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Brigid Bergin: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin, Senior Reporter in the WNYC in Gothamist Newsroom, filling in for Brian today. Now we turn to our climate segment of the week, which we do every Tuesday on this show. Two climate-related bills still hang in the balance in Albany, with a legislative session winding down this week.

We're talking about the New York HEAT Act and the Packaging Reduction and Recycling Infrastructure Act. The New York HEAT Act would cap utility bills for some New Yorkers based on income while also providing incentives for utility companies to switch to renewable fuels. The other bill aims to reduce plastic packaging by 50% over the course of 12 years. After those 12 years, all plastics and other recyclables must be made at least 70% recyclable.

Some of the costs of that would be offset by the companies that make plastic packaging themselves. Joining us now to break down those bills and their fate, ahead of the end of Albany's session, there are two activists, Courtney Williams, founder of Westchester Alliance for Sustainable Solutions, an organization fighting the Peekskill Incinerator, and John Raskin, President of Spring Street Climate Fund. Courtney and John, welcome to WNYC.

Courtney Williams: Thanks for having me.

John Raskin: Thank you, Brigid. Good to be here.

Brigid Bergin: Great. Courtney, just by way of background, can you remind us what the Packaging Reduction and Recycling Infrastructure Act is and what it aims to do?

Courtney Williams: Sure. It is a mouthful, but the goal of this bill is to reduce plastic pollution by 50% in 12 years. As you mentioned in the intro, after that, 70% must be recyclable because most of what we have now is not, and really importantly for a community like mine, living near a trash incinerator, it would ban 15 of the most toxic chemicals currently in plastics that are the most health-harmful.

Brigid Bergin: John, tell us a little bit more about the New York HEAT Act.

John Raskin: The New York HEAT Act is basically two things. It's a climate bill which begins to wind down the expensive and dirty gas infrastructure that is costing folks a lot of money to maintain, but is also creating New York's largest source of climate pollution. It's also an energy affordability bill. Bills are going up. Utility bills have been skyrocketing, and we see that that's going to continue to happen. This is a piece of legislation that can help to protect folks in the near term, and then all of us together in the long-term from where gas prices are going to go in the coming years.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, we can take a few comments or questions for our guests. Courtney Williams, founder of Westchester Alliance for Sustainable Solutions, that's an organization fighting the Peekskill Incinerator, and John Raskin, President of Spring Street Climate Fund. You can call us now at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. Anyone living in the Peekskill community listening, what do you want to tell us about that incinerator, or anyone who has looked into the New York HEAT Act, what are your thoughts and concerns?

Again, the number 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can also text us at that number. John, your organization, the Spring Street Climate Fund, is asking Assembly members not to come home until the end of the legislative session in Albany until they pass this act. How are things looking so far?

John Raskin: Look, we have no idea because things happen a lot behind closed doors in Albany, and it's difficult to tell. What we can say, and the reason we're using that don't come home without passing this bill message, is because we think it's important to be very clear with the public about who is holding up this legislation. We think that the public cares about climate change and cares about energy bills. If we're not passing a bill that is designed to address both of them, who is holding it up?

The State Senate passed the bill overwhelmingly. Governor Hochul included key portions of the bill in her budget proposal, and we know that she supports them, and we have not been able to make that same progress in the Assembly. That's why we're out there in front of Assembly members' offices and doing that public outreach to say the State Assembly majority, the Democrats in the State Assembly, have not managed to pass this bill. If you care about climate, if you care about energy bills, then you need to be talking with your Assembly member to ask, "What's the problem?"

Brigid Bergin: John, even though HEAT is the acronym, as you've said, this is really about energy bills. How would the bill impact residents year round?

John Raskin: In a few different ways. The bill does a couple of things, and I won't go into each wonky detail. Though I'm happy to over drinks or over lunch after the show. Basically, many states, New York included, have this conflict where we have a climate law that says that we're supposed to stop burning gas and use cleaner and ultimately cheaper alternatives to heat our homes. We also have a 100-year-old utility law or public service law that says that the state has to require and the gas company has to provide gas to everybody in the district.

Those are in conflict in two ways. One is we're not actually going to stop burning gas if the utility is not allowed to provide other types of heating and other types of energy as an alternative, but the other is we're paying for these two systems at the same time. We're paying to make this transition to cleaner and cheaper energy and heating homes with heat pumps and using thermal energy networks. All these things are going to serve us better in the future. We're making those investments.

According to the current law, we are also paying to maintain this entire multibillion-dollar gas distribution network that theoretically we're not going to be using in 30 years. In the immediate term, it helps folks by capping energy bills, and that's going to make a big difference, particularly for low income rate payers, for folks who are struggling to pay energy bills, but big picture, it's going to make it cheaper for everybody by helping us stop investing in these pipelines and this network that is so expensive to maintain and is dirty, and we're leading it anyway.

Brigid Bergin: Courtney, you're the co-founder of Westchester Alliance for Sustainable Solutions, as I've mentioned. You're fighting this highly polluting Peekskill trash incinerator. For listeners who aren't familiar with that, can you talk about that incinerator and its impact on your community?

Courtney Williams: Sure. A lot of folks know it as Wheelabrator or the WIN Waste trash incinerator, and it burns the garbage of 90% of Westchester County residents. It has been there for 40 years. If it fulfills its contract with Westchester County, it will be tied as the oldest incinerator in the country. For 40 years-- It is also Westchester County's largest industrial air polluter. It puts out a large amount of air pollution. It is in Peekskill. We are a predominantly minority community.

A lot of Black and brown folks. It is not a coincidence that that is where they put the trash incinerator. I've toured the facility myself. The reason the Packaging Reduction and Recycling Infrastructure Act is so important is because of the vast amount of plastics that are burned there, because it's a very tiny percentage of the plastics that are made that actually get recycled.

That means in the smoke stacks of what the incinerator puts out are all the components of those plastics, like lead and mercury, and a whole bunch of stuff we don't even test for, like PFAS. I think a lot of folks think like, "Oh, if they're meeting the air emissions standards, then it must be safe." It's really not. We know, for a fact, the science is clear, that air pollution harms health, even legally allowable limits.

What WASS is working towards is convincing our county executive, our board of legislators and staff at the county, that trash incineration is not sustainable, it is not safe, it is not green. Peekskill residents have suffered for long enough, and it's time for us to move the county to zero waste. The Packaging Reduction and Recycling Infrastructure Act, with that 50% reduction in plastic over 12 years, would put us a long way towards doing that.

Brigid Bergin: I think you're giving us a sense of this now, but I've seen that the Peekskill incinerator has an F rating from the American Lung Association. That means living in that area, the day-to-day experience is what? You've already said that some of those forever chemicals, the PFAS chemicals, are part of what you're breathing in every day, but are you also seeing increased asthma rates? Is this something that really-- Are people living with headaches? What is it like to be on the ground there?

Courtney Williams: Sure. Just to clarify, it's all of Westchester County that gets an F from the American Lung Association. The air pollution from the incinerator doesn't know to stay in Peekskill and only harm Black and brown folks there. It really does impact the entire area of the Hudson Valley. If you look at New York State Department of Health data, it is clear we have almost double the rate of asthma emergency room visits in Peekskill as the rest of Westchester County and higher than the rest of the state when you exclude New York City.

When you look at rates of cardiovascular problems, low birth weight births, we are most definitely seeing those health effects that the science connects to air pollution directly affecting the population of Peekskill. As part of their Climate Leadership and Community Protection Act implementation, that's another mouthful, New York State put out this disadvantaged communities criteria where they want to make sure the funding from the CLCPA goes to communities like Peekskill that are dealing with the effects of systemic environmental racism.

They found that MyCensus tracked in Peekskill has a higher environmental burden of pollution, higher than 98% of census tracts in New York State. That is overwhelming. To go hand-in-hand with that, is we have a vulnerability score higher than 84% of census tracts in the state, meaning our population is least able to cope with the effects of the air pollution and the climate change that it causes. It really does link with what John is talking about with the New York HEAT Act, because we do have a lot of folks in Peekskill who are burdened by their electric bill.

When the incinerator is venting, they do it a lot at night, it can be very, very loud. It can wake me from my sleep. When that is happening, I get up and I close my windows. In times like these where it's starting to get warm, I can turn on the air conditioner. I can afford to pay my electric bill and say, "I don't want to let this pollution into my house. I'm going to close up and turn on the air conditioner." A lot of my neighbors don't have that opportunity. They can't afford their electric bill as it is, and they leave their windows open.

Brigid Bergin: Sure.

Courtney Williams: When you compound that with folks who maybe don't have access to healthcare, can't afford a doctor's visit, can't take off of work to get to the doctor or to get their kids to the doctor, this is how the vulnerability is compounded by this pollution. We really need Westchester County to find an alternative solution, and that's what we're really working towards, and why this bill would really help because then Westchester doesn't have to do it ourselves.

The state will pass this bill, the waste will be reduced, and all of those harmful chemicals, or at least the ones that are produced by burning the plastics, will be removed.

Brigid Bergin: If you're just joining us, I'm Brigid Bergen in today for Brian Lehrer, and we're talking about two climate-related bills in Albany that are coming up against the deadline this Thursday, the end of the legislative session. My guests are Activist Courtney Williams, founder of Westchester Alliance for Sustainable Solutions, that's an organization fighting the Peekskill Incinerator, and John Raskin, President of Spring Street Climate Fund. I want to bring in one of our callers, Tina in Peekskill. Tina, thanks for holding. Welcome to WNYC.

Tina: Oh, thank you for having me. I heard your call to people in the Peekskill community to call in, and so that's what I'm doing. Many of us can see the incinerator plant and Indian Point from where we are privileged to live in Peekskill. Anyway, my question is largely political. Recently we had Governor Hochul sign the Save the Hudson bill, which stopped the radioactive water dumping into the Hudson River.

I'm curious about what the signaling has been from Governor Hochul or John O'Leary, who is the energy secretary, I believe, about passing this bill. This is also a question of activism. Would it be best to call the office or write or ask our legislators to do that?

Brigid Bergin: Tina, thank you for your call. Courtney, you want to pick up on that?

Courtney Williams: I wasn't quite sure if Tina meant the Reduction Act or the New York HEAT Act.

John Raskin: Let's answer for both.

Courtney Williams: Yes. For the plastics reduction, and I think Tina brings up a good point, which is I think Peekskill has a month's worth of climate story of the weeks, because we do have the trash incinerator, a sewage treatment plant, a massive fracked gas transmission pipeline that Enbridge is looking to expand. We have the nuclear power plant. We have a chemical plant, we have a BASF plant, and we have the Hudson River contaminated with PCBs.

That is why we are an environmental justice community because we're not just dealing with one of these sources of pollution. We're dealing with the cumulative effects of all of them. For the Packaging Reduction Act, we have the majority of both houses co-sponsoring this bill. This seems like a real shoo-in and it should get signed. We need Senate Majority Leader Stewart-Cousins and Assembly Leader Carl Heastie to bring this up for a vote. There are the people that need to be convinced to move on this. I think then we can focus on getting the governor to do her part.

John Raskin: Just picking up with what Courtney said, I agree. I used to work in the state legislature. I will say, the thing to do is to go to your own representative in your own community. If you can stop by the office, that's the best, because then they have to deal with you. You're right there. Feel free to make a phone call. It's just as powerful. Just make sure you speak to a real person, and you identify yourself as a constituent.

Because the reality is the leader of the State Senate, the speaker of the State Assembly, they don't care about your phone call. You're not in their district, you're not one of their voters, but your local legislator, your member of the State Senate, or in our case, for working on the New York HEAT Act, your member of the State Assembly, it's their job to serve you. If you stop by their office, if you call and speak to a person, they have to think about you, they have to deal with you, and that's an extraordinary power that you have as a constituent, as a person in the district.

Most people don't exercise that power, but I can tell you from working inside the legislature, when you get a bunch of phone calls from people in your district who know what they're talking about, and they want an answer for why you and your colleagues haven't done something, that becomes an emergency. That's a power that we encourage folks to exercise.

Brigid Bergin: I want to go back just for a moment before we bring in another caller, and talk about what potential incentives there are connected to both of these bills. Obviously, we have to pay to deal with trash. Judith Enck, the founder of Beyond Plastics, told the show that New York City alone spends $500 million per year to ship garbage up to the Finger Lakes. Courtney, is there a monetary incentive for the city and state to reduce this plastic waste?

Courtney Williams: Absolutely. I think if Kraft and Coca-Cola and Pepsi were forced to pay the costs that we incur as taxpayers to dispose of their product packaging, they would be bankrupt. In a lot of New York State, communities rely on trash incinerators. New York is tied with Florida as the state with the most trash incinerators. Historically, burning garbage has been the most expensive way to manage it.

If we can get these polluters, and really that's how I think of these companies making this plastic packaging, we can get these polluters to pay their fair share of the problem that they are creating, we can basically take that burden off of taxpayers. I think that's really a key here, is getting them to do the right thing. As John said, your calls are so important because we do not have millions and millions of dollars to pay lobbyists to get into these offices.

We need constituents voices, and we all shouldn't have to pay to manage this plastic when these companies know it is a problem. They know the health impacts it has, not only in terms of burning it, but in getting plastic contamination into your food. I find it funny. I am many years out of high school, and when I was a junior in high school, I did a project on plastics and what leeches out of plastics and into our food. This is a long-known problem that the industry has been ignoring and passing on to us, both in terms of our health effects and the environmental effects and the fiscal burden. [crosstalk]

John Raskin: That fiscal burden-- sorry.

Courtney Williams: Yes, sorry.

John Raskin: Just going off what Courtney said, to Brigid's question about incentives, with both the plastics bill and the New York HEAT Act, right now the economics of it are set up in such a way that the public pays for all these costs, and a few private companies benefit from them. Our biggest opponent on the New York HEAT Act is not a grassroots movement that opposes it, it's National Fuel Gas Company.

That's the company whose investment is in the pipelines, and whose profit model is based on getting public reimbursement from customers all over the state for making those investments. Right now, according to law, the state is not allowed to change those incentives. Right now the utilities has the incentive to invest in more pipelines and bigger pipelines and repairing pipelines, et cetera, and we are all paying for that across the state.

According to current law, the state regulator can't change that to change the utilities incentive to invest in clean heating and clean energy. That's what we're trying to change. It is an economic problem, but right now it's a public problem and a private benefit, and we're trying to change that so that the public gets the benefit to match the money.

Brigid Bergin: I want to get in another caller before I let you two go. Let's go to Doug in Cortlandt Manor. Doug, thanks for calling WNYC.

Doug: Thank you for having me. The point that I'd like to make is that, yes, the ash that comes out of the incinerator plants in Peekskill contains a number of poisons that are not, I think, well understood by the general public, chief among them is dioxin. Dioxin is found primarily in PVC, but many other plastics as well. Dioxin is the single-most poisonous substance on the planet. Now, when they remove the ash from that plant, it goes into a dump over on Sprout Brook Road, a little traveled road in our town of Cortlandt.

The fumes that come off that are incredible in terms of the damage to one's health. I know of several people that used to hunt deer and animal on the ridge above that ash pit. The ash pit is actually referred to as Frit, so it's known as the Frit Pit locally. Dioxin was the chief ingredient in Agent Orange. Agent Orange is an unbelievable product that Dow Chemical put out for the purpose of killing trees, the canopy, in Vietnam during the Vietnam War. Anybody that was exposed to it suffered serious consequences that still go on to this day.

Brigid Bergin: Doug, thank you so much for your call and elaborating on what other chemicals are poisoning the environment. I want to bring it back to you, John and Courtney, a little bit of the politics at this late stage in the game. We have a listener who has texted in, asking how they can get involved with your organizations. Before we go, tell callers how they can get involved. John, for you, first, you're obviously stepping up your efforts to get the HEAT Act across the finish line.

Are you worried about any particular holdouts or the bill running into any obstacles? You've talked about how you're staking out those Assembly offices. That seems to be where the challenge lies. Are you focusing on anyone in particular, or is it just leadership, the speaker's office?

John Raskin: Well, that's exactly right. Leadership ultimately makes the decision, it is the speaker's office, but they're responding to what Assembly members are demanding of them. That's why we're doing the flyering outside Assembly members offices. All this activity aimed at members of the Assembly is because we're getting a response from a bunch of Assembly members that says, "We support the bill. I put my name on the bill. Why are you mad at me?"

Part of what we're trying to say is, as an elected representative, your job is not to put your name on the bill, your job is to pass the bill. That's what we're looking for in these final days of session and what I encourage folks who are asking, like the caller from Peekskill, "What can we do? What should we do?" I would say, "Take it that one step further. Contact your member of the State Assembly." You can look that up on the State Assembly website in New York.

Contact your member of the State Assembly. When they try to tell you, "We support the bill," say, "But when are you going to pass the bill? Because that's when I'll stop." That's the benchmark of success that we're looking for, is not the rhetoric, it's the results.

Brigid Bergin: Courtney, for you, quickly, in New York City, the New York City Council and Mayor Eric Adams and New York City Comptroller Brad Lander have all endorsed this plastics bill. Is that going to help push it across the finish line?

Courtney Williams: I think there's overwhelming public support for this. Beyond Plastics sponsored a poll recently that found over 80% of New Yorkers support this bill. Similar, you can do a twofer and call your Assembly and your Senate members and encourage them on both of these, the New York HEAT Act and the Packaging Reduction and Recycling Infrastructure Act. Folks can go to beyondplastics.org, and there is a link to the phone numbers, there is a call-in script to make everything really simple.

If your Assembly member is Deborah Glick, or you're lucky enough to have Senator Pete Harckham as your senator like I am, you can give them a big thanks for continuing to fight for this bill. They've been real champions of this. The votes are there in both houses. We need Carl Heastie and we need Andrea Stewart-Cousins, who grew up herself near a trash incinerator, to do the right thing and get this thing passed.

Brigid Bergin: Okay. Well, we're going to have to leave it there. My guest, then, Courtney Williams, Founder of Westchester Alliance for Sustainable Solutions, an organization fighting the Peekskill Incinerator, and John Raskin, President of Spring Street Climate Fund. Thanks so much to you, both, for coming on today.

John Raskin: Thank you, Brigid.

Courtney Williams: Thank you.

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