday. I want to thank David Gelles, reporter on the New York Times climate team. He leads The Times Climate Forward newsletter and is the author of the new book, Dirtbag Millionaire: How Yvon Chouinard Built Patagonia, Made a Fortune, and Gave It All Away. David, thanks so much for joining me today.

David Gelles: Great to be here. Thanks.

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