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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now we turn to the New York City mayoral primary, which is just 20 days away. Early voting has already begun, if you have a mail-in ballot. Early voting in person begins a week from Saturday. We've seen some major endorsements since we last looked at the political side of events unfolding in this race. On Friday, the Working Families Party announced that they will be ranking Queens Assemblymember Zohran Mamdani first on their ballot, a highly sought after endorsement among the progressive candidates running to unseat Mayor Eric Adams. He also picked up the endorsement of Queens State Senator, John Liu, a former city comptroller during the Bloomberg administration. This comes as many Asian American New Yorkers shifted toward Donald Trump in last year's presidential election. We'll talk more about the significance of this endorsement and the needs of this bloc of voters later in this segment. As for Andrew Cuomo, who continues to make news, Politico had an interview with him in which he said if elected mayor, he will go on a national campaign against some of the things that President Trump is doing. That's interesting. We will talk now to WNYC and Gothamist City hall reporter Elizabeth Kim, ahead of tonight's first debate among the Democratic candidates running for mayor.

There will be nine people on the Channel 4 stage tonight. Nine candidates. That's the kind of race it is. Liz Kim joins us every Wednesday. If you remember, it used to be as our lead Eric Adams reporter just covering the mayor's weekly Tuesday news conferences. Now it's kind of shifted with Adams as just one of at least 10 candidates who are running for mayor to a broader coverage of the race. Hey, Liz, happy Wednesday.

Elizabeth Kim: Happy Wednesday, and happy debate day, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Indeed. Let's start with the news coming out of the Working Families Party. How did they finally land on Zohran Mamdani instead of Brad Lander? Because they were considered the two leading contenders for the first choice in this ranked choice endorsement. What does the rest of their slate look like?

Elizabeth Kim: I think in the end, it largely boiled down to a case that was made on the numbers. If you look at Mamdani's fundraising, he has raised at the fastest clip. He has the largest number of donors. He's also polled better than Lander. Lander has hovered around 8% to 11% in polling, but Mamdani has consistently in the last, I would say, three or so polls, he's come in second to Cuomo. As we've seen, he's also gotten the most earned media, which is also an important barometer.

I talked to two members before the vote, one on each side, and I think the case that those who supported Lander, who has a very long history with the WFP, would be exactly that, is that they wanted to argue that history matters, history with our party matters because they would make the case that, "We know who Brad is. Brad has worked with us." I think at the end of the day, the numbers that Mamdani brought, the enthusiasm, and also the surging momentum was just too much.

They ultimately, they went with Mamdani as the top choice. They chose Brad Lander as their second choice. They went with Adrienne Adams as their third. Zellnor Myrie, the Brooklyn State Senator, was fourth, and they added a fifth, which was very interesting. They added Queens State Senator Jessica Ramos. That was interesting because Ramos was not initially part of their slate. There was a little bit of friction between Ramos and the party. In particular, Ramos was a little unwilling to embrace Mamdani, should he become the top choice. That was actually not a secret.

When she was asked the question whether she would adhere to a ranked choice strategy, which essentially means, will you help support and promote everyone on the slate? She was a little reluctant about that. She said, "I want my voters to vote for me and who they think is the best candidate," but in the end, I think the party members thought that they needed a fifth candidate, because as we know, under ranked choice, you can choose as many as five candidates. If the progressive strategy is to ask voters to leave Cuomo off their ballot, then they really shouldn't take any chances by having people leave a blank, like a fifth blank. They might as well come out with five candidates.

Brian Lehrer: Right. If that's the hope of progressive leaders to not have Cuomo be the Democratic nominee, they have to hope that people in the electorate get ranked choice voting enough to adhere to that strategy that you just laid out. Yes, rank five other candidates, but don't list Cuomo at all, because otherwise you're aiding his chances of being the nominee, even if he doesn't get over 50% on the first count. Also, this decision could have consequences, that is, the Working Families Party endorsement of Mamdani as their number one, could have consequences for the general election if Cuomo wins the Democratic primary, right?

Elizabeth Kim: Right. We've talked about this, Brian. The idea that there could be a really competitive and wild general election in November. This would be the scenario where Cuomo wins the Democratic primary, he becomes the Democratic nominee. If Mamdani does second or performs well in the primary, that the WFP, the Working Families Party, has prepared to run a line and they could put Mamdani on that line. Then you could potentially have a four way race between the incumbent, Eric Adams, who is running as an independent, Cuomo, like we said, Mamdani, and the Republican nominee, Curtis Sliwa.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Yet a fifth candidate, an independent named Jim Walden-

Elizabeth Kim: That's right.

Brian Lehrer: -who's probably on the ballot too, though-

Elizabeth Kim: Absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: -he would be a minor factor. Just to remind people of how that could go in a general election, as we've discussed before in these segments, if Cuomo, Adams and Sliwa split a kind of center to right vote, then we could wind up with Zohran Mamdani, Democratic Socialist candidate, as he's a DSA member as well as Working Families Party candidate, which is what he would be officially, as the next mayor.

If there's more of a left to center divided vote between Mamdani, Cuomo, and Adams, who are Democrats, even though Adams isn't running as a Democrat at this point, he's running as an independent. If they all split the vote, then we could wind up with Curtis Sliwa, the Republican nominee, as the next mayor. Either way, in those scenarios, since there is no ranked choice and there's no runoff, it could be a mayor with a very small share of the vote, maybe even in the 20-something % range, who gets elected. That's part of what's consequential about this Democratic primary.

Elizabeth Kim: That's right, Brian. We should remind voters there is no ranked choice in the general. The ranked choice is only in the primary.

Brian Lehrer: All right, let's talk about John Liu, state senator from Queens in a district near Mamdani's in the assembly. This is considered an important nomination. Why? Not nomination. I'm sorry, endorsement.

Elizabeth Kim: Endorsement. It's important for two reasons, I think, Brian. Liu isn't just a state senator from Queens, as you said in your introduction, he was the city controller, but he wasn't just the city controller, he was the first Asian American to be elected to citywide office in New York City. He is very much considered a political trailblazer, and he made his own run for mayor in 2013, which imploded as a result of, lo and behold, campaign finance problems. He is a very big validator when it comes to Asian American voters, particularly Chinese voters, because he is Taiwanese American.

This is a very important swath of voters that Mamdani is competing for, and also Cuomo. Cuomo has an endorsement of a Brooklyn City Council member, Susan Zhuang. If you look at the polling, they're competitive on it. There was an Emerson poll that showed that by the last round, by the 10th round, the final round, they broke even on Asian American voters. Then I would say that the second reason this is important is beyond race. It's the fact that Liu's political identity is as a liberal Democrat. He's not the most far left elected official in New York City, but he's very, very much recognized because as we said, he was on the City Council, he was a city controller. He's very much a fixture, I would say, of New York City politics.

It's not just going to be Asian American voters that recognize him when he goes out to stump for Mamdani, but I think it's going to be a lot of Democratic voters.

Brian Lehrer: With his endorsement, Senator Liu made this statement about Mamdani's position on Israel and anti-Semitism in the city. Take a listen. This is Senator Liu on Mamdani and Israel and anti-Semitism. 30 seconds.

John Liu: He and I have a big disagreement, which is the issue of Israel and how the Jewish community needs to be viewed in this city. Though I differ from him, we have had honest conversations and he has never lost his integrity in the process. I know that he has opened his eyes much more to the need to protect all New Yorkers, including recognizing the unmistakable spike in anti Jewish hatred.

Brian Lehrer: How do you understand Mamdani's position on Israel, Liz? Politico had a story a couple of weeks ago that said Mamdani declined to sign on to an assembly resolution recognizing Israel, that week in mid May, on the 77th anniversary of its founding, four months after the lawmaker passed on signing a separate resolution condemning the Holocaust. That from Politico.

Elizabeth Kim: Yes. Mamdani's campaign responded to that. I think it's in the Politico story, that because he was running for mayor, he decided to basically-- because he wouldn't have time to read through all of these resolutions that come through and come through legislators' offices, that he wouldn't sign on to any. That was his explanation, and that he has also said that he has signed on in the past to recognize the Holocaust. What I thought was interesting about Liu's statement was the fact that, and this goes to the fact that he is a liberal Democrat and he is also a steady ally of Israel.

He wasn't asked about Israel during that joint press conference he had with Mamdani. That was part of his opening statement when he was endorsed, when he was announcing his support for Mamdani. The fact that he makes a point of saying we have this difference, shows you how politically important this issue is and the way it is shaping the race.

Brian Lehrer: As we preview tonight's Democratic primary debate for mayor on Channel 4 and talk about developments in the race, what are you anticipating tonight, Liz?

Elizabeth Kim: We have a political newsletter, and I was writing about what to expect out of the debate tonight. Basically, I picked out three things. One is this is really Andrew Cuomo's first time sharing a stage with all of his opponents. He has basically applied what's known as a Rose Garden strategy. That's a reference to how incumbent presidents who don't want to crisscross the country to campaign, but instead use the prestige of the White House and their office and campaign from there. He's kind of using, they've called it a Rose Garden strategy without the Rose Garden, but you know what, tonight he has to leave that Rose Garden, and it will be very interesting. He has not debated in a long time.

I was asking my Albany colleagues about this, and the last time was 2018 against the then Republican candidate for governor, Marc Molinaro, but he is also notoriously combative. You know that the other candidates are going to attack him and they're going to want to seek a viral moment where they get maybe into a testy exchange or they land an attack on Cuomo. The question is, how does he respond?

I think for him as the frontrunner, it's to his benefit to maintain his composure, but we know the governor, or the former governor has historically, I think he likes to punch, especially in these types of debates. That will be the main thing I think everyone will be looking for, is we're going to be watching not just what Cuomo says, but also a lot of things to do with his body language. Does he choose to go on the attack, on the offensive and attack Zohran Mamdani, for example, who is polling second?

Brian Lehrer: Right. I also wonder if other candidates, in addition to attacking Cuomo, are going to attack Mamdani to try to bring down the candidate who is polling a clear number two, because that's another route to potentially being the alternative to Cuomo, is discrediting the person who's seen as the leading alternative to Cuomo, at least in the polls, right?

Elizabeth Kim: That's right, Brian. Brian, you basically just read the third item on my newsletter, which is, will the candidates stay united now? When I say candidates, I mean the left leaning candidates, the candidates that are been the main ones that have been attacking Andrew Cuomo. Because we know that a byproduct of ranked choice voting is that like minded candidates have an incentive not to criticize one another. Why? Because the idea is you could form an alliance with one of these other candidates and that would be to your benefit because you're trying to get your name on the ballot, you're trying to get ranked two or three, right? So it makes sense that you don't really want to criticize an opponent who's kind of similar to you.

We already know who those candidates are. The question now is that now that we're down to the wire and it looks more and more like a two person race between Cuomo and Mamdani, does one of the other candidates who wants to compete try to maybe land a blow on Mamdani? We will see tonight.

Brian Lehrer: Were you at yesterday's weekly Tuesday Eric Adams news conference?

Elizabeth Kim: I was.

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to play a clip from that that surprised me a little bit. You can tell me if it surprised you because we've talked here before about how Adams has been laying low, not campaigning a lot. Of course he's not in the Democratic primary anymore, so he has time, but not attacking Cuomo as much as some people thought he might have. It looked to me yesterday like the gloves were off, answer after answer. Certainly, the reporters were raising the issue, but instead of deflecting like he does about Trump mostly, he really went off on Andrew Cuomo. Here's a 53 second example.

Eric Adams: Which Cuomo are we dealing with? These were all of his initiatives. Now he's saying the initiatives that I did, I'm going to fix. I'm going to-- What he did with Tier 6 and employees, I had to fix that. What he did with allowing cannabis shops, he said we stood by and allowed cannabis shops to open up. That was your law. We went up to Albany to fix that. What we're doing with these recidivisms, that was his bail reform law. I don't know, I'm really not quite understanding what he's saying. He really believes that people don't know his history. To say now, I made a mistake. I shouldn't step down. I made a mistake. I shouldn't have Tier 6. I made a mistake, I shouldn't have stopped Bill de Blasio from raising the minimum wage. I made a mistake. I made a mistake. I made a mistake.

Brian Lehrer: Eric Adams yesterday. Just to be clear, Tier 6 is, if I know it accurately, it's kind of a lower tier of public employee whose pension benefits ultimately wouldn't be as much as the earlier ones. Is that accurate?

Elizabeth Kim: That's right. It was also Cuomo in 2012, he approved raising the retirement age to 63, when previously, certain employees could retire at 62 and teachers could retire at 55. This was very, very unpopular.

Brian Lehrer: To be clear, on the cannabis shops, Cuomo was not against legal cannabis. He was for it, but it's about how it was rolled out. Correct me if I'm wrong. The one that may land with a lot of people who may be interested in Cuomo running on a public safety campaign platform is that Cuomo is the one who signed the, infamous to some, 2019 bail reform law that's been rolled back a little bit several times since, right?

Elizabeth Kim: That's correct, Brian. I would expect the mayor to really dig into that particular issue, especially if he wants to be the law and order candidate in this race when the general comes around.

Brian Lehrer: I mentioned in the intro the Politico story in the last day or two based on a political interview of Cuomo, where Cuomo talked about if he's elected mayor, going on a national campaign against Trump policies, certainly Trump policies that New York City would be seen not to like. Did you see that interview or see that reference? It seems to me that it plays to one of Cuomo's perceived strengths. We see it in our newsletter responses this week. We asked listeners last week to chime in. We'll have more on this tomorrow on newsletter day, but on what they thought about Cuomo's leadership during the pandemic. Pro, con, mixed.

There were plenty of people who wrote in. I don't know the percentages, but there were plenty of people who wrote in and said his being a voice of reason when Trump was being the opposite was so important to them in 2020. I imagine Cuomo is playing on that bit of his reputation to tell people who may be to the left of where they see Cuomo as today, say, "Okay, I may be conservative more than Mamdani on a number of things, more than some of the other candidates on a number of things, but I'm going to be your anti Trump and I'm going to be your powerful anti Trump." Seems to me that's where he's going.

Elizabeth Kim: That's right, Brian. I don't think there's a question that as governor, Cuomo knew how to use the bully pulpit. Cuomo knows how to leverage power. I think that that's an example of that. He is a national political figure. He's part of a very well known political dynasty. This idea that he would try to campaign across the country against unpopular Trump cuts, unpopular among Republicans and Democrats, that doesn't sound like such a bad idea. The mayor was asked about this at the press conference and the mayor had kind of a shrewd response, which was that he reminded reporters that, well, it's not such a popular thing when mayors decide to leave the city, and that's absolutely true, but the mayor did just come back from Las Vegas and a crypto conference.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to leave it there. We're going to be back tomorrow, not with Liz, we think, but with others. Liz will be back next Wednesday, but we're going to be back tomorrow after tonight's Democratic mayoral primary debate with nine people on the stage with clips and analysis tomorrow morning, so come back here for that tomorrow in addition to whatever other coverage you consume, if you're interested. As always, our lead Eric Adams reporter, our Politico reporter, Elizabeth Kim, thanks a lot, and talk to you at the latest next Wednesday.

Elizabeth Kim: Thanks, Brian.

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