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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. In the New York City mayoral race, progressive groups aligned with the Democratic Party are urging reluctant Democrats to get on board already with the Zohran Mamdani campaign, arguing it's good for the city and good for the party. Like, "Here's a guy who's winning while so many Democrats have been losing, right?" The call also extends to unions that backed Andrew Cuomo or stayed neutral in the primary. One headline on that front, the city teachers union, the UFT, endorsed Mamdani last night after sitting out the primary.

Meanwhile, all the candidates not named Mamdani are urging everyone else not named Mamdani to drop out. A spokesman for Andrew Cuomo released a statement that said, "We do not see any path to victory for Mayor Adams. This is the time to put aside the usual political selfishness and agree to do what is truly best for all New Yorkers." Adams argues it's Cuomo who should officially drop out. Like in this appearance on Channel 7, pointing out that Cuomo just lost to Mamdani in the primary, and saying things like this.

Mayor Adams: We caved into the far-left around bail reform, around all of these other entities, and now he's telling me that I should step aside for him. That's the highest level of arrogance I've ever witnessed.

Brian Lehrer: There's the Cuomo vs. Adams, Adams vs. Cuomo, calls for the other to drop out. Then there was the unusual spectacle on Monday. Probably saw a little reporting on this, of former Democratic Governor David Paterson holding a news conference to ask someone, anyone not named Mamdani. He referred to them as all the independent candidates, to please drop out without specifying who.

David Paterson: What we are really doing is calling on the candidates who are still in the race to find a way to unite behind one of them.

Brian Lehrer: Former Governor David Paterson. Finally, there's the push by some to convince Republican candidate Curtis Sliwa to drop out so Eric Adams could take the Republican line and make it a one on one race that way. Sliwa responded to that here on WNYC in his interview with Sean Carlson on Monday.

Curtis Sliwa: Eric Adams had an opportunity to run in a primary against me for the Republican nomination and chose not to because polls indicate that he would have lost that. If Governor Paterson wants to say, "Hey, all the independent candidates should meet and choose one," that's fine, but I'm running. I'm not leaving this race. There's nothing that can encourage me to leave this race.

Brian Lehrer: Curtis Sliwa on All Things Considered here on Monday. For good measure, one more independent candidate, the lesser known Jim Walden, is now saying everyone not named Mamdani should look at a reputable poll between now and Election Day, decide together who is best positioned to be the last other man standing and get behind him. Walden says, "Socialism represents an existential risk to the city politically, financially and morally." There's pressure on the right for people to get out, pressure on the left for people to join in, and let's talk with me now, New York Times Metro reporter Jeff Mays, and New York 1 political reporter Kelly Mena. Jeff, welcome back. Kelly, welcome to WNYC.

Jeff Mays: Thanks for having me.

Kelly Mena: Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Kelly, let's start with Andrew Cuomo. You reported that his spokesman is calling Mayor Adams unelectable, in addition to the quote that I read. Adams claims Cuomo called him to ask him to withdraw, but the last I heard, Cuomo hasn't even decided if he's going to actively run as an independent at all. As far as you know, is Cuomo in or is Cuomo still deciding?

Kelly Mena: He's still deciding, and actually, he's not even in the city right now, based on our reporting, and some of my colleagues talking to the campaign. He's away from the city trying to see what he's going to do. Is he going to actively campaign? What's interesting about everything that's going on is everybody's saying, "I'm not dropping out," but I question why they're not saying, "Just pick me. Why aren't you choosing me if everybody's not choosing to drop out?" It's like this game of chicken. I feel like the other person's telling you to drop out, you're telling them to drop out, but I think, a strategy that could possibly work is, choose me as the person, to your point earlier about the former Governor Paterson, "Choose me and maybe I can be that person to go forward."

I don't think a poll is going to move anybody, especially because the polls going into the primary told a totally different story of how that election was supposed to go. In the end, Mamdani ended up winning very significantly compared to the next candidate.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Although in fairness to the polls, they did show Mamdani catching up. The trend was going in the direction that it wound up in, though certainly Mamdani wound up with a bigger win than anybody had predicted. Jeff, anything on Cuomo in or out or undecided? I'll note, and Kelly says he's not even in the city, that while we played those clips of Adams and Sliwa, I had no clip of Cuomo to play because, like, for much of the primary, he's not out there talking to the press himself. What's your take on the Cuomo in or out, or still assessing?

Jeff Mays: I think that's one of the reasons people have been concerned about him running in the November election. A, that it would split the vote and create an easier path for Mamdani, but also B, that, sometimes didn't seem like his heart was in it. I've talked to several people who felt that way about his campaign. We heard Eric Adams saying, "Look, you've had your shot." He was on an interview the other day and he said, "Look, we need to bring in a fresh pair of legs. You've ran against this guy, you spent $30 million in super PAC money bombarding him with negative ads, and you still lost by 12 points," which I don't think people were expecting the margin of victory to be that large.

The mayor is moving forward with the idea that it's time to try something new. He's something new, even though he's actually the incumbent mayor.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, Kelly, Cuomo's name is going to be on the ballot. Listeners, this is important to know, I think. His name is going to be on the ballot whether he decides to actively campaign or not. Frankly, I think it's an awful system the city is stuck with this year because the deadline for an independent candidate to remove his name from the ballot came so early, before the final results of the Ranked Choice primary were even known, which is, obviously, a big thing that Cuomo would make his decision on whether to stay in as an independent or not. Do you happen to know why that is? I don't know where that came from.

Kelly Mena: I'm not sure where that came from either. To your point, Brian, the deadline to drop out was actually the Friday after primary day, which seems so close for somebody to make such a big decision. Even then, we were still waiting, as you mentioned, on the following rounds of where the other Ranked Choice votes would go. I think this is just maybe something that needs to be reviewed. I know that the city right now is looking at changing election reforms. I'm not sure where it originates, but it just shows you that maybe there needs to be a change in the system.

We're so far away from the general election, there's close to four months left until then, and I feel like maybe something further down the line would have been more reasonable, especially because we didn't expect the margin to be so big, but it might have closed after the ranked choice voting results if we would have seen. I think that Cuomo's still thinking about it, as you mentioned. If he were to even drop out, he would have to do something. As in, "Don't vote for me. You'll see my name on the ballot. Don't waste your vote on me," type of idea because his name is gonna be on there, and it confuses voters. They're like, "He says he's not running, but he's on my ballot." That's really, it's gonna have to be turned into an educational campaign. Then in the end, even if he chooses, he can't win.

Brian Lehrer: That's right. Jeff, I can see a weird scenario for November, and there are many right now, but one weird scenario could be that Cuomo is not campaigning, but as Kelly says, his name is there, and maybe he gets a couple of percentage points from voters who don't like the other candidates and vote for him as a little protest. In a close race between, let's say, Mamdani and Adams and Sliwa, couple of points could actually make a difference. Please vote for a candidate, votes for a candidate who isn't running. Or do you think that's far-fetched?

Jeff Mays: No, I don't think it's far-fetched. I think that's the reason you have someone like former Governor David Paterson and that press conference he held Monday morning calling for someone to drop out, because otherwise they feel that it creates an advantage for Mamdani. Democrats outnumber Republicans in the city six to one. Mamdani is just going into the election with a clear advantage from the jump. I think the more candidates that are in there, the more chances of splitting the vote. Curtis Sliwa and Eric Adams have made very clear that they are not leaving the race.

Governor Cuomo still seems to be making up his mind. Jim Walden, who is an independent candidate and was the first independent mayoral candidate to qualify for public matching funds, actually, proposed an idea that, they do this poll, and whoever has the best shot of beating Mamdani will stay on the ballot, and then everyone else will sort of pull back their campaigns and support that person. There doesn't even seem to be an agreement on that. Governor Cuomo endorsed the idea, but Curtis Sliwa, Eric Adams have not endorsed the idea at all.

Brian Lehrer: Now, listeners, we can take mayoral campaign politics calls and texts on at least two tracks here. One, if you're an anyone but Mamdani voter, who do you want to drop out? Do you have an opinion? David Paterson wouldn't say who. Do you have an opinion? If you're an anyone but Mamdani Democrat in particular, would you rather rally behind Eric Adams or Andrew Cuomo? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Let's say you don't love the idea of voting for Curtis Sliwa if you're a Democrat but also don't love the idea of voting for Zoran Mamdani, would you rather rally behind Eric Adams or Andrew Cuomo?

Add your voice. Who should drop out? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text, or if you're maybe a Hakeem Jeffries, or Chuck Schumer, or Kathy Hochul Democrat, all of whom are on the fence about Mamdani, what are you looking to see to help you make up your mind whether to support him or be like David Paterson and rally around an alternative? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text with Kelly Mena from New York 1 and Jeff Mays from The New York Times.

Kelly, we played the clip of former Governor David Paterson on Monday calling on non-Mamdani candidates to coalesce around one, and I see you reported on that. You described it as political and business leaders, including Paterson. What was that coalition exactly as far as you could tell, and how specific was their ask?

Kelly Mena: Well, their ask wasn't that specific at all. They didn't even have a concrete plan of how to pick an alternative candidate, but business leaders because billionaire John Catsimatidis was there, and we know that he's a big Republican donor. There was also controversial radio host Sid Rosenberg was there. It was an interesting group of people coming together to say, "There needs to be an alternative if we as a group of people, maybe moderate Democrats and business leaders want to defeat Zohran Mamdani," and it was interesting that the former Governor Paterson was leading that because he's in an interesting position.

He's the stepfather to Curtis Sliwa's son. He worked on Jim Walden's campaign. He's a close friend of Mayor Eric Adams, and he endorsed the former Governor Cuomo in the primary race. It was interesting that he was the one leading this charge because he has kind of a relationship with all the people he's asking to coalesce in this race. I find it interesting too because, different maybe from the last time he ran, the mayor this time is not so much of a Democratic candidate, traditional Democratic candidate. He's trying to appeal to a broader base.

That's part of the issue is, he's now in competition with Curtis Sliwa and Governor Cuomo whether he chooses to actively campaign for the same group of voters, and unlike the primary, it's not a ranked choice voting election. A winner could take 40% to 45% of the vote and win that way. That's really where they're worried, that that would actually favor Mamdani, because as Jeff mentioned, he goes in with such a big advantage and such a big support system with so many months out until the general election.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. If all these five candidates are in, maybe it's even 25% to 35% of the vote could win with that smaller plurality if they all split it up fairly evenly. Jeff, to Kelly's point about all these different connections with these candidates that David Paterson has, you have a quote of Paterson about Mamdani that says, "If he's the cure to what ails the party, then cyanide is the cure for a headache." Wow. I mean, that's tough stuff from a fellow Democrat who was a progressive leader himself at one point.

I think it's fair to say he was the New York State Senate Democratic leader, then Lieutenant governor under Elliot Spitzer, and he took over when Spitzer had to resign. He comes from the lineage, as you know, of Harlem political leaders that included his father, Basil Paterson, plus David Dinkins. Why is David Paterson comparing a young progressive leader of his party, which he once was, to cyanide?

Jeff Mays: I mean, it was quite a spectacle to have, he was the first Black governor of New York, Democrat, to have that person there casting dispersions on the Democratic nominee for the mayor of New York City. He talked about his concerns regarding how Mr. Mamdani would potentially govern, whether his proposals for freezing the rent, or universal childcare were even achievable, and what his position as a Democratic socialist, what that would mean for the city's business community who have really lined up against Mr. Mamdani. Now, to his credit, my understanding, he has a meeting planned with a bunch of business and tech leaders.

He is saying, "Look, my tent is big enough for everyone. I want to be the mayor of the entire city, not just people who voted for me," so there's a lot of pushback. In addition, some of his progressive colleagues are now calling for the party to unite around Mr. Mamdani. Especially given what happened in the presidential elections where Democrats really suffered a beating. They're saying that Mr. Mamdani's campaign and this relentless focus on affordability is a message that Democrats need to be picking up not just in New York, but also nationally.

What we're seeing nationally is that there appears to be this sort of resistance. When you have the former Democratic governor, when you have Hakeem Jeffries just being middle groundish about it, and Chuck Schumer, I believe they both have plans to meet with him in the coming weeks. When you don't have this full-throated endorsement embracement of the Democratic nominee, it just raises all of these issues about what's happening with the party, and it shows the intra-party divide that's going on right now in the Democratic Party.

Brian Lehrer: Does this relate, at least with respect to Paterson and maybe Hakeem Jeffries, to the article you wrote, Jeff, called Mamdani Triumphed Without a Majority of Black Voters. Where Does That Leave Them? With David Paterson obviously coming from the Black-oriented Harlem base?

Jeff Mays: Well, I think what we saw in that case is that there is definitely a generational divide going on among Black voters. A lot of young Black voters are attracted to Mr. Mamdani's message of free buses, universal childcare, freezing the rent. These are things that would allow young people to stay in the city, to stay here, and when you have your first child, and not be burdened by the cost of childcare, but at the same time, older Black Democratic voters, the homeowners, the people who own the brownstone, the houses in southeast Queens, the city workers, the professionals, they hear something different when they hear Mr. Mamdani talk about freezing the rent, for example, maybe because they're landlords, and worried about how they'll cover the cost of their properties.

It's really going to take an effort on Mr. Mamdani's part. I think he's doing that. He was out in southeast Queens this past weekend talking to people. He's really making this effort to broaden his tent to address these concerns that people have. Two proposals they've said that they think would really help Black voters are the reforms to the property tax system, whereas private homeowners end up paying more money sometimes, and this battle against deed theft, which has been a serious issue in parts of central Brooklyn, historically Black neighborhoods where Black homeowners are having their home taken.

Their concern is about what happens with their generational wealth, what happens to the fact that they've worked hard, they've acquired properties, they want to participate in the system? There's some fear among older Black voters, and I think Mr. Mamdani is trying to address those fears.

Brian Lehrer: That's another angle for you callers. If you're a Black New York voter. About 25% of the electorate, I think, is the stat that was in Jeff's article. Do you think Zohran Mamdani, Eric Adams or Andrew Cuomo would best represent your interests and the interests of your larger community, however you define that? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text for Jeff Mays from the Times and Kelly Mena from New York 1 and let's take a call. April in Crown Heights around WNYC. Hi, April.

April: Hi. For background, I should explain. I'm a lifelong Democrat. I was a Hillary supporter. I worked for-- volunteered for Joe Biden. I was 100% behind Kamala Harris, and I have been slower than my progressive friends, my Bernie-supporting friends to criticize the Democratic Party, but nothing has radicalized me or disgusted me more than the reaction of the Democratic establishment to Zohran Mamdani's success. I will admit, I did not rank Zohran as high as some other candidates supported by, say-- on the slate, supported by, say, the Working Families Party, but the guy won overwhelmingly.

In the midst of my growing anxiety, that Chuck Schumer has been ineffectual, sort of useless critic of Donald Trump's depredations. I don't understand how the same majority leader who could kind of make sounds like, "Well, we can kind of get along with Trump. We'll try to work with Trump where we can," or Kirsten Gillibrand coming out in such a vitriolic way can start. I'm just stunned. He is the Democratic nominee who has galvanized tons of New Yorkers get behind him. What is your alternative? I am so sorry I'm Ranting, but I'm just disgusted by, look, your time to speak was in the primary when you had other great, committed public servants running for mayor along with Zohran.

They didn't do that, and now they're waffling about. They can't seem to get together a consistent message against the horrors that Trump wants to visit on our city, but they're fumbling about a guy who's running on a policy of affordability. I'm stunned.

Brian Lehrer: April, thank you very much. In contrast to April, I think, with larger implications for the Democratic Party in mind, is John in Washington Heights. John, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

John: Thank you. Nice to talk to you. I think New Yorkers-- and I've been a lifelong Democrat, New Yorkers need to start to look at the larger implications of this election on a national level. I think it's high time that Democrats, I know there's been a lot of discussion about this, give me the numbers, but how many votes did the previous Democratic presidential candidates win by on a national level, yet they might have lost the election because of the-- I'm sorry, I'm a little scared right now being on the radio, because they didn't have the Electoral College behind them?

Donald Trump just won the country by approximately a six-million vote swing. Six million more votes went to Donald Trump. Okay. The Democrats in New York need to think about this, and think about, because if Mamdani wins, it's going to be a rallying cry for the rest of the country to go, "A socialist just won in New York City." Okay? If Adams wins, no change. If Cuomo wins, okay. If Sliwa wins, I think it would be the opposite effect like, "Look at the power we have now. Look at the wave we've created." But if Mamdani wins, it's going to be thousands of more votes on a national level for a Republican presidential candidate. The Democrats have to wake up nationally and go, "Why are we losing?"

Brian Lehrer: John, thank you for your call. Well, two contrasting callers there, and Kelly and Jeff, I know you're both New York metro reporters, but when you're reporting on New York Senator Chuck Schumer or New York Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, they are obviously the national leaders of their party in each House of Congress. Jeff, how much do you think that's a consideration or something close to John's argument that it would hurt the Democrats nationally if we have a Democratic socialist mayor of New York that's behind Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries holding their endorsements for now?

Jeff Mays: I think it's complicated. I feel like you have folks like Hakeem and Chub Schumer who are potentially worried about being primaried. There was some saber rattling from progressive groups about potentially primarying some Democrats. You also have that sort of battle going on behind the scene.

Brian Lehrer: That's the pressure from the other side, right, from the progressive camp, to get behind Mamdani, and do it with gusto.

Jeff Mays: Absolutely. I think that's what's leading into this hesitation, and the fact that you don't have this full-throated endorsement embracement of Mamdani yet. Clearly though, the pressure is building. Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer are going to have to meet with him. They're going to have to come out and talk about how they plan to work with him. The mayor of New York City is a national position in many ways. People look at what happens here as an indicator of what trends may be on the rise elsewhere. I think there's going to have to be a reckoning within the party, especially if Mr. Mamdani wins in November, and if he wins big in November.

Brian Lehrer: Kelly, I want to get your take on the same question with respect to Schumer and Jeffries in particular, also Hochul, but in between your two answers, let me play this clip that's relevant of Mamdani on this show on June 25th, the morning after primary day when it was clear that he won the primary, and Cuomo had conceded. This begins with my question.

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Brian Lehrer: Governor Hochul and Leader Hakeem Jeffries both said nice things about the campaign, but they both stopped short of endorsing you even last night and this morning. From what I've seen.

Zohran Mamdani: My thinking throughout this primary has been for each and every day to earn the support of another New Yorker, with every call I make, every text I send, every conversation that I have. Ultimately, that's how we got to this point where we won this race. I'm excited to continue to grow that coalition as the Democratic nominee for this city's mayorality, and to show that this is the coalition that will deliver on the most pressing crisis in this city, which is that of affordability.

[end of video playback]

Brian Lehrer: Kelly, I thought that was an interesting answer from Mamdani that day, and consistent with the way he's running this campaign, he didn't criticize Jeffries or Hochul for not coming out and endorsing the winner of their party's primary. He said, "My thinking throughout this primary has been for each and every day to earn the support of another New Yorker." It's consistent with what Jeff was saying before, right?

Kelly Mena: Oh, completely. I think Mamdani, going into this, because he's supported by the Democratic Socialists, always knew that that label was going to be one that was going to be difficult for mainstream Democrats to reckon with, even though it's not socialism in the traditional sense. He knew from the beginning that if he were to win the primary, that was something that he would have to talk to other leaders in the party about, and let them know that his ideas, they're progressive, and he may come with some challenges, but that he's willing to listen.

I mean, he's met with all these business leaders that have such big concerns, and he sits down with them, talks to them, people that don't necessarily support him, and is willing at least to come to the table and hear what their concerns are. I think that's a big credit to him, understanding that his win didn't come in the traditional sense, but that he is here to represent everybody and everybody's interest, and to the governor, I mean, she has a reelection campaign next year, and Mamdani might not necessarily be aligning herself with him, might not necessarily be advantageous to that reelection campaign, and maybe that's why she's hesitant.

You also have to think many of these leaders within their own districts, Mamdani is not necessarily somebody that their constituents supported or necessarily want to see as the next mayor, so they have this precarious position of how do they thread the needle between being able to support somebody in their party that has made big strides, and have brought in a lot of voters and a lot of support, but also reassuring those people that have been there for a very long time, and protecting whatever majorities they might have across the country, because they have to think about that too.

They're leaders of their entire party, not just here in New York City, but across the country, and they want to be able to protect those moderate swing districts that may be seeing what's happening in New York City and feel like it could happen where they're at right now.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Jeff, with all of that national context, or in Hochul's case, statewide reelection context in mind, is it even relevant to the actual race for mayor? Does a Chuck Schumer endorsement, does a Hakeem Jeffries endorsement, does a Kathy Hochul endorsement move any votes, or are they only looking at their political interest in these larger contexts?

Jeff Mays: Well, I think what I found interesting so far is some of the language that's being used to talk about Mr. Mamdani, and what his mayoralty would mean for the city is like, has been pretty out there. You have people talking about the destruction of the city, and the business community. I think endorsements from mainstream Democrats like Kathy Hochul and Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer maybe send a signal to voters out there, to moderate voters to say, "Look, we trust him. We don't think these things that some folks in the business community are saying is going to happen will actually happen. We can work with him."

I don't know if it'll bring votes, but it certainly will bring some relief to probably moderate voters who are concerned right now, the voters who voted for Andrew Cuomo in the primary. When you look around the city, you see the different parts of the city that Cuomo won. He won the Bronx pretty big, by 18 points. The upper west side, the Upper east side. I think endorsements from those mainstream Democrats help people in those neighborhoods maybe feel more comfortable about Mr. Mamdani, and it also, in a way, speaks to the larger question of, will Democrats be able to focus more outwardly when they are in a position where many voters are not happy with the party, where we've lost both houses of Congress and the White House? Will they be able to focus and work together on a platform that can be used to restore their influence in the country?

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue with Jeff Mays from the Times, Kelly Mena from New York 1, more of your calls and texts. We'll also talk a little bit more about the Sliwa part of this equation. What is this push from some corners of the Republican Party to get him to drop out of the race and give Eric Adams that line? Stay with us.

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Brian Lehre: Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we talk about the politics of the New York City mayoral race at this point. Yes, this is a politics segment. This isn't so much an issues segment. Most of what we do is issues, but it's important to talk about the politics too, especially when they're as weird and potentially determinative as the politics of this race at this moment. We are planning starting in September to do what we do in most election years of various kinds on the show, and that is to have a 30 issues in 30 days series. For basically the last 30 shows before election Day in November, we are going to be taking an issue each day and comparing the candidates for New York City mayor and the candidates for governor of New Jersey on those particular issues.

We're going to do our usual mainstreaming issues thing on this show, but we also do talk about the politics, and the politics are also important to talk about in their place. I mentioned in the break the DSA and people's different views on that. A listener texts, "One thing Cuomo got right in the debate is that the DSA website clearly states socialist ideology that workers need to own the means of production. This is not capitalism." I think it was Whitney Tilson who actually said that in the debate, but I get your point.

Then another text, listener says, "Please explain to your audience the difference between socialism and democratic socialism. The word socialism is misunderstood even by the educated." We will get deep into that with Susan Kang from John Jay tomorrow. We continue for now for another few minutes with Kelly Mena from New York 1, political reporter, Jeff Mays, metro reporter for The New York Times, and George in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hello, George.

George: Okay. My comments are that Gillibrand is an absolute, forgive me, disgrace. She was very lucky because Senator Paterson, then Senator Paterson, state Senator Paterson got that governorship after Elliot Spitzer resigned in disgrace over some prostitution scandal. After that happened, he served for two years and bowed out himself. Paterson, that is, because he had a scandal of not declaring Yankee's tickets that he had gotten, and then had to pay some several thousand dollars in fine. In the meantime, because Hillary Clinton became Secretary of state under Obama, he appointed Gillibrand to fill Hillary Clinton's place, because as you remember, Clinton was the former senator from New York.

Brian Lehrer: I think everything you're saying is historically accurate, but it's ancient history, and Gillibrand has been elected a couple of times on her own since, so related to the mayoral race.

George: Okay. In relation to the mayoral race, she has lambasted Mamdani. She has not rallied around him. She has been extremely aggressively supporting and supplying arms to Israel to kill kids in Gaza, and as far as I'm concerned, I voted for her the first time after her initial term was up, but I haven't voted for her since, because she's an absolute disappointment and disgrace. That's all I have to say.

Brian Lehrer: George, thank you very much. Jeff, back to your article on how Mamdani won without a majority of the Black vote. I see you have a quote in there from Reverend Rashad Moore of the First Baptist Church in Crown Heights. We had the caller from Crown Heights a minute ago who said, "The tough part we're wrestling with is Zohran won with the support of liberal progressive white folk. Are these the same progressive white folk that are pricing us out and we can't live in the community?"

That quote from Reverend Moore. Jeff, do you have anything on how valid a concern that is as we veer for a minute from the politics to the issue? Mamdani, like the other Democrats, is running on affordable housing, including ways to limit gentrification.

Jeff Mays: Well, I think that's been an issue since the DSA has become really politically active in the city since about 2017 or so. There's always been a concern among more established Black Democrats that the rise of the DSA came as you were starting to see more Black leaders take power. The people who lead the state houses in Albany are both Black, and you had the mayor of the city is Black, the attorney general was Black. There was definitely a strong concern expressed by the Black moderate political establishment of who is the DSA, and what are their goals, and should we be worried about I live in Bed Stuy, and I see all these new young people coming in, and I feel like that's what's causing the rents to be high?

That has been a long standing issue. My conversations with DSA officials over the years is that they have acknowledged that they should do a better job of reaching out to communities of color, Black communities, even intergenerational communities, to try to solve some of those worries about their platform and what their message actually means for those voters. Now, Mr. Mamdani, as I said, has pushed the message that affordability really affects all New Yorkers, and that's true.

I think what you're hearing from some of the more established Black Democratic leaders and voters is that we want something specifically focused on us. We want to know how your policies relate specifically to us. I think that's going to be the challenge that Mr. Mamdani faces over the next few months, is sort of articulating that very specific vision to what is a critical, important part of the New York City Democratic electorate.

Brian Lehrer: Another listener text with another point of view. "I am a Democrat who identified myself as anyone but Zohran. He is unqualified and cannot deliver on his platform. We need to rally behind Adams, Cuomo had his chance." There's one voter who doesn't want Mamdani and thinks Adams is the one who should stay in. Cuomo is the one who should drop out. Kelly, let's get to the pressure on Sliwa to drop out and give the Republican line to Adams, who is Trump-friendly enough at this point, I guess, that it would be enough of a fit. Is there a force behind that movement, if you reported on this, or any reason to believe that Sliwa might play ball and get out of this race?

Kelly Mena: Sliwa is not going anywhere, that I can tell you. This really started a couple months ago. I've been speaking to the head of the Republican Party here in New York for a couple of months, and there was at least two efforts before to try to get Mayor Adams on the Republican line instead of Sliwa. There were conversations that were happening between Republicans here in New York and the White House about this, that maybe if a public endorsement from Trump to say, "We want Adams on the Republican line," that would push the rest of the party here in New York from the different counties to then embrace Adams as a Republican candidate going into the primary race.

Since the primary, there has been no conversations. I've spoken to the head of the Republican Party, and those conversations have ceased, and if they were something that were legitimate, they would go through him. He has acknowledged that that was a plan twice before, but that they felt that Sliwa more encompassed their values, was more in line with the ideas for the city when it came to public safety, how to deal with the migrant crisis, and that the mayor wasn't going to capture all of those ideas and maybe those voters at the time that they wanted to bring in and have going into either the primary race or the general election now.

Brian Lehrer: Jeff, there is at least still some patter online about this. I read an article that referenced the Republican conservative influencer, Charlie Kirk, from just the other day, who was hoping that Sliwa would drop out so the voters could rally around one candidate who's not Zohran Mamdani. I read that one scenario is the Trump administration would appoint Sliwa to a job as a way for everyone to get something on the Republican side. Any reporting to back that up, or do you agree with Kelly from what you can tell, that that ship has sailed. That discussion has come and gone, and Sliwa is here to stay till November?

Jeff Mays: I had a conversation with Curtis the other day, and I asked him about that scenario. I said, "Has there been pressure from the White House or the Trump administration to get you to drop out?" He said there hasn't been any pressure. I asked him, "Would you take a job in the Trump administration, for example?" He said, "No." He said, "I'm not interested in a job in the Trump administration." He said he would decline any opportunity to work in the Trump administration.

He's raised concerns about how this feels like people trying to influence democracy in a negative way, that he is the Republican nominee, he should be allowed to go to the ballot in November, and that the voters should be allowed to make that final decision. Now, President Trump has also had things to say about Mr. Mamdani falsely calling him a communist, among other terms. It remains to be seen whether there will eventually be more pressure on Curtis Sliwa to drop out, but there's no way to make him drop out.

Brian Lehrer: I think you probably agree, we don't take what a politician says he's going to do as definitive until it's too late to actually do anything else. Right? People always say, "Oh, I'm not dropping out, I'm not doing this." Then circumstances change for them, and they do, and they find a way to save face. I don't know that we take what Sliwa said about his own situation as definitive, but did you get to ask him, or Kelly maybe you did in one of your interviews. Did you get to ask him about the prospect from his perspective that he-- let's say Cuomo doesn't run, the prospect that he and Adams would split the center to right vote and elect Zohran Mamdani with what Sliwa thinks that would mean for the city?

Kelly Mena: I had a conversation with Sliwa two weeks ago about this, and he, like many other people, believe that Mamdani is a threat to the city, but that in the sense of speaking about that, he believes that more center-right voters would actually choose him over the mayor, so he has a better chance. He actually said that it's his race to lose now, because the mayor has his own hang-ups, and comes with his own issues.

Because of that, he is the better candidate to take on Mamdani and take the rest of what's left over, not just Republicans, but maybe moderate Democrats that might like some of his ideas, maybe open to them, and then independent voters, which is what the mayor and Curtis Sliwa and some other candidates in the race that aren't Mamdani are really banking on this idea that, Democrats might outnumber Republicans in the city, but there are unaffiliated voters, there are independent voters, and there could be some moderate Democrats that want something different than Mamdani, then if you combine all those numbers in their heads, that gives them enough of a chance to beat Mamdani in the end.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take two more calls. One, Mamdani, one, alternatives to Mamdani. Neil in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Neil, real quick.

Neil: I think Sliwa should drop out, notwithstanding the immediate comments that he's not going to simply because he's unqualified, just as Mamdani is unqualified. Neither of them have ever run anything. What everyone thinks of Cuomo and Adams, they have a level of experience. I'm not happy. I'm very disgusted by the choices, but at least I do want to see someone who knows how to be a mayor, and Mamdani isn't, and Sliwa isn't.

Brian Lehrer: Okay, thank you very much. I thought he was going to be a Mamdani voter. To be fair. Vanessa in Flatbush, you're on WNYC. Hello, Vanessa.

Vanessa: Hi. I was just calling to speak about how deeply I am in support of Mamdani as a rent stabilized tenant, as a parent to two kids who had and have benefited from Universal Pre K3, as a second generation immigrant who wants to see an affordable New York where everyone doesn't look the same, and doesn't have millions of dollars to spend and buy real estate. I feel really passionate as a Black voter that these are the issues that we care about, and should continue to support Mamdani and his run for mayor, and feels completely different from what I'm getting from Mayor Adams, and just his legacy in terms of like proposed defunding of libraries, of his continued support for over-policing in New York City.

I don't know, I speak to a lot of other Black voters, and I'm hearing this overwhelming support. It's really interesting to continue to hear this rhetoric about swaying Black voters to not vote for Mayor Adams where I think it's really clear who is in support of our needs and our interests.

Brian Lehrer: Vanessa, thank you very much. I think we're going to let Vanessa and Neil with their contrasting views have the last word here, because guess what, this is only just beginning. As I said, tomorrow we're going to have a leader of the Democratic Socialists of America, Susan Kang from John Jay College of Criminal justice to talk about that, and what it really is, and what it really isn't.

We'll play a Mamdani clip from a speech he gave a few years ago as a young democratic socialist with some things that some people might like, some people might not like. We're going to delve into that aspect tomorrow as we continue to cover the mayoral race here, and we thank our guests who are also doing that. Jeff Mays from The New York Times, Kelly Mena from New York 1, thank you both very much.

Jeff Mays: Thanks, Brian.

Kelly Mena: Thank you, Brian.

 

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