Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Today, how to get a COVID vaccine this fall, even though RFK Jr. just made it harder for most Americans under 65 and maybe even some who are older. Also, Ben Smith from Semafor, used to be the New York Times media columnist, among other things, Ben Smith on how Trump commands social media influencers, but maybe now they're starting to command him. That'll include first impressions of this morning's news conference led in part by a MAGA member of Congress, with alleged victims of Jeffrey Epstein expected to name other names. Emma Goldberg will discuss her New York Times article today, her article on whether self-help books are making people ruder and more selfish, and yes, we'll take your calls with your experiences on that. We start with our weekly Wednesday appearance by our political reporter, Elizabeth Kim, as she covers the New York City mayoral race for WNYC and our local news website Gothamist.

Also, joined today by our Albany reporter Jon Campbell, who has a relevant take. We'll talk about Jim Walden dropping out of the race. Jim who? But we'll explain why it matters. Congressman Jerry Nadler not running for reelection. Did you hear that yet? Mayor Adams in Florida, for some mysterious yesterday, Zohran Mamdani softening his language on a few things. Politico calls it topsy-turvy. Adams and the Legionnaires disease prevention failure and how it relates to the race, charter schools as a possible issue in the race, and maybe more.

We're actually going to begin this segment on the New York City mayoral race with a minute of the mayor of Chicago so we can compare and contrast. Here is Mayor Brandon Johnson reacting to President Trump's statement yesterday that he will be sending the National Guard to Chicago for law enforcement against crime. Mayor Johnson.

Mayor Brandon Johnson: Today we stand here united as the state of Illinois, Cook County, and the city of Chicago to send a very clear message. We do not want or need military occupation in our city. We do not want or need militarized immigration enforcement in our city. We have been clear on that. We will continue to take every single measure that we can to protect our people from these threats.

However, I also want to be clear about this. There are measures that the federal government can take right now to help continue to drive down violence and crime in our city. We need the federal government to stop the endless flow of guns into our state and into our city. Chicago police officers have taken more than 24,000 illegal guns off the streets of Chicago since I've taken office.

Brian Lehrer: Mayor Brandon Johnson. Little more from Mayor Johnson before we talk about this. He elaborated on that last thought about gun trafficking.

Mayor Brandon Johnson: We will never be able to end gun violence in Chicago as long as the President continues to allow tens of thousands of guns to be trafficked into our state and our city. The vast majority of guns do not come from Chicago, they are not made in Cook County, they are not bought in the state of Illinois. These guns come from red states. They are coming from Indiana, they are coming from Mississippi, they are coming from Louisiana, and that is the harsh reality, whether Republicans like it or not.

Brian Lehrer: With the mayor of Chicago, Brandon Johnson, from yesterday, we now welcome our New York City mayoral race reporter Liz Kim and Jon Campbell in Albany. Liz, happy Wednesday, and Jon, thanks for joining.

Elizabeth Kim: Happy Wednesday, Brian.

Jon Campbell: Thanks for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Liz, how close to anything like the mayor of Chicago or the current mayor of New York or any of his rivals sounding, as Trump has suggested, New York may also be in his federal troop deployment sites?

Elizabeth Kim: Well, what I thought about when you played that clip, Brian, is it finally came together for me what the mayor has been doing. He's been holding a stream of appearances, television appearances, press conferences with NYPD Commissioner Jessica Tisch. Now, that plays a role into his narrative as the mayor of public safety. It plays into how he's running for re-election, but when you played that clip, it also dawned on me that he's also trying to send a message to DC and Donald Trump, which is, "We have it under control."

I think the more appearances he does with the NYPD commissioner in which they play up the crime stats that show that crime is, in fact, decreasing, although we did have another bad shooting, six shootings at the West Indian Day parade over the weekend, but the more he plays that up, I think he's trying to really deter President Trump from sending in any kind of National Guard into New York City.

Brian Lehrer: Six shootings at the parade, but the news from Chicago over the weekend was more than 50 shootings, and Trump has certainly been seizing on that. We'll see, I guess, eventually, if he tries to do the same thing in New York, even though the numbers may not be the same. Going up the chain, though, from the mayor, Jon, for you as our Albany reporter, here's A clip of Governor JB Pritzker of Illinois yesterday on this. Then we'll play one of Governor Hochul last week. Pritzker first.

Governor JB Pritzker: I refuse to play a reality game show with Donald Trump again. What I want are the federal dollars that have been promised to Illinois and Chicago for violence prevention programs that have proven to work.

Governor Kathy Hochul: I said, "Mr. President, I can give you all the data you need to show that crime is down, it's working, our policies are working. NYPD is doing their job.

Brian Lehrer: Jon, compare and contrast. The political context is Pritzker wants to run for president in 2028, apparently, for the Democratic nomination. Hochul, of course, wants to run for re-election next year.

Jon Campbell: Yes, Governor Hochul has maintained a cordial working relationship with the President, all while publicly being very critical of his policies, being very critical of Republican control of Washington in general. She has maintained a working relationship to the point where she can call the President and speak to the President. She did speak to the President about this very issue. She said she spoke, I believe it was the week before last, about the National Guard, the possibility of sending the National Guard into New York City, and she told him, "No, we don't need it here." You heard it in that clip there.

Yes, Governor Hochul's walking this line between being very publicly critical of the President's policies, but also, being professional, having a professional enough working relationship where they can speak on the phone. You actually heard President Trump last week when he was asked about the governor's comments, say, "I like Kathy." He called her Kathy, and said, "I would love for her to tell me, 'Yes, bring the National Guard in.' We'd love to do that," but that hasn't happened at this point. In fact, Governor Hochul has said quite the opposite.

Brian Lehrer: Jon, and maybe, Liz, you want to weigh in on this, too. Remember that Governor Hochul has deployed the National Guard herself to fight crime in New York City, specifically on the subways. Are there metrics from that to say if it's making any difference?

Jon Campbell: Well, there's metrics in the sense that crime in the subway has gone down during that period, but correlation is not necessarily causation. Yes, the National Guard is still in the subways. If you're a regular subway rider, you've probably seen them in their uniform patrolling the subways, essentially. The governor has pushed back very forcefully against the idea that this is the same thing as DC. She says that the Guard is playing a "peacekeeping role" in the subways, whereas they've usurped DC Control of the police in Washington, DC.

There are differences here. The National Guard is working cooperatively with the NYPD, but, yes, another one where she's walking a fine line. She did deploy the National Guard into the subways to deter crime more than a year before President Trump deployed the National Guard in DC.

Elizabeth Kim: Brian, what's interesting to me is that when she first made that decision, there was a lot of outcry and criticism over it. Jon re-examined their presence recently, and what's interesting is that a lot of that has died down. I don't know if it's just that writers have just accepted it and moved on and whether they're still annoyed by it, but you don't really hear people talking about the National Guard on the subways that much anymore.

Brian Lehrer: Well, it is different still when a governor deploys their state's National Guard to when the president deploys the National Guard over the head of the governor, who objects. Maybe it's not even right to talk about whether New York has the crime problem Chicago has and look at it through that lens as opposed to whether the deployment by Trump is an autocratic play. In any case, that's more dangerous, even than the crime, for other reasons. I guess that's a national political conversation.

Liz, is there any reason to think the mayoral race will cause Trump to act or not act toward New York as he is toward Chicago, a way to help bring whatever outcome Trump might want in this election? Maybe it's to have Cuomo be elected. Maybe it's to have anyone but Mamdani elected. Maybe it's to have Mamdani elected, because then he'll have Mamdani as a foil.

Elizabeth Kim: It's interesting, I was just talking about this to my colleague Brigid Bergin in the newsroom before I came on. We were talking about what are the certain X factors that can change the trajectory of this race. We know now that Mamdani is a strong front runner. He's leading several polls by double digits. What could change that? The thing that I thought was, what happens if Trump does send in the National Guard? What does that do to the race? How does that change the conversation around policing and how to handle Donald Trump? Does that give Cuomo somewhat of an edge?

It certainly would make it even more difficult for Eric Adams, who's polling in the single digits. How does he handle that situation? I don't know. I think that that is a big question. How Trump plays this card is also interesting, because New York City is his hometown. It's always been considered a place where he's tried to court New Yorkers. It's the center of industry, Wall Street. Does him doing something like that create a huge backlash, and does he care even? I think there are a lot of questions about that, and politically, I think it's unclear who it would benefit in the mayoral race.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, your calls and texts welcome on the New York City mayoral race, and also Congressman Jerry Nadler not running for reelection. We'll get to that, what that means, and who might succeed him. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text, or on Jim Walden dropping out of the mayoral race. Mayor Adams in Florida, for some mysterious reason, yesterday, Zohran Mamdani softening his language on a few things, including Kathy Hochul, Adams and the Legionnaires disease prevention failure, charter schools as a possible issue in the mayoral race, which Liz is reporting on now, and maybe more.

We'll see how much we can get to and what you want to get to in our regular Wednesday visit from our political reporter Elizabeth Kim on the mayoral race, plus our Albany reporter, Jon Campbell, joining in today on Hochul and Nadler angles. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Jon, here's a text. Listener writes, "Please focus on the brilliant parts of Mayor Johnson's speech." The clip we played of the mayor of Chicago. "Where are the guns coming from? If you don't solve the root cause," which to this listener is gun trafficking from red states "Problems persist." Does Governor Hochul talk like that?

Jon Campbell: Yes, she is a supporter of gun control. She's had a long journey. At one point when she was in Congress, she was rated well by the NRA. Over time, she has become a supporter of gun control laws. Her and her predecessor governors have talked about how they can only handle within state lines. A big problem has long been guns that are illegal in New York State coming in from other states. Yes, that's an issue, but that's also this broader societal debate over gun control laws, and they do vary greatly from blue states to red states. That's a pretty big nut to crack, so to speak.

Brian Lehrer: Right. I saw an oped or an editorial in one of the conservative publications that said, the way to solve crime in New York or Chicago is not to take away our constitutional rights, meaning Second Amendment gun rights, but, of course, that doesn't mean nothing can be done under the Constitution about guns when there are so many illegal guns flooding into New York, into Chicago, et cetera. That's a debate that continues to go on and that the Democratic Party largely in recent years has been shying more away from.

Liz, next topic. The mayoral race now has one less candidate as of yesterday, Independent Jim Walden, not that well known, but he played a role this summer in launching the idea that candidates opposed to Mamdani should eventually consolidate around one. Liz, I guess he's being true to his word, right?

Elizabeth Kim: That's right, Brian. He was the one that proposed that pact, I would call it, during the summer. He said that the anti-Mamdani candidates should unify in September around one candidate. I think what him dropping out does is it now puts Adams in the hot seat, because he's already been asked about whether he plans to stay in the race.

This morning he did a round of television interviews, and I saw on social media that he slipped the question of whether he would drop out. He evaded answering it, and he basically said, "When I have an announcement, I will make it." That was a very interesting answer for him because he has steadfastly, until then, said that he is not dropping out. Then, of course, as you said earlier, he did have this rather strange visit to Florida yesterday.

Brian Lehrer: You want to go there?

Elizabeth Kim: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Of course, when you say rather strange visit to Florida, which City Hall says was for personal reasons, I think right away, Mar-a-Lago? For all the reporting that there has been-- Well, we had a Cuomo this summer, you and I talked about this, we played the clip, telling a fundraiser in the Hamptons that he thought Adams would drop out by mid-September, and also that President Trump would help get Republicans to vote for Cuomo, not for Republican Curtis Sliwa, maybe by appointing Sliwa to something in the Trump administration, was some of the speculation around that. Maybe he's going to appoint Adams to the Trump administration and get a rival to Cuomo out of the race that way. Of course, that's speculation.

Elizabeth Kim: It does beg the question whether Cuomo did have some kind of insider knowledge. Why was Mayor Adams in Florida and why was it strange? Well, for one thing, I think anytime a sitting mayor takes what was described as a personal trip outside of the city, it's a little strange. Consider the timing. He's taking this trip right after the West Indian Day parade, which is considered the formal kickoff to the two-month sprint to the mayoral election in November.

Instead of doing what he's normally been doing, which is holding a lot of pressers, perhaps doing a campaign event here or there, he decides to just spend the entire day in Florida and really have no reason for it. We were told that it was not involving fundraising. His campaign spokesperson told us that he was celebrating his 65th birthday. During a television interview this morning, he said that he had talked to "some political figures."

Again, like you suggested, Brian, the burning question here is, did he meet with anyone in the Trump administration, and is there any conversation between him and Trump to get Adams to drop out of the race and perhaps give him some kind of carrot that would be a role in the Trump administration?

Brian Lehrer: Walter in Butler, New Jersey, on Trump deploying the National Guard to cities. Walter, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Walter: Okay. Yes, hi. I just wanted to say that I support it, if it's needed, that the two parties should work together to fight crime. I just say it shouldn't be blocked just because it's Trump doing the move.

Brian Lehrer: Well, how do you respond to these texts from other listeners, Walter? One writes, "The military deployed by the President as police is illegal. We shouldn't be asking about its effectiveness." Another one, "This is not business as usual. Please stop pretending Trump's actions are anything other than authoritarian overreach."

Walter: Oh, I'd have to be honest, I'd have to double-check how you say on that stuff.

Brian Lehrer: If you don't have a response, that's okay, but adding that New York City crime stats released by the Adams administration, we assume they're accurate, show a record low number of shootings in the city this year through these first eight months compared to any year since they started keeping that record.

Walter: Well, [unintelligible 00:20:51]

Brian Lehrer: All right, Walter has no response, but, Jon, the idea there-- we engage the national debate a little bit, and this, politically, is what Trump is banking on, that people of presumably goodwill, like Walter, who would not say that they're for authoritarianism, think, well, yes, crime is still a problem in New York, it's still a problem in Chicago, it's still a problem in DC. If Trump wants to add some muscle to help with that problem, and it's effective, there are some crime stats down in Washington since that deployment, then it's a good thing, versus this is item number 379 and his authoritarian takeover of the country.

Jon Campbell: Well, the major point, I think, that needs to be pointed out here is, if he were to deploy the National Guard to New York, Governor Hochul has made very clear that that would be over her objection. She has said that they don't need additional Guard troops in New York City and that she doesn't want them. It wouldn't necessarily be working together how I think Walter put it there, but instead over the objection of Governor Hochul.

That is also what happened in Washington, DC, it was over the objection of the DC mayor, but the rules are different for DC versus the states. The President has the authority to deploy the National Guard in DC, where in the states, the governors are the commanders-in-chief.

Brian Lehrer: Next topic, Liz, here's this Politico newsletter from yesterday. Headline's, Zohran Mamdani's Topsy-Turvy World. That was the subject line that this newsletter went out on as an email newsletter. It says Zohran Mamdani is talking up his relationship with Governor Kathy Hochul, making it clear he has "full confidence" in the NYPD and courting endorsements from the Democratic Party's mainstream leaders.

Politico asks, "Is this the Mamdani we knew during his days in the New York State assembly?" Playbook caught up with Mamdani over the long weekend, and this talks about Mamdani left his defund-the-police support in the rear view mirror. We know that for a long time already he's not campaigning on "defund the police," but, Liz, this seems to be yet another step in saying that he has full confidence in the NYPD, and also saying that they need to do something about the declining force on the NYPD, do something about people leaving. He's taking another step here, right?

Elizabeth Kim: That's right. I don't know that we can expect him to be-- he is no longer just the Queen's assembly member. He is the Democratic mayoral nominee. Since he won that primary in a very commanding fashion, he has made this shift to fully own that role by trying to become this sort of consensus candidate. The thing he's doing with policing is interesting, and I think you can call it shrewd, because to many observers, what I've heard is what he needs now to sort of win the full confidence of party leaders like Kathy Hochul, like Senator Chuck Schumer, like Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, and also just to New Yorkers, to voters as well, is to prove that he can govern.

Policing is an issue in which candidates can show how they govern, because effectively, if he does become mayor, he would become the leader of the largest police force in the country. Of course, he is no longer the Queen's assembly member who was an activist and a very harsh critic of the NYPD and its aggressive policing tactics. He now needs to own, take ownership of the agency.

You already see him doing that by talking up the problems about attrition, by talking about the important role that the NYPD plays in New York City, and by also being open to considering to keeping current Commissioner Jessica Tisch on as commissioner. She's very popular with the business community. She is not in the mold of a reformer that you might expect a more left-leaning Democrat to appoint, but simply by saying he's willing to consider her, I think that does send a message.

Brian Lehrer: Jon, Mamdani used to talk very harshly about Governor Hochul. Now, he said, when he was asked at the West Indian Day parade on Monday, "What if Trump wants to deploy troops to the city?" He said, "I have full confidence in the NYPD in the crisis management system and cure violent groups." Then he said, "The first thing I would do is something that would predate his deployment, which is to be in constant communication with the governor."

Speaking well about Hochul, and then Hochul spoke well about him in this article of her, "I'm having conversations about where the city will go under his leadership. He is the candidate who has reached out to talk to me about these things. I'll just leave it at that." It sounds like a real change from a few months ago or a few years ago, Hochul talking about Mamdani, Mamdani talking about Hochul.

Jon Campbell: Yes, there's no doubt that there's been a change in tone on a lot of things. As a reporter in Albany for a long time, the reporters came to know Zohran Mamdani when he was first elected and first in Albany in the early 2000s. He was the firebrand at every left-leaning press conference, rally, anything that was going on in the Capitol. He was there, and he was very aggressive in his stance on Israel and many other issues that he has moderated on as he's tried to represent the entire city rather than, as Liz said, just a sliver of Queens.

This is among them, too. He is courting the Democratic establishment's endorsements since the primary. He has been courting them since the primary. That includes Hakeem Jeffries, the House minority leader. That includes Chuck Schumer. That includes Governor Hochul. So far, none of them have took the leap and endorsed him. That said, Governor Hochul has been saying nice things about him. He's been saying nice things about her. They seem to be moving in that general direction, but there's a question of, will Governor Hochul make the endorsement without Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer? That's kind of the thing that we're going to be seeing in the coming days and weeks here, whether they'll all hold hands and take that leap together.

Brian Lehrer: One listener texts, "Mamdani is going to need to pivot hard to more realistic policies over the next two months or Cuomo will start gaining traction. Even a more centrist Mamdani is way, way better for New York City than a return of King Andrew," says that listener. Another one texts, oh, look at this one. "Liz Kim is just plain wonderful. I always look forward to her Wednesday segments."

Jon Campbell: [unintelligible 00:29:03]

Brian Lehrer: I could have texted [unintelligible 00:29:04]

Elizabeth Kim: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: One more on this National Guard question. Joe, on Staten Island, you're on WNNYC. Hi, Joe.

Joe: Hi, everybody. What bothers me about this whole idea that Trump is going to place Guard in different cities is that it cements further in people's minds that the only answer to crime is police, whether it's federal or local or the Guard. If Trump were to say, "Hey, I'm going to stop crime in your city, here are cradle-to-grave social services, I'm paying for them," I think that would be a better response. I don't understand why people aren't looking for that kind of response instead.

Brian Lehrer: Joe, thank you. Is Cuomo talking like that at all? Because that's a lot of what Mamdani says and a lot of what progressives say, police are important to fighting crime, but we need to address the root causes of crime. There need to be better social services, there need to be better anti-poverty efforts, all of those things. So far, I think what we've heard from Cuomo is add more police, and that's the way he's trying to distinguish himself from Mamdani, or am I missing something?

Elizabeth Kim: No, I think that's right, Brian. Cuomo has really come out as the law and order candidates, very similar in the mold of Eric Adams. I think it is a fair question, though, to ask whether Mamdani isn't talking enough about social services, particularly him being a left-leaning candidate. In that Politico quote, you did read something where he talked about violence interrupters. That is an important program that progressive Democrats have wanted to expand under Adams and which has seen some cuts in funding, but you do wonder, perhaps, should Mamdani be talking up more about making the social safety net larger and addressing what Mayor Adams always called the root causes of crime?

Brian Lehrer: I read one dollop of praise for you, Liz, so now I'm going to read a critique. A listener writes, "The Democratic base does not like Chuck Schumer or Jeffries. Elizabeth Kim still reports like they matter to New Yorkers." What would you say to that? Because you did say a minute ago that Mamdani is hoping to get the endorsement still of Jeffries and Schumer, Kathy Hochul. Maybe those endorsements don't matter.

Elizabeth Kim: Well, this is what I would say, and I have a couple of points to make about that. To the extent that Eric Adams and Andrew Cuomo are trying to make Mamdani seem like a very radical candidate, the endorsement of the establishment would help "normalize" a Mamdani for voters who might be a little fearful, a little skeptical. The second point is the business community. I have heard that the business community is very much waiting to see whether the establishment comes around Mamdani, and that would make them feel more comfortable.

Whether as a voter you care about the city's business community or not, to a mayor, I think they are integral to whether or not he can govern effectively as mayor. Those are the-- Oh, the third point I would make is, and I've said this before, I think that one of the things that would happen if a Hakeem Jeffries and a Chuck Schumer came around to endorsing Mamdani is it would also be viewed as a repudiation of Andrew Cuomo, and it would make his path to City Hall that much more difficult.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute. Oh, Jon, you want to add something? Go ahead.

Jon Campbell: Well, I was just going to say, looking at it from Zohran Mamdani's perspective is one thing, but also from the perspective of Schumer and Jeffries, there are national implications. If they endorse Mamdani, then Republican candidates all across the country will try to use Mamdani as that foil and say, "Look, the Democrats support this guy, and he's radical, he's extreme," et cetera, and they'll try to use that in their races, too.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute with our New York City political reporter, Elizabeth Kim, and our Albany reporter, Jon Campbell, who is also on. One of the things we'll talk about when we come back, the significance of Congressman Jerrold Nadler of Manhattan, who, by the way, used to oppose Mamdani before he supported him, now saying he will not run for reelection next year to help turn the Democratic Party over to the next generation of its leaders. Stay with us.

Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we continue with our Liz Kim and Jon Campbell on the New York City mayoral race. Liz joins us every Wednesday through the election. Jon joins us on an as-needed basis with his reporting, and he is needed a lot, for example, to answer the question today, because he wrote an article about this for Gothamist and reported it on the station, why is Jerry Adler not running for re-election to Congress from his Manhattan district, Jon?

Jon Campbell: Well, he says it's time for "generational change." He's 78 years old. He's been in elected office since 1976. He's been in Congress since 1992, and he says it's time for a new generation. He announced his decision in an interview with the New York Times, and he actually cited the Joe Biden situation from 2024 as eye-opening for the need for that change.

Yes, he says he's going to be stepping aside at the end of his current term, which goes through the end of next year, and that is going to set up just a Democratic free-for-all to replace him in a district that is really highly coveted. It's all of Midtown, it's the Upper West Side, it's the Upper East Side. It's a really coveted district.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, I'm going to throw out another question for you here as a follow up. Jon, you can chime in, Liz, you can chime in if you have an opinion., but listeners, do you believe the generational change argument from the base of the Democratic Party that talks about a generational change? Now Nadler has cited it in his announcement that he won't run for reelection after more than 30 years in Congress. They're not calling for Bernie Sanders to give up his seat. This could be more, or could this be more about the activist base pushing to remove politicians they see as too centrist?

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but is that more what it's about than age? The Republican base is pushing to remove Republicans who they don't see as MAGA enough, and maybe the Democratic base is moving to remove, or pushing to remove Democrats who they don't see as progressive enough. Age is just an artifact here, stand in. I've seen reporting anyway, I haven't counted heads, but I've seen reporting that the center left split in the Democratic Party tends to run more by age than it does in the Republican Party, whether you're more MAGA or more centrist in the GOP.

Listeners, do you believe the generational change argument from the Democratic left? Let me focus this, and screeners, let's clear the board from everybody who was calling on the previous angles that we've discussed. We're done with the National Guard and some of the other things. Listeners, if you are one of those who are calling for generational change, you're going to get first priority, generational change in the Democratic Party. Is it really about age or is it about trying to move the Democratic Party more toward your views? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text. Liz, you want to weigh in on that?

Elizabeth Kim: I will say that the thing that I thought about when I read about Nadler mentioning Biden, because he didn't want to become like a Biden, I thought about his debate performance. Do you remember when he was running for reelection in that seat? It was contested between him and Carolyn Maloney because of the redrawn congressional lines. He had a terrible debate performance, in which people did question whether he was too old. I wondered whether for him it was, in many ways, reading the writing on the wall. There have already been questions about his acuity and his sharpness. That was what came to my mind when I saw his statement and Biden.

Brian Lehrer: I think that's a fair thing to say. I've watched Jerrold Nadler over the years not speak as fluidly as he used to speak. Sorry. He's more hesitant now. He's looking for his words more, that kind of thing. That, of course, is what we saw in such an extreme way with Joe Biden in that debate. It still begs the question for me, is this about an individual who can't cut it anymore, or is this really about age? Because there are people Nadler's age who haven't had that decline.

Again, the base isn't calling for Bernie Sanders to move on and let somebody else who's younger from Vermont take that seat. Again, not that there's anything wrong if this is about politics or about individual decline as opposed to generational change, but I think the question is reasonable to ask.

Elizabeth Kim: After the mayoral primary, and Mamdani being this 33-year-old unknown who was able to captivate younger voters, people who had never voted before, I think that does raise a legitimate question about whether Democrats should have younger members representing them.

Brian Lehrer: Jon, you want to add.

Jon Campbell: Yes, I would just say a couple of things. One, I think the election results over the last 30 years have shown that Jerry Nadler has been and still is very well liked within his district, and his district has changed a lot over the years, most recently, in the most recent Congressional redistricting. He's very well liked within that district. That district is heavily Democratic, but there are a lot of wealthy Democrats in that district. There's a lot of business types, finance types in Midtown, in the Upper East Side, Upper West Side, and it is not necessarily a far left district in the generational change that we've seen now.

Andrew Cuomo ran very competitively with Zohran Mamdani in this district. In fact, it seems that he won on the first ballot and perhaps lost after the ranked-choice voting. This is a district that is heavily, heavily Democratic, but perhaps not as far left as Zohran Mamdani is. I think that the argument about generational change versus just trying to push the party toward your viewpoints is certainly a valid one. I'm not sure it quite applies in this district because Nadler has performed so well there over the years, including recently against Carolyn Malone.

Elizabeth Kim: Well, Brian, I took a look at the mayoral map, primary map this morning. The Upper West Side and the Upper East Side were won by Andrew Cuomo. Andrew Cuomo has said he has no interest in running for this seat, but you can make the argument that he is actually very well positioned to win this seat. It's interesting, I think when Nadler won that seat in '92, the complexion of this district was different, even the lines of this district were different when he won.

I think Jon is right. I think that district is not the same as it was. He has the advantage of an incumbent so that he can continue to win that seat, but I would argue that that seat now would probably-- I think it would be difficult for someone as left as Nadler has been to win a seat like that.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, that's interesting. That is interesting. It goes against-

Elizabeth Kim: Just look at the primary. Look at how voters voted in the primary, they-

Brian Lehrer: In the mayoral primary. Although, I thought one of the reasons that Nadler might be stepping down is that there was talk in the progressive wing of the party of primarying him. Running against Carolyn Maloney is one thing. She's also older. I remember Jerrold Nadler when he was a very forceful speaker. The reason they shunted him aside in the impeachment hearings, even though he was chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, certainly by the second impeachment, and let people like Adam Schiff more take the spotlight, is because Nadler had declined.

Elizabeth Kim: I don't think it was-- I agree with Jon, and Jon chime in, but I thought immediately after the primary, when people talked about left wing challengers, the name that came up a lot was a person like Dan Goldman.

Brian Lehrer: To primary him because he's too centrist.

Elizabeth Kim: Yes.

Jon Campbell: I'm sorry. Jerry Nadler did have a primary challenger before he dropped out of the race. It's a 26-year-old nonprofit founder by the name of Liam Elkind, but I don't know that it was a particularly competitive challenge. Now that Nadler's out of this race, like I said, it's going to be a free for all. There are potential candidates that are already towing around, trying to gauge support, and there are others who certainly will be doing the same in the coming days and weeks.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a couple of phone calls on this. Erin in Brooklyn in Hakeem Jeffries' district, you're on WNYC. Hi, Erin.

Erin: Hi, Brian. It's great to talk to you.

Brian Lehrer: And to you. What you got?

Erin: Well, so I have been in Hakeem Jeffries' district in Clinton Hill section of the district for about 20 years. He's very well liked, generally appreciated his leadership, but over the last few years, I do think it is time for a change. I'm really disappointed in the fact that as we approach the anniversary of October 7th with him being one of the most endorsed candidates by AIPAC and the House minority leader, that he's had nothing to say on the war in Gaza, given how much energy there is in the district about it. I understand the demographics of the district are split, but between that and the constitutional crisis we're facing, I would have expected more to leadership and just more momentum.

Brian Lehrer: That's to say, it is more about his views and about his leadership against Trump than it is about his age per se for you, Erin, Correct?

Erin: Absolutely. Yes, I think he's barely 50. It's not that he's too old, yes, it's his lack of leadership and his lack of just what I feel is alignment with my views.

Brian Lehrer: Erin, thank you very much. Jerry in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jerry.

Jerry: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I'm a 74-year-old, in that age that bracket represents, but many of my age peers were strong supporters of Mamdani, and we were inspired by the courage and authenticity that our generation of politicians seem to have lost. They were so strategic, and especially when Biden dropped out. The level of minute strategy with which they imagined they were manipulating everybody, it lost us. We don't want that kind of strategy, and it doesn't make one proud to be a Democrat any longer. [unintelligible 00:46:53] real courage and conviction.

Brian Lehrer: Is it about age or is about courage and conviction in these times?

Jerry: I think it's about courage and conviction in these times. It makes me really mad when I hear pundits say, "Oh, the young people, the young people are just excited about having a young charismatic person." That's not it at all. I can mention dozens and dozens of 70-somethings who are really excited.

Brian Lehrer: Do you think Bernie Sanders should give up his seat to a younger Vermont Democrat?

Jerry: No, no. He's got that courage and conviction, and as long as he can stand there and support younger people and speaks the truth, of course he shouldn't.

Brian Lehrer: Jerry, thank you very much. That's where a lot of our callers are.

Elizabeth Kim: Brian, Mamdani is actually going to be at an event with Bernie Sanders. Bernie Sanders put out a press release today saying that he's going to bring his Fight the Oligarchy tour to New York City and he's going to be joined by Mamdani.

Brian Lehrer: Of course, AOC, who also represents generational change, the way many people describe it, has been on this tour. Sanders with her, she with him on the No Kings tour all over the country. One more, Scott at Mount Vernon, taken him because he might think it is more about age. Scott, do I have you right? Hi, welcome to WNYC.

Scott: Hi, Brian. It's not so much as it's a question of age as, if you've ever seen the hearings when they're talking about the Internet or technology, you have a group of people and it often skews elderly that have no idea even what it is. You have people making decisions that are going to affect us 20, 30, 40 years out who will not be here then. I think you need a mixture of both young and old people, or old people who understand how Washington works. Otherwise, it's all lost.

Brian Lehrer: Nice point. Thank you very much. Nadler endorsed Mamdani after the primary, even though on this show, during the primary campaign, when he did not endorse Mamdani, he opposed Mamdani, I'm going to play this clip, it was largely because of his positions on Israel and because of Mamdani's age. Listen to Jerrold Nadler on this show before the primary.

Jerrold Nadler: Well, I couldn't support Zohran Mamdani for a number of reasons. Number one, his criticism of Israel for committing genocide, which I think is wrong. His support, well before this war, for the Boycott, Divestment and sanctions campaign against Israel, which is really a campaign against Israel's existence. That's one thing.

Secondly, he's 33 years old and has never run anything. It's one thing to have wonderful opinions, or not, but to run the city of New York, you have to have executive experience. He's not run anything, and he has no experience with executive leadership at all. I don't see how he could be mayor. When I was 33 years old, I was, I think, a very good state assemblyman. I would not have been qualified to be mayor.

Brian Lehrer: Ouch. Congressman Nadler on the show before the primary. By the way, in a coalition of the experienced, he was endorsing Scott Stringer in the Democratic primary for mayor, but, Jon, oh my goodness, then he turned around the day after the primary and endorsed Mamdani. Never mind what he said there about Israel or what he said about age. Now he's retiring himself to turn over to a new generation.

Jon Campbell: Well, on the Israel point, I thought Congressman Nadler's comments in the New York Times, which is where he announced his decision and has done his one big interview as he announced his decision, he was critical of Israel in that, which was very surprising because he's been very, very strong on Israel's existence over time. A direct quote from the Times is, "I don't know what to say at this point. I can't defend what Israel is doing," and that's in reference to Benjamin Netanyahu and how they're prosecuting the war in Gaza right now. There has been a shift from Nadler-

Brian Lehrer: There's been plenty of reporting on how Israel, with what they're doing in Gaza, is losing many American Jews.

Jon Campbell: Yes, and Democrats in particular, which was part of Nadler's point. Not only a shift on Mamdani, but also a shift on Israel as well from Jerry Nadler. I think that's been very interesting to see, but yes, it is really jarring to hear that clip, which was from before the primary, juxtapose it with the fact that now he is supporting Mamdani and came out immediately after the primary and supported Mamdani.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, one correction from a listener to something that I said. It's fair. I think I call Bernie Sanders a Democrat. Obviously, he ran for the Democratic presidential nomination, but he is an independent from Vermont. Just very briefly, Liz, because we're over time, because there's been so much that's, I think, been interesting to talk about, you have new reporting on charter schools as an issue or potential issue in the race. Want to give us a short version? Then I'll refer everybody to your article on Gothamist.

Elizabeth Kim: Sure. This is interesting because, as we've talked about, Brian, education has not been front and center in the race, but now we've learned that charter schools, led by Success Academy, which is one of the most prominent charter networks in the city, they're planning to stage a rally. It's going to be a march across the Brooklyn Bridge this month. Although they've made no specific mention of any of the candidates, it's hard not to read this as really a warning shot to Zohran Mamdani.

Now, Mamdani, of the candidates, has been the one who is the most critical of charters and has opposed the expansion of charters. Andrew Cuomo recently had a press conference in which he said that he would be open to closing underperforming public schools and letting the community decide what kind of school they want to replace it, meaning that he's going to basically-- it's an opening for charters.

This is a very interesting moment in the race to, perhaps, reviving this old debate. This debate over charters being located in public schools, that was something that happened a lot during the Bill de Blasio era, but it's really been muted. Charter schools have had steady or plateauing enrollment. I think they're at a very precarious moment, especially now that federal funding for public education is being cut. They need to fight for a smaller pie. Let's see how this shapes the race.

Brian Lehrer: Much more to come on that in our 30 Issues in 30 Days election series, which will begin Monday, September 22nd. We will definitely take a close look at the mayoral candidates and also the New Jersey gubernatorial candidates on education issues. That certainly will include charter schools. WNYC New York City political reporter Elizabeth Kim. You can read her reporting on our local news website, Gothamist, as well as hear it on the Radio, and our Albany reporter, Jon Campbell, same thing, Gothamist and here on the Radio. We'll keep talking to Liz every Wednesday through the election about the mayoral race. Thanks both of you for coming on.

Elizabeth Kim: Thanks, Brian.

Jon Campbell: Thank you, Brian.

 

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