Title: Cuomo Analysis and More Campaign Politics

[MUSIC]

Brian Lehrer

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Well, we have now heard from Andrew Cuomo, Curtis Sliwa, and Jim Walden in our latest round of candidate interviews in the New York City mayoral race. Zohran Mamdani and Eric Adams, yet to come. We're expecting to know those dates soon. Let's talk about what we just heard and the state of the race generally now with Jeff Mays, who covers New York politics and policy for The New York Times and is covering the mayoral campaign closely.

Jeff, always good of you to come on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Jeff Mays: Hey. Thanks for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, do you have a reaction to Andrew Cuomo, anything from that segment as we just heard him, or any questions about the mayoral campaign generally? Call or text us, 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, with a call or a text message.

Did Andrew Cuomo make any news there to your ear, or did anything jump out at you as really characterizing his campaign at this complicated point?

Jeff Mays: No, I don't think so. I think what's interesting to note is that he's actually on your show talking to you because during the primary, he pretty much ran a Rose Garden strategy where he avoided the press. He avoided being on stage at forums with his fellow candidates. He acknowledged at the end of that race, which he lost by 12 points, that that might have been part of the problem is that he should have been out talking to voters more.

This past weekend, he's been out. He did what he called the five-borough tour, where he was at parades and other events, out talking to New Yorkers. I think it's newsworthy, the fact that he sat down for a 20-30-minute interview with you.

Brian Lehrer: He had plenty of bad stuff to say about Eric Adams and Curtis Sliwa, yet this longtime leading Democrat is asking, at least Mayor Adams, to drop out of the race if he's behind Cuomo in the polls to prevent the Democratic nominee Zohran Mamdani from being elected. I was wondering if it was new to your ear in this conversation that he excluded Curtis Sliwa from that. He did seem to say at the end that he wouldn't rather have the Republican nominee than the Democratic nominee as the next mayor of New York. Did you hear it that way?

Jeff Mays: I think this whole conversation is in some ways a bit moot because both Eric Adams and Curtis Sliwa, we know politicians often change their mind, but they've both said they have no intentions of dropping out. Curtis Sliwa has called the proposition which was put out there by Jim Walden, who's a independent candidate, a lawyer, that whoever is losing in the polls in mid-September drop out. Curtis Sliwa has said that's undemocratic, and he wants the voters to be able to have the opportunity to decide.

Mayor Adams has made the argument that he is the incumbent mayor. New York City voters have put him in office, and he deserves a chance to bring his case to them for an opportunity for reelection. This is a situation where it's hard to see at this point anyone actually dropping out. Of course, that could change as we move forward in the contest.

Brian Lehrer: Right. I think we heard a difference between the original Jim Walden and I think even David Paterson, the former governor, version of this, and what Cuomo is actually embracing. Right? They seem to be calling for all of them except the leader in the polls against Mamdani to drop out. Cuomo is saying no, no, this is just about him and Adams. He's not calling for Sliwa to drop out in that scenario.

To me, that represents something politically. Perhaps that Cuomo thinks if he were able to get Adams to drop out, that he would be seen as the centrist candidate between the Republican and the Democratic Socialist, something like that. He is different than Walden or David Paterson in this respect by not asking Sliwa to consider dropping out. Sliwa, as you've seen, is very close to him in a couple of the polls.

Jeff Mays: Well, I think there's no doubt that Andrew Cuomo, Eric Adams are going after the same base of older Black voters, maybe some more conservative voters in the outer boroughs as well. If Eric Adams is in the race, he's competing with Governor Cuomo for those voters. It makes sense for him to sort of target Mayor Adams as the person that he thinks should drop out, which would actually give him a better chance of competing with Mamdani.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a reaction from a listener. Rafael in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Rafael.

Rafael: Hi, Brian. Pleasure to be on the show. Longtime listener.

Brian Lehrer: Glad you're on.

Rafael: Andrew Cuomo on the show said that raising the rent does nothing, and it's done nothing to address the affordability crisis. I think that shows how out of touch he is with the reality of the housing market in New York City. There are one million rent-stabilized apartments in this city. That is the bedrock of affordable housing in the city. I'm an eviction defense lawyer. When the rents were frozen under Bill de Blasio, that made a huge difference in the lives of the New Yorkers living in those rent-stabilized apartments.

Under the current mayor, there have been big jumps determined by the Rent Guidelines Board — mayor appoints those members — and I've seen so many of my clients, and we've seen so many New Yorkers pushed to the brink by those increases. It's not a surprise that someone living in an $8,200 a month apartment might not be thinking about the one million households in those rent-stabilized households. That's, to me, disqualifying for mayor, and I would say, "Mr. Cuomo, you haven't lived in New York City in 30 years. You said that you've been in Prime Time. We all know the show got canceled. We don't want you back."

Brian Lehrer: That was Chris Cuomo, but I hear what you're saying.

Rafael: He said he was in Prime Time.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Well, I guess his-

Rafael: The governor used the term "prime time." Yes.

Brian Lehrer: -governorship got canceled.

Rafael: Right. He used the term "prime time."

Brian Lehrer: I'm glad you brought this up because it was one detail that, if I had more time, I would have followed up on. You can't follow up on every single thing if you want to cover some ground. When he said freezing the rent under de Blasio didn't solve the affordable housing crisis in New York City, the follow-up question could have been, "Well, it did something for those rent stabilized tenants-

Rafael: Right. That's one million apartments.

Brian Lehrer: -and it's not relevant to the question of whether more affordable housing gets built," and see if he had an argument that says it is relevant to more affordable housing being built. For you, as a affordable housing lawyer, as you identified yourself, what would you say about that, very briefly? I can give you a 15-second soundbite on this.

Rafael: I would say yes, and I would say freezing the rent keeps those rent-stabilized apartments affordable. We need to build more housing that is affordable. It is all the bug, but that keeps rents down and that keeps people in their houses, keeps them out of eviction court, keeps them out of homeless shelters. People need to expand their homes.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for your call. I appreciate it. Jeff Mays, anything on this? Can you get into the weeds enough to compare how Andrew Cuomo vs. Zohran Mamdani would create more affordable housing?

Jeff Mays: I think that the first part of Mamdani's proposal is that affordability is a huge challenge, and he's going to do things immediately to address that issue, separate and apart from the conversation about building more housing. Freezing the rent, again, for a million rent-stabilized tenants is immediate relief in a city that is one of the most expensive in the country. Not only that, it's been done before. Bill de Blasio froze the rent multiple times when he was mayor as well. The conversation about building housing, I found that interesting because Governor Cuomo, he was governor for 12 years, and the governor of New York certainly can incentivize the building of affordable housing in New York City.

New York City is often referred to as a creature of the state, meaning that the state has a lot of control over the rules and laws that the city uses to govern. The notion that he is dismissing the idea that he needs to be mayor to help with affordable housing in New York City, when he was governor for 12 years and had a large amount of power to help make changes with affordable housing, was a little surprising to hear from him.

Brian Lehrer: I think we have a caller to that point. Reid in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Reid.

Reid: Hi, Brian. Long time, long time. I was in shock listening to that conversation. He is running this very out-of-touch campaign based on managerial expertise and a long track record in history of "getting the job done," which he's now since pivoted to affordability after he got trounced by Zohran. He couldn't point to a single framework or accomplishment in all of his years as governor or HUD secretary of an actual example of him building affordable housing. He just said, "We know how to get it done. We know how to get it done." I find that, from someone who loves talking about his expertise and experience, very troubling.

Brian Lehrer: Well, he mentioned some things, I think, particularly with respect to the HUD years when he was Secretary of Housing and Urban Development under President Clinton. Not to go over and over the same point, but Jeff, it goes to the point you were making before that Cuomo said in the interview that the housing shortage got worse during his 10 years as governor because he wasn't mayor, and it's on the mayor to solve the affordable housing shortage in New York City. As you said, and I think it's fair, just as a matter of fact, that it's very much on the state, right?

Jeff Mays: Absolutely. The affordable housing programs, 421-a and its successor, those are negotiated in Albany. That has a huge effect on whether developers are interested in building housing in the city. To dismiss the governor's role in that in creating and incentivizing affordable housing in the state's largest city, and the economic driver of not only New York State but of the country, it just doesn't stand up to credibility to remove yourself from that when you were governor for a decade and had an opportunity to incentivize affordable housing being built.

Brian Lehrer: Further to that, a listener texts, "Overall, Cuomo seems to think the mayor has no power. He took credit for de Blasio's accomplishments and pooh-poohs Mamdani's proposals since he'd need to work with the state."

Let me touch a couple of other things with you very briefly before you go, about the Trump administration lawsuit against New York's sanctuary city laws filed on Friday. Do you think Trump is trying to influence this race in any particular way or toward any particular candidate?

Jeff Mays: It's clear that President Trump would not want-- or maybe he does want Zohran Mamdani as mayor. He would serve as a useful foil for him. He has incorrectly and falsely called Mamdani a communist many times. I think the idea that he could use Mamdani as a foil against all that's wrong with this country — we're sliding towards socialism — might actually be a useful tool for him. He said nice things about Andrew Cuomo, for example. He said he knows him and he thinks he could work well with him.

Mayor Adams, as we know, has pursued less aggressive tactics against President Trump, not speaking out on several issues. For example, the conditions at 26 Federal Plaza, where migrants are being detained. The mayor at first dismissed that as a federal problem, and when he was asked about it again the next day, he then said, "Okay, we're going to send a letter and find out about the conditions that are there."

Then, of course, you have the situation with the mayor's legal issues, his five-count indictment, which the Trump administration, the Justice Department, dismissed that explicitly, as Governor Cuomo said, so that Mayor Adams could help with his immigration agenda. Of course, Mayor Adams has denied that he is participating in any sort of quid pro quo.

Brian Lehrer: One more call. Rick in Astoria, you're on WNYC. Hi, Rick.

Rick: Hi, Brian. The point that I wanted to make was that for all of the great ideas that Mamdani has, and many of them are really progressive ideas that I think would really improve life for so many people in New York City, I think Cuomo has a point. He's got to get the state assembly and the state in general behind him, and he hasn't been able to come up with a plan to prove that he can get that done. The point that an assemblyman on Long Island or an assemblyman from Buffalo is going to raise taxes on corporations in their districts to help New York City, we know is not going to fly, so how are you going to get it done?

I think for all the great ideas that Mamdani has, for the progressive agenda that I think would really help so many people in New York City, I think that that is the one point that Cuomo made today that really needs to be addressed by the Mamdani campaign.

Brian Lehrer: Rick, thank you very much. I'm glad he brought that up because it was a very specific political analysis that Mr. Cuomo was giving. I think Rick cited it accurately, Jeff, that this increase on taxes for millionaires, for example, that Mr. Mamdani wants to fund his programs, like universal childcare, would be on people making a million dollars or more a year anywhere in the state, but the money would all be used to go to New York City. Why would a member of the state legislature who has to pass on that from Westchester or from Buffalo ever agree to that if the money isn't even going to help their district? Did Cuomo at least get that factually right?

Jeff Mays: I think there's a little bit of just politics going on there. When you look at Mamdani's housing proposals, freezing the rent, as we said, has been done in the recent past. His proposals for affordable housing are relatively modest. He didn't propose building the most new units. He proposed 200,000 units of affordable housing over 10 years and increasing enforcement on bad landlords who don't provide safe conditions for their tenants. That is not a out-there sort of proposal.

I think you can look at what happened with Governor Cuomo and Mayor de Blasio as an example of how Mamdani might be able to get his agenda done. If he wins this election, and if he wins with a decent amount of support from voters, he's going to have a great amount of political capital. Bill de Blasio also called for raising taxes on the wealthy to fund Pre-K. Governor Cuomo of course resisted that, but the pressure and the demand and the support for the idea of universal Pre-K was so great that Governor Cuomo found the money to fund and start the program. I think Mamdani will have the same impetus coming into office if he wins in a significant manner.

Brian Lehrer: On that specific point, that the Mamdani proposal is for a tax increase on anybody anywhere in the state taking in more than a million dollars a year, but that all the money from that would only go to programs in the city, is that accurate?

Jeff Mays: He doesn't have control over that, right? Again, we have legislatures and legislators in Albany who figure out how tax money that is raised is used and distributed. Mamdani has said he's not wedded to the idea of raising taxes on the wealthy to get some of the programs he wants. That he's open and more interested in getting the actual results. I think it's a little bit of misdirection to point at that, that idea that taxes will go up for the most wealthy across the state. Whether that money is utilized just in New York, I doubt that would happen because the state legislature represents the entire state.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing, I did not mention with Mr. Cuomo the sexual harassment claims, his resignation after the report from the attorney general. Generally, I feel like in a limited amount of time, it was better to spend that time on policy. That people know how they feel about the sexual harassment claims and his resignation over that, and it's already baked in. There was one piece of new news last week: that the state settled with one of his accusers. Brittany Commisso, who was an aide to the governor, and accused him of groping — among other things — settled. There are competing versions of who ducked here.

Did Ms. Commisso duck because she didn't want to have to prove her claims in open court, which the Cuomo campaign says she couldn't have proven because they were false, or did the state duck and cost the taxpayers $450,000 in that settlement because Mr. Cuomo didn't want to have to defend his actions in court? Is it clear?

Jeff Mays: Look, I don't think so. Lawsuits get settled all the time. If you listen to some of the women who have accused the governor of sexual harassment, they feel that they have been attacked. The state is paying his legal fees. That he's used that to his benefit to go on the attack against them. In some ways, it might be understandable if Brittany Commisso wants to put an end to this once and for all and get it out of the way.

Governor Cuomo has been-- The issue of his sexual harassment was a strong issue in the primary. Many people attacked him on it. Brad Lander, for example, during the debates, landed really some devastating critiques of the governor in terms of sexual harassment. Whether it will be an issue or continue to be an issue in the general election remains to be seen. Certainly, you might understand some of these victims wanting to put this behind them.

Brian Lehrer: Or alleged victims as-

Jeff Mays: Alleged victims, correct.

Brian Lehrer: -the former governor would say. Jeff Mays, covering the mayoral campaign for The New York Times. Thanks so much.

Jeff Mays: Thank you.

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