Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, a segment for the Health and Climate Tuesday section of the show, which we've been doing every week this year. We'll be on the climate side today. Governor Hochul is under fire from climate advocates the last two days, big time, a few days, after two major moves, approving the long-disputed Williams Northeast Supply Enhancement Gas Pipeline, I know that's a mouthful, it's a project that state regulators had rejected several times on environmental grounds, and agreeing to delay implementation of New York's all-electric buildings law, which begins phasing fossil fuel hookups out of new construction.

Earthjustice and other groups say these decisions are political favors for fossil fuel interests that will raise bills and worsen pollution. The governor argues she's protecting reliability and affordability and giving courts time to resolve outstanding legal questions. A recent New York Times story is also raising questions about potential conflicts of interest involving clients of the law firm where the governor's husband works. There's a new advocacy group report out today detailing a sharp increase in lobbying by utilities and fossil fuel companies under Hochul, including firms that have pushed to weaken the state's climate laws in various ways.

We are joined by Liz Moran, policy advocate in Earthjustice's Northeast office, to talk about what these decisions could mean for New Yorkers, bills, the state's climate goals, and the politics around all of this from an environmental advocate's point of view. Liz, thanks for joining us for this. Welcome back to WNYC.

Liz Moran: Thanks so much for having me, Brian. Happy to be here.

Brian Lehrer: I will ask you some pushback questions as we go from people on the other side of these issues, but how would you characterize what these two decisions, approving the gas pipeline and delaying the all-electric buildings law, signal about Governor Hochul's current approach to climate and energy policy?

Liz Moran: To say it's not even just these two recent decisions. Unfortunately, over the past year, we have seen a number of decisions. The governor has made proactive decisions that only stand to benefit the CEOs of the oil and gas industry and utilities. It runs directly counter to what the governor proclaims is her own energy affordability agenda. These are totally decisions that backtrack former commitments she made. Take, for example, the recent backsliding on all-electric new construction.

That was policy that the governor rightfully championed based on the science and evidence that it will not only help us reduce climate pollution, but it'll also save New Yorkers money. To be where we are now is profoundly disappointing and only stands to harm New Yorkers' wallets.

Brian Lehrer: Let me ask you a pushback question on the all-electric buildings law. This comes from the New York Post's editorial board, and it says, "The all-electric Building Act pretends that forcing a switch to electric heat and cooking will reduce greenhouse gas emissions even though New York's electric supply relies on burning more fossil fuels than it did a decade ago." Is that a contradiction here? You need to generate the electricity in some way, and a lot of that comes from fossil fuels. Is it really any better than using the fossil fuels directly in people's homes for gas stoves?

Liz Moran: This is a common thing that the oil and gas industry loves to raise. The bottom line is we're talking about a new construction. We're talking about preventing new customers, new homes from being locked into an extremely expensive and dirty fossil fuel system. There are a number of studies that show that getting on all-electric new construction is going to save these homeowners money. The other thing that's beautiful about all-electric new construction is it provides cooling for people in the summer, and that's far more energy efficient than AC units that many people currently rely on.

We would see less energy demand in the summer from these buildings. Now, energy demand would go up in the winter, but currently our system has excess energy during the wintertime. This would not provide a strain on the grid. Of course, we're not going to dispute, we would love to see and we need to see, to help save New Yorkers money, more renewable energy, battery storage, and transmission come online, but the governor needs to do much more to prioritize those things.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take some phone calls, comments, or questions on these climate-related measures that Governor Hochul has taken recently on the gas pipeline and on the all-electric buildings law. 212-433-WNYC. You can call with an opinion, you can call with a question. If you made the switch to electric heating or cooking, or if you rely on gas or oil, have you noticed anything in your bills recently? We know utility bills have been going up everywhere, and your comfort, for that matter.

Give us a call with your story or opinion, or a question. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text for Liz Moran from the environmental advocacy group Earthjustice. Going back to that New York Post editorial, on the question of affordability, you say this is going to be cheaper for people. They say these ideas, this is about the All-electric Buildings Act, never made sense except as a symbolic trophy to impress Democratic primary voters. They think that's what this is about as Hochul runs for reelection.

Then it says if the governor were serious about ensuring long-term affordability for average New Yorkers, she'd push for outright repeal of the act, not just delay, then roll back as much of the climate agenda as she can. We hear this on the conservative side of politics a lot, that if there are mandates to move away from some energy sources, not just the ability to create more wind, and some of them, of course, are against wind and solar in the first place.

I think the more mainstream conservative argument is, build all the wind, build all the solar, add more nuclear, but don't force people to dismantle the fossil fuel infrastructure because it takes supply and demand out of whack, so it pushes energy prices up. What's your response?

Liz Moran: There are some fantastic reports that show that people who live in all-electric new homes are going to save money. That needs to be the top priority for Governor Hochul and New York state lawmakers. There is an energy affordability crisis in New York, and the reason that is squarely lies on our dependence on gas and gas infrastructure. Gas prices keep going up, and the costs of maintaining and replacing, and expanding gas infrastructure are showing up on New Yorkers' energy bills. This is unsustainable.

We need to see lawmakers do much more to protect New Yorkers from those rising costs. Transitioning New Yorkers to gas, starting with new construction, is common sense. A report that was released just a few weeks ago found that families who live in all-electric new homes stand to save, at a minimum, $1,000 per year on average. These homes are also cheaper to build. According to the New Buildings Institute, all-electric homes are $7,000 to $8,000 less expensive to build. If the priority is saving New Yorkers money, we need to stop caving to the lies of the oil and gas industry who do not care about saving everyday New Yorkers money. They care about their own profits.

Brian Lehrer: Joe in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Joe: Hey, thanks so much for having me.

Brian Lehrer: What you got?

Joe: I just wanted to make a comment, specifically, the amount of energy that it takes to heat and cool a building through electricity is significant. In fact, heat is one of the most inefficient things that you can do with electricity. While I am extremely pro-renewable energy and especially the idea behind this act, over half of the electricity that's produced for the city alone is produced from Fossil fuels. To convert that energy source from fuel to electricity and then back towards producing heat is wildly more inefficient than just piping natural gas directly into heat suppliers to the building. It's a very interesting bill, but I'm not sure I can get behind it right now with our current infrastructure.

Brian Lehrer: Liz, what do you say to Joe in Brooklyn?

Liz Moran: I think it's important to note that New York City already has all-electric new construction in effect. It's important to clarify the existing law in New York City and New York State doesn't address existing buildings. It's about new construction. New York City has Local Law 154, which has already been in effect for a year. New buildings that are under seven stories are already being successfully constructed as all-electric new builds. There's plenty of data to indicate that these buildings are more energy efficient and save the people who live in them money.

To that end, it's really important to note that we need to tackle large energy users. There's concerns about grid capacity, and it's falsely blamed on electrification. These homes and businesses don't consume that much energy. The energy hogs we need to worry about are data centers for AI and cryptocurrency mining. Cryptocurrency mining in New York alone actively consumes as much energy as it would take to power over 970,000 homes. That would be the second-largest city after New York City.

Lawmakers do need to take energy consumption very seriously, but that should not be placed on building electrification. We need to look at the energy hogs that are causing energy bills to go up.

Brian Lehrer: One listener writes in as a quick response to Joe in Brooklyn, and maybe you just did that, but the listener writes, "Please fact-check that caller. Electricity used in heat pumps is way more efficient than fossil fuel-powered heat systems." I guess that's what you were just addressing. The concern that he raises is consistent with what some people here say-- I'm just looking at these other texts that are coming in.

I'm trying to find a good representative one because there are a few like this, that the governor is approving the pipeline for natural gas and delaying the electricity buildings law to help her with reelection next year, because there are still a lot of people like Joe in Brooklyn out there who think this reduces their choice and decreases their affordability, but there's also this other element that we see in the New York Times and a new report from some other advocacy groups that came out just this morning that say, maybe it has something to do with the fossil fuel industry's power through lobbying and even with a conflict of interest that might involve the governor's husband.

For example, there's this recent New York Times story that raises questions about the appearance of a conflict of interest because the governor's husband works at Davis Polk, a firm connected to companies that stand to benefit from the pipeline approval and a separate crypto mining permit. Now, this new report out this morning from the groups Lil Sis, Strong Economy for All, and NY Renews. They document a major increase in lobbying by utilities and fossil fuel companies under Hochul. In one case, nearly by 150%, along with campaign fundraising by some of these same firms.

Do you see a conflict of interest here or corporate lobbying influence, not just concerns about how the public will react in her reelection year?

Liz Moran: Here's what I can speak to. There has been a disturbing pattern of behavior from the governor, where she has walked back her own commitments, commitments that ultimately follow the science when it comes to climate change and would align with her energy affordability agenda. It began when she started the year by delaying implementation of our climate law. It continues to her more recent decision in deciding to walk back their previous position and delay all-electric new construction.

What's happening with the misinformation from the oil and gas industry is sadly par for the course. We're talking about an industry that is extremely well endowed and has spent billions and billions of dollars over the course of decades lying to the public. Maybe it doesn't always come in the form of overt climate denialism these days, but it instead comes in the form of lying about how acting on climate and more renewables would actually save people money. It comes in the form of lying about the benefits of electrification.

What we need elected leaders like Governor Hochul to do is to demonstrate true leadership and show what we need to do to actually save New Yorkers money while staying true to our climate law.

Brian Lehrer: We are getting a fair amount of pushback on this, both on the phones and in text messages. There are definitely people who support, but our audience, at least those who are inclined to chime in, seem fairly divided on this. One text says, "Your guests totally sidestepped the caller's question about gas to electric to heat and efficiencies pertaining to the 5% loss in electric transmission." Do you have any concern about too much demand on the grid risking power outages?

Liz Moran: No, because all-electric new construction is a really small portion of energy demand on the grid. Even our system operator notes that a bigger threat to our grid is large energy users like data centers and cryptocurrency mining. These buildings, as actually, another listener noted, are more efficient than fossil fuels. They are especially more efficient in the summer when we have heat waves that are increasingly becoming a problem due to climate change. Heat pumps are actually a benefit because they consume less energy during that period of time, and they offer a lot of people AC that don't necessarily have it right now.

Brian Lehrer: John in Manhattan, you're on WNYC with Liz Moran from Earthjustice on Governor Hochul's delay of the implementation of the All-electric Buildings Act and her approval of a controversial gas pipeline. Hey John.

John: Hey, how are you doing? Thanks for taking my call. I really appreciate it. I just wanted to say that I have a little cottage upstate, and in the cottage, I actually have the highest rated electric heat pump at 1800 BTU for 1000 square feet. When it works, it works fine. Although I have to say I also have electric baseboard. The heat pump, it puts out heat, but it really can't get to every part of the house, so it has to be supplemented with the baseboard. The real point is that when the electricity goes out, especially, we're in New York state. Storms and things like that, that's going to happen. It's happened to me.

If I didn't also have backup gas heat in the form of gas-burning stoves, then I would go days without any heat at all. While it's good to have, it can't be the only source of heat. That's the one point I wanted to make.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. What about that backup, Liz?

Liz Moran: Thanks for sharing your story, John. It's great that you have heat pumps. All-electric new construction, our statewide law, doesn't prohibit backup generators. I think that's really important to note. Of course, nobody wants anyone to go cold if there's a power outage in the winter. I think there's misconceptions about the gas system versus heat pumps, though people who are relying on fossil fuel boilers for their homes also depend on electric generation so they can go out too.

I think it's really important for people to understand that the law doesn't prohibit emergency backup generators. Ultimately, the gas system is just as vulnerable to power outages as the electric system.

Brian Lehrer: Some texts that are coming in on your side before we run out of time, listener writes, "I just don't understand the timing of the back step from green energy. We already planned for the shift and now we're suddenly changing course while global warming only gets worse." Another listener writes, "Maybe mention the climate impact of gas." We've talked more about the electrified buildings act more than the approval of the gas pipeline. Listen to writes, "Gas pipelines leak constantly in order to control pressure." You want to say one last word about that from Earthjustice's viewpoint, and then we're out of time.

Liz Moran: Sure. It's a real whammy for New Yorkers to have this pipeline approved. It's going to have extremely detrimental climate impacts, and it's going to raise energy costs for New Yorkers. It's not like the company is going to be covering all those costs. It's going to cost about $3 billion, and that's going to be on the costs of ratepayers. When it comes to climate emissions and what we need to do to reduce those emissions and help save New Yorkers money, we need a course correction from the governor here, big time.

There is one bill I want to note that's before the governor, that is a win-win that would save New Yorkers as much as $600 million every year while helping us reduce climate pollution. That's a bill that would repeal an outdated fee that shows up on people's utility bills called the 100-foot rule. These have been really disappointing decisions as of late that harm our climate, that harm the wallets of New Yorkers, and we need the governor before the year ends to sign the 100-foot rule to start a coure correction.

Brian Lehrer: Climate and energy issues engaged, as Governor Hochul begins to run for reelection. We thank Liz Moran, policy advocate for Earthjustice's Northeast office. Thank you for coming on.

Liz Moran: Thanks for having me.

Copyright © 2025 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.