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Matt Katz: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Matt Katz, former reporter here at WNYC and Gothamist. I'm now running a news and culture interview podcast in Philadelphia called City Cast Philly, and I'm filling in for Brian today. Coming up on the show, we'll talk to our lead Eric Adams reporter Elizabeth Kim about the news this morning just broke that the case against the mayor is being dismissed. Yes, this is breaking news and we're going to get into it. Plus, the mayor's increasingly sharp attacks against former Governor Andrew Cuomo, who is currently leading the polls by a wide margin. Will this morning's news affect this race? It certainly will. We're going to talk about that with Liz Kim as well.

Then we want to hear from prospective college students and their parents about how politics is influencing their decisions on where to go to school in the fall. My guest will be a college admissions counselor who will be able to offer some advice, too. We'll talk about the evolution of Wikipedia, which is now a fairly credible source of information, and why Elon Musk is not a fan.

In addition to the Adams news, we're also going to spend a good amount of time this morning talking about Luigi Mangione, the man accused of stalking and killing UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Mangione now faces the death penalty. Yesterday, Attorney General Pam Bondi instructed the US attorney's office in New York to seek the death penalty against Mangione, who has not actually been indicted yet on federal charges. He has pleaded not guilty to state charges.

Joining us now to talk through what that means and how it all came about is Samantha Max, a reporter covering criminal justice for WNYC and Gothamist. Samantha also happens to be my former colleague and cubicle mate at WNYC. Samantha has been covering this case since the start, and she actually has witnessed a government execution, which we will talk about. Good morning, Sam.

Samantha Max: Hi, Matt.

Matt Katz: Sam, we have to start with this Adams news before we get into Mangione, just broke as we were getting everything together today in the studio. I wanted to get your reaction about Mayor Adams, the dismissal of the case against him with prejudice. Can you give us an explainer about what this means?

Samantha Max: Going back a few weeks, the Department of Justice directed prosecutors here in New York City to dismiss the case against Adams without prejudice. That means that there would be a chance for the charges to be brought back in the future. In that directive, they were citing the fact that they said these charges were making it difficult for Adams to focus on violent crime and immigration enforcement. From then on, there has been a lot of concern that perhaps this arrangement would hold the threat of charges over Adams head and pressure him to help the Trump administration with its immigration agenda.

The judge has, after hearing from lots of different legal minds who have been weighing in, has decided to dismiss the case with prejudice. That means that the charges cannot be brought back again. In his ruling, Judge Dale Ho is saying that even the appearance of impropriety cannot be tolerated and that these charges, they can't be held over the mayor's head.

Matt Katz: Right. Is this over, I guess? Is there a chance that--

Samantha Max: It's over. I just got a docket alert saying that the charges have been dismissed.

Matt Katz: Wow. Was the judge definitely going to dismiss the charges and it was only a matter of whether it was going to be with or without prejudice, or was there a chance that the judge was not going to honor the government's request?

Samantha Max: It's an unprecedented situation, so I don't want to say that anything was definitely going to happen. It seemed pretty clear that the scope of what the judge was allowed to do was pretty narrow, and he had actually asked this outside attorney to weigh in on the case. That outside attorney who actually served as a Solicitor General under the Bush administration, he had told the judge, "You really don't have any option here other than to dismiss the charges," but that dismissing them with prejudice would get rid of this appearance of impropriety.

Matt Katz: Yes, this idea that the government had Adams in their hand and were able to bring back the case if he somehow didn't do as they told him to do on immigration or any other number of issues. Now that is all done with, and Adams can now go on the campaign trail and say he is not charged with any crimes and they've all been dismissed and he didn't do anything wrong.

Samantha Max: Just a couple of days earlier, his attorney had written this letter to the judge urging him to promptly dismiss the case with prejudice, because, yes, campaign season is ramping up. There was a key deadline that was coming up this week. We were expecting that this ruling would be coming any day now.

Matt Katz: We are going to get into this a little later in the hour with our own Elizabeth Kim, the WNYC and Gothamist Eric Adams reporter. She'll talk about the case and the political implications and what it all means for the coming election. Stick around for that. In the Meantime, Samantha, you have been covering the Mangione case, and there's some unprecedented elements in that, too. Can you just first lay out where we are in that case? He has not been indicted yet by the feds, correct? I should ask you, was this a surprise that Attorney General Pam Bondi yesterday announced that the government is pursuing the death penalty here?

Samantha Max: It wasn't a complete surprise. He has been charged in federal court. Basically, in the court system, there are few different layers. Someone can be charged and then someone can be indicted. In this case, he has been charged. The federal government has laid out in a pretty detailed accounting of what they say happened in these charging papers that were filed in December. For some reason, the indictment part of the process has kept being delayed month after month.

It is a little surprising that this directive would come out even before an indictment has come down, but we have known from the beginning that these charges, the most serious of them, were death-penalty eligible. I think the really interesting thing about this directive is this case, it has some competing political interest. You could see why. On the one hand, the Trump administration has been outspoken about its favor for the death penalty, but on the flip side, this is also a case that has garnered a lot of public sympathy.

Matt Katz: Yes, for sure. What was the justification for the death penalty here that the Justice Department laid out?

Samantha Max: It's a pretty brief statement that the attorney general put out. She called it a premeditated, cold blooded assassination that shocked America that killed an innocent man and father of two young children. Bondi said that after careful consideration, she was directing federal prosecutors to seek the death penalty to carry out President Trump's agenda to stop violent crime and make America safe again.

Matt Katz: Listeners, do you have a case you want to make for the death penalty here? Is it appropriate in this particular case? Do you have a moral objection to its use? Give us a call, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Is there something particular about Luigi Mangione's alleged crime that makes you feel one way or the other about the death penalty for him? You could also text us, 212-433-9692. Samantha, as you wrote in your story for Gothamist, Trump has long been a big proponent of the death penalty. Decades ago, he called for the death penalty against the Central Park Five. This seems like something that came directly from him. What's Trump's record on the death penalty during his first term in office?

Samantha Max: As you said, going back to the Central Park Five, people might remember that Trump, long before he was president, actually took out a full page ad in different New York City papers calling for New York to bring back the death penalty so that it could be used in that case. The Central Park Five has since been exonerated. He has not explicitly walked back those statements. Then during his first presidency there had been a long pause on federal executions. Then in the last few months of Trump's presidency, 13 people were executed in federal custody. People have called it a spree of executions just in his final months.

Matt Katz: Remind us why the federal government is even involved in this case and how the state charges fit in here.

Samantha Max: This is something that does not often, but occasionally happen in cases where there will be both state and federal charges. In this case, the federal government is saying that Luigi Mangione committed stalking. He does not live in New York City. He had traveled to New York City to allegedly carry out this crime, prosecutors are saying. That is how they were able to get involved, by saying that this person followed the movements of this healthcare executive and followed him to New York City. That's what's being alleged.

Matt Katz: Where is Mangione now?

Samantha Max: He is in federal detention in New York City in this facility that it houses lots of high profile defendants. Sam Bankman-Fried was there. Sean Combs, also known as Diddy, is currently there. This is a place where, of course, many New York City defendants go, but also some of these really high profile defendants end up as well.

Matt Katz: He has not pleaded, correct?

Samantha Max: He pleaded not guilty in the state case, but because he has not yet been indicted in federal court, he has not yet entered a plea in that case.

Matt Katz: Is that going to happen at some point soon?

Samantha Max: One would think. Basically, they keep setting a deadline for when the indictment is supposed to be filed by, and just as that deadline is coming up, it gets pushed back. That's happened a few months in a row now.

Matt Katz: You interviewed an expert for your stories today who said the administration is seeking the death penalty because they see the killing of the CEO as an attack on capitalism. Is that the underlying issue here, that this is seen as literally a capital crime because this was a powerful, wealthy CEO and the strike against him was somehow a strike against the capitalist system?

Samantha Max: That was not explicitly in Attorney General Bondi's statement, but it is an interesting theory, this idea that this is not just a typical street crime, this is a crime against an executive, against one of the pillars, really, of the US Capitalist system, the health care industry. I think it'll be really interesting to see what the messaging ends up being, both from the prosecutors, from themselves, but if there are future statements from the attorney general and from the president about why this is a case that they're really-- seems to be choosing to make an example of.

Matt Katz: Then on the flip side, in your article on Gothamist, when you were reporting for NPR this morning, you described him as a folk hero in some circles. How widespread is that sentiment? Is that part of the equation here with why the Trump administration wants to execute him?

Samantha Max: This is one of those questions of, how real is the internet world? He has become a meme. Certainly, any stories that we write about him get a lot of eyeballs, but healthcare is a very personal issue. Every single person has to deal with the healthcare industry in one way or another. Lots of people who you will talk to will have their own personal experiences with the health insurance industry.

It seems like this has touched a nerve for some people who feel frustrated by the health insurance industry or just who feel frustrated by executives making money. These are the things that people on the signs that they are walking around with and the statements that they're making on the Internet are expressing concerns about. There's still a lot that we need to learn about what the actual motivations were in this case. A lot of it is speculation based off of the little information that has come out so far. Even just when I have covered the case in court, there are dozens and dozens of people trying to get into the courtroom because they want to support Mangione.

Matt Katz: Wow, how about that? We just got a text from Gabe in Queens. "If the crime Luigi Mangione is accused of is murder, is the insurance CEO he is accused of murdering not responsible for an exponentially large amounts of murder. If we consider murder causing the otherwise preventable death of an individual, the health insurance CEO is certainly guilty." Is that a summary of the sentiment, Sam?

Samantha Max: There have definitely been some stories that I have read just in the months since this happened, really thinking about this idea of social murder and individual responsibility versus systemic responsibility. I think for those who support Mangione's alleged actions, that is an argument that has been made. On the flip side, you have, for instance, the NYPD commissioner Jessica Tisch condemning anyone who is, as she said, lionizing what is a murder. This is a human being, a father, a husband who has lost his life. There is a difference between individual actions and systemic actions. I think it'll be also interesting to see what kind of arguments the defense might make and if they're going to be leaning into that narrative as well.

Matt Katz: Wow. Artie in Queens writes us and said that the government is looking to make an example. Oh, that is a caller, I'm told. Artie in Queens. Let's go to Artie then. Hi, Artie, thanks for calling in.

Artie: Hey, thank you very much for taking my call.

Matt Katz: For sure. We got a note that you wanted to talk-- I thought you were sending a text, but you were actually on the line, so you're on with Sam. Thanks for calling in.

Artie: Oh, and also, too, as far as the mayor, I don't think he cares why they dropped the charges. As far as he concerned, if they dropped it because he's an Elvis fan, that's enough for him.

Matt Katz: He doesn't care for the reason.

Artie: I'm sorry about it. I wish they had to continue. As far as Mangione, my feeling was that I think that some of this, because I don't lionize the man, I think what happened was horrible and it was around the holiday time on top of it. I think some of this is a little self preservation. I think that there are people who have seen this and there are wondering what may happen if there are other people whose names I won't mention who are not very well liked in the-- You know what I'm talking about, be it people in his administration, be it others out there. I think that they're saying, "Let's send a message." I'm feeling some of that. I can be wrong, but--

Matt Katz: Artie, it does feel like maybe this is seen as a political assassination, that there was a political point that the alleged killer was trying to make. Then therefore, this might be an effort by the administration to ward off any copycats in that regard. I think that's an astute point. Samantha, does that make sense to you that making an example of Mangione seems to be part of what the administration is trying to do here because of the view that this was political?

Samantha Max: That actually brings us to his state indictment where he is facing terrorism charges. These are laws that were passed in the wake of 9/11, and it's incredibly rare for them to be used in the way that they're being used now, which is actually attached to a murder charge. State prosecutors in Manhattan are accusing Mangione of committing a murder in furtherance of terrorism and essentially trying to carry out a message to the public, a political message. That is how politics really does get wrapped up in this.

Even if you think about in the days after the shooting, when there was still so much that was unknown, police had recovered these bullet shells that said the words delay, deny, depose, which were linked with a book that had a similar title that was related to the health insurance industry. Just all of these potential messages that might be being sent to the public relating to politics, that certainly factors into this case.

Matt Katz: You brought up the state charges, and we did have a caller looking for a clarification about why the death penalty was being pursued here, noting that we don't have it in New York State, but obviously, we do allow it federally, correct? That's why it's relevant here.

Samantha Max: Right. The state does not have the death penalty anymore. The charges that Mangione is facing in state court, the maximum sentence is spending the rest of his life in prison. Federal government, they have jurisdiction throughout the entire country. It's still legal under federal law to give someone the death penalty and to execute someone who receives the death penalty. If a federal case is brought, whether it's in New York City or Florida or California, there can be that. It could be charged as a capital crime.

Matt Katz: David in Middlesex County is on the line. Hi, David.

David: Morning. How are you guys?

Matt Katz: Doing good, thank you.

David: Doing good. Listen, I worked in DC for 16 years. I'm a former Fed, worked at the CIA, worked at the Department of Justice, worked for the Navy, had a top secret security clearance. I know all about the case. I've been following it. Pam Bondi basically is grandstanding. Like your guest said, New York doesn't even have the death penalty. A lot of people have rallied behind Luigi because they have been denied surgeries, they've been denied dental care, they've been denied all kinds of stuff. Is murdering people right? By law, no, it's not, but when you push people to the edge, and I don't know if you guys saw the video of his back, he had these 4 inch screws in his lower back. It was horrible.

I don't know if you saw those X rays, but those X rays made me cringe, and I've seen a lot of stuff. He just probably got pushed to the edge. Like you said, the CEOs are making all this money and then they're denying claims. People are paying into the system, and people are like, "What the hell is going on? I'm paying for insurance and then you're turning me down." When you push people to the edge, this is the kind of thing that happens. Pam Bondi is basically just grandstanding. It's just ridiculous. That's my thoughts, guys. Have a good one.

Matt Katz: Thanks. You too. Thank you very much. I should note, Pam Bondi might be grandstanding, but she could. If they were to get a conviction here, they are legally able to pursue the death penalty. We should note that. On the second point that David made, Sam, can you give a little background on Mangione's health and his apparent experiences with the health care system and how that might be a factor in this case?

Samantha Max: I honestly don't want to get too deep into it because it's not something that has been in court papers. It's not something that his lawyers have spoken about. There has been some reporting on a potential back issue. At this point there is obviously a lot of public attention on this case and also a lot of speculation. Just want to wait till it comes out further.

Matt Katz: Sure. That's stuff that's been circulating on the internet but has not been legally entered into the case.

Samantha Max: Yes.

Matt Katz: Gotcha. We're going to take a short break. When we're back, more of your calls. Stay with us.

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Matt Katz: This is The Brian Lehrer Show. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Matt Katz filling in for Brian today. My guest is WNYC and Gothamist reporter Samantha Max. We're talking about the federal government's pursuit of the death penalty against Luigi Mangione, who's accused of killing a healthcare CEO. We're also following news, the breaking news that the charges against Mayor Adams have officially been dropped. We'll be talking more about that. In the meantime, sticking with Mangione here. Let's go back to the phone line, Sam. We have Peter on the Upper West side. Hi, Peter. Good morning. Thanks for calling in.

Peter: Hi, guys. I hate to say this like this, but I think this guy is actually a hero. It actually embarrasses me to have to say that like that, but that's the society we live in. That's the structure we're under. The question is, have you ever seen a bigger disconnect between the government, people in charge, the courts, and society at large over a murderer? It seems like, and maybe I'm delusional, but so many people see this person as a hero. If they murder him, I really believe it's going to be a martyrdom, and it's going to actually lead to the possible revolution in terms of this health care system that we need. That's my question.

Matt Katz: Peter, thanks. You make a couple of points there that I want to dig into. I do want to just push back on a moment on this idea that he's a hero on two fronts. First of all, obviously, there were innocent people like his children who were gravely affected by this. Also, it's not like our health premiums have gone down. It's not like we have a more equitable health system as a result of this. I know that the sentiment of him being a hero is out there, but I have trouble understanding it beyond the bloodlust of it.

Peter: When we're living in times where we are literally under-- like his situation, the health situation he was in, so many people are suffering from that. Nothing we do helps anything. We elect people that don't do anything for us. I just think a lot of people just think that enough is enough, and something drastic had to be done, and it's terrible that it had to be a murder. I'm just saying I think it's going to be a martyrdom that's going to happen, and it's going to be the opposite of what they're looking for in terms of an example. I think it might lead to people actually doing something to change things, and I think that would be a good thing.

Matt Katz: Thank you for calling in, Peter, and sharing your feelings about this. Sam, this case really does seem like a Rorschach test on where we stand politically and socioeconomically in this country. I imagine that's what you've seen in your inbox and in the comments under your stories.

Samantha Max: Yes. The thing is, now that this case is in the courts, unless there is a plea deal, which the experts I'm speaking to are not feeling like that's likely to happen, it's going to be up to a jury. The whole thing around our legal system is that a jury of your peers is supposed to decide, first of all whether or not you're guilty. Then in this case, if it does get to the point where it goes to trial and where Mangione were to be found guilty in federal court, a jury would then decide if he were going to get the death penalty.

I actually covered another death penalty case here in New York City. People might remember Sayfullo Saipov, who was convicted of driving down the west side highway, killing eight people, injuring many others. There was a whole trial, he was convicted. Then there was an entirely different phase of the trial where all this evidence was brought forth once again for the jurors to decide whether or not he should get the death penalty. The jurors have to be unanimous on this. If even one person says no, then they get life in prison. That's what ended up happening in that case.

Matt Katz: This would be a Manhattan jury that would be making that decision. It's [crosstalk]--

Samantha Max: Exactly. It pulls a little bit from outside of Manhattan as well, but New York City and a few surrounding areas.

Matt Katz: The martyrdom point that Peter made is something that I immediately thought of, and I'm like, "Man, they're going to make him into a martyr." I'm like, "In a generation from now, are we going to see him on-- Are teenagers going to be wearing this guy on a T-shirt?" That's almost what it feels like they're setting him up for. Is that something you've thought about, too, the idea that he might become a martyr if he is indeed executed by the government?

Samantha Max: There's already Luigi Mangione merch out there. There is plenty of it. I could only imagine if he were actually executed. I should note, though, the death penalty process is a very lengthy one. This is the most serious punishment that you can face in this country. Because of that, there are lots of legal protections. Once someone is entered into a case that is death-penalty eligible, suddenly the length of time that could potentially be playing out before there is a resolution typically becomes longer, if not much, much longer. Even if all of these things that we just discussed were to happen, that Mangione were to be indicted, convicted, a jury decided that he should have the death penalty, there would be many appeals before he would ever potentially face execution.

Matt Katz: I'm glad you brought that up because one of the reasons we wanted to have you on the air this morning is because you have extensive experience covering the death penalty. In fact, you're one of the few people to have actually witnessed an execution. This is back when you were a public radio reporter in Nashville. I think it would be helpful for our listeners to get a sense of that, just so we know what this actually means when the government is pursuing this. Can you give me the backstory of that case and tell me that story?

Samantha Max: When I was In Tennessee from 2019 to 2022, I did a lot of coverage of the death penalty. There were multiple executions while I was there, multiple other people on death row actively appealing their cases. I felt like if I was going to cover the death penalty, I had to stare it in the face. I had to know that it was real. This was a state case, and in Tennessee, reporters are-- There's a whole process that they're not only allowed, but actually there's a whole lottery to make sure that it's an equitable process. I think it was like up to seven reporters could cover any given execution.

In this case that I witnessed, the man's name was Lee Hall. He had been convicted more than two decades earlier of killing his partner, Traci Crozier, during a domestic dispute. He was accused of lighting a container filled with gasoline and paper towels, throwing it at her and burning her alive. That happened in 1991. Fast forward to 2019, he's being executed. As I was saying, a very lengthy legal process.

In Tennessee, as in many other states that still use the death penalty, there are a lot of concerns about the methods that are used. At the time when I was covering the death penalty, a lot of people had been opting not to die by lethal injection. In Tennessee, if you committed your crime before a certain year, you can actually opt for the electric chair. This was an electric chair execution that I witnessed.

Matt Katz: I want to ask what you saw when you were in that room. Again, when the government kills in our name, I think it's important to know what happens. I also recognize that some listeners might not want to hear a couple of those details right now. Maybe if you could tell us about it, Sam, for a minute or two, and then if anybody wants to turn down their radio, feel free to do that. Give us a sense, just generally what you saw, Sam, and then why you were there. Why did they let a reporter in the room? How'd that work?

Samantha Max: As I was saying, I think it's actually mandated in Tennessee law that reporters have to be allowed to witness. Whenever an execution would come up our newsroom, we would decide, are we going to enter the lottery this time? I had just started a few months ago. I was covering the criminal justice system. I felt like I should be there. It's a really almost scientific process they had really put together. You get to the prison hours early, they bring you inside. You have to go through what's basically like airport security. You can't bring anything in, not even a notebook. They gave us these giant Ziploc baggies filled with a notebook and two pencils.

We were in one holding room, we were in another holding room. Then you come into this small, dark room with some chairs. There's a window, but it's completely dark when you walk in. There's a clock with the hour, minute, and seconds. I vividly remember that because as we're all taking our notes, we're noting down everything that's happening at every minute and second. At a certain point, a curtain lifts, the window opens, and inside, you're just looking at the execution chamber.

This person, Lee hall, was sitting in this chair. They covered his face with a black cloth. They put these sponges that had been soaked in, I think it was salt water, to prevent a fire from occurring. His entire shirt was soaked wet from the water. Then they issue one jolt. His body lifted from the chair, and then it they stopped it, and he sat back down, and then they issued another jolt. His body lifted in the air again, and then sat back down. A little bit of time passed. Then there's this announcement that has been the execution of Lee hall. We're all shuffled out. Then there was a press conference where the other reporters and I, we all had to testify about what we had seen.

Matt Katz: Wow. The executions that the federal government does, are they also electric chair?

Samantha Max: I don't believe so. Really, the typical thing is lethal injection.

Matt Katz: Got it. Okay.

Samantha Max: I think all the ones that were carried out in the prior Trump administration were lethal injection. There's just been a lot of issues around the drugs, even just getting access to the drugs, deciding which ones are effective. In this case, yes, there had just been several people in Tennessee who decided, "I don't want to experience the drugs because--" They had opted for the electric chair instead.

Matt Katz: I just had one more question on the Mangione case, and then we're going to go over to Liz Kim and talk about the political implications of the Adams case. Sam, give us a time frame here on Mangione in terms of when a trial might begin on the state level and where things stand on the federal level in terms of timing.

Samantha Max: Everything is pretty far away at this point. In the C case, there's still what's called discovery. All of the records related to the case are still being exchanged. Mangione's attorneys have expressed some concerns about the promptness of how quickly they've been-- They've already received a lot of evidence, but they're still-- There's just so much evidence in the case, so they're still waiting for some things. In the next few weeks, they're supposed to be getting the rest of the evidence as it's available. Then each side will be filing some different papers. Then from there it will take time to go through all of the evidence, build a case. It could be months to years.

In the federal case, again, still waiting on an indictment. We don't have a sense of why it's continuing to be delayed. Could be in the next month there's an indictment or it could continue to be delayed. We're just waiting to see what happens on that end.

Matt Katz: Sam, thanks so much for your reporting. Samantha Max covers criminal justice for WNYC and Gothamist. Thanks, Sam.

Samantha Max: Thanks, Matt.

 

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