Title: City Politics: Cuomo vs Adams; AOC's Town Hall & More

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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. On today's show, the abortion rights historian Mary Ziegler on the Trump position in the mifepristone case. That's making news. Did you hear about that? It's surprising some people. Mary will put it in the context of her new book on the definition of personhood as what she calls a new civil war over reproduction.

Also, what's really behind the problems at Newark Airport, and what can really be the fix? I hope air traffic controllers and others of you with relevant experience will help us report that story. We'll also talk to a CNN correspondent who's a pilot and flight instructor himself.

Plus, legendary broadcaster Bob Costas today on his life and times in and out of sports. Bob Costas will take your calls. Anything you always wanted to ask Bob Costas but never had him over for dinner, that will be on the table near the end of the show.

We begin today with our weekly visit from our city hall reporter, Elizabeth Kim, covering Mayor Adams and now the mayoral campaign. One development in the last day that might make this complicated race even more unusual. Former Governor Andrew Cuomo says he's launching a new political party. Did you hear that one yet? He calls it the fight and deliver party.

Now this raises the possibility that if Cuomo doesn't win the Democratic primary, he'll be on the November ballot anyway on his independent line along with Eric Adams on his plus the Democratic nominee, plus Republican Curtis Sliwa. Mayor Adams had something to say about that yesterday when asked about Cuomo at his weekly Tuesday news conference.

Mayor Adams: All he's doing is looking at Eric Adams' playbook, you know, and I hope you guys are going to be as critical of him now that he's duplicating what I'm doing, you know? You know, he follows my housing plans. He follows my mental health plans. He follows, you know, I mean, it just seemed like he's just going through the motion.

Is it me? It just seems like he is like, "I'm just going to check the box. I'm going to show up in a Black church and tweet it out and just all of a sudden say this, I' going to do a ChatGPT and find out what's the best housing plan in the country. Oh, Eric Adams is going to take his name off, and I'm going to duplicate it. Oh, I'm going to do a new line like Eric Adams."

Brian Lehrer: With that, Liz Kim is here. Hi, Liz. Happy Wednesday.

Elizabeth Kim: Happy Wednesday, Brian. Didn't we say that this dynamic between Cuomo and Adams was going to get interesting.

Brian Lehrer: You said it when they were trying not to criticize each other originally all that much. But is it that easy to make up a party line and just get yourself on the November ballot? Could you do it? Could I do it?

Elizabeth Kim: If you or I can get 3,750 signatures and turn them in by May 27, yes, you can. You too can run on an independent ballot line of your own making.

Brian Lehrer: It's not that many signatures if you have a paid staff to do that.

Elizabeth Kim: No, and the Times interestingly reported yesterday that they had found some a canvasser that was being paid by the Cuomo campaign up in Harlem to get signatures for his fight and deliver ballot lines. The mayor is seeking two ballot lines. One is called "EndAntiSemitism," and the other is called "Safe&Affordable."

Brian Lehrer: Oh. On the creation of Cuomo's new party, the statement from him said, "This November, in addition to securing the Democratic nomination, my campaign will work to build the largest possible coalition and secure the biggest possible mandate." That said, in addition to securing the Democratic line, and I could read that as an extra line he'll run on if he does get the nomination, because some more conservative voters might like Cuomo, but they'll never fill in the bubble for a Democrat. My question is, is it clear yet that he'll run as an independent on this line if he does not win the Democratic primary?

Elizabeth Kim: I spoke to at least one expert who called it a hedge, a hedge that he doesn't win, that if he doesn't win the Democratic primary, that this still ensures his ability to run in November, but I do not know that it's clear whether he would in fact still decide to run if he doesn't win the Democratic primary. I think that would be a huge blow to someone like himself.

He's been polling with a double-digit lead for several weeks and months. I'm not sure, but I think that this decision does make sense even if he does win the primary and is guaranteed a line as a Democrat because he is competing for the same voters that Adams is seeking. He's pretty much trying to take Adams's base, and these are conservative Democrats and moderate Republicans. I think it makes sense for him to try to find another way, another line in which he can appeal to those voters who might not see themselves as Democrats.

Brian Lehrer: Right, and as a matter of political analysis, I can definitely see why he did this. Imagine a fall election with a progressive Democrat, say, Brad Lander or Zohran Mamdani, plus Republican Curtis Sliwa and Eric Adams in the middle. I imagine there will be voters who find the Democrat, whoever it is, too far to the left, Sliwa too MAGA, too far to the right, but they don't like Eric Adams, who's very unpopular. For whatever reason, they don't like him. Suddenly, they have Cuomo as another option in that center lane, and I can see why he sees a path for himself in the way I just laid out. Do you think his reasoning is something like that?

Elizabeth Kim: I do think so, and I think that, in a way, the mayor is very tarnished by the corruption indictment, which has since, of course, we know has been dismissed, but also the other scandals that have surrounded his administration. At the same time, he is a voracious campaigner. I think in some ways it is a little bit of credit to Adams as being a very smart retail politician that he's not going to give up an inch, and he's not going to take any chances.

I mean, if this becomes a contest where he is trying to own that centrist Democrat lane, he doesn't want to let Eric Adams-- He wants to fight Eric Adams. You're seeing that now because the rhetoric between the two of them is starting to heat up.

Brian Lehrer: You heard Mayor Adams' reaction and attack on Cuomo in the clip. Does he have a point? Is Cuomo following the Adams playbook as the mayor claims? Did he really copy and paste Adams' housing plan or mental health plan, or anything else you might cite?

Elizabeth Kim: They're ideologically aligned. I mean, they're both tough on crime, pro-business, pro-Israel Democrats. I don't think that it should be shocking to the mayor that their policies would be similar. I think for the mayor, that's smart rhetoric campaign. That's a smart campaign attack for him to take is to say, "Oh, Cuomo is stealing from me. Cuomo is just copying me. Why vote for Cuomo when you can have the original is his line of attack lately. I think if you're ideologically similar, you're going to have similar policies. That's not shocking.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, who wants to call in on the prospect of Andrew Cuomo, independent candidate for mayor without the Democratic nomination? Is this speaking to any of you? 212-433-WNYC. Imagine a November election with, let's say, Zohran Mamdani or Brad Lander as the Democrat, plus Eric Adams and Curtis Sliwa. Now, imagine that same scenario plus Andrew Cuomo. Does it change your vote? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

For the moment, this is not for those of you who are in the dream camp. What they call dream don't rank Eric or Andrew for mayor, but those of you who might be inclined to even consider it. 212-433-WNYC or any other comments or questions for our city hall and mayoral campaign reporter, Liz Kim. Also, anyone listening who is at the AOC or Mike Lawler town halls, we're also going to talk about those a little bit. 212-433-WNYC 433-9692 call or text.

Meanwhile, there are other things to talk about. At the mayor's news conference yesterday, he drew attention to the attack on two police officers in Times Square the other day. That led to a few political positions by the mayor that might take some sorting out. I watched the news conference. He defended the existence of a gang database, which city council might pass a bill to ban. He defended ICE and their role as a law enforcement agency.

At the same time, Police Commissioner Tisch pointed out that ICE agents showed up at a police precinct where one of the Times Square suspects was being held, and ICE was prohibited from seeing him. Would you start this section, Liz, by explaining briefly what happened in the incident and if the suspects are believed to have acted as part of a gang?

Elizabeth Kim: This is all told to us through police officials, and this is why the mayor convened the press conference with the police commissioner, and she was joined by other members of the top brass. The way that the commissioner tells it is that there was on Friday night, there were two officers. They had witnessed a robbery, and when they were trying to stop it, they said that they were pelted. She says they were pelted with things like scooters, basketballs, and what she called makeshift weapons. She then goes on to say that the police identified these individuals as members of they were called the farm team, or a subset of the Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua.

How do they know this? This assistant chief basically explained that they go by certain gang signs that they use. He said that they use certain emojis when they're posting on social media and that they're very big into posting pictures of themselves with guns. All of which is to say is they were trying to highlight an instance of an attack on two police officers. The two police officers, they say, are okay, but this was an opportunity for both the mayor and the police commissioner to really make a statement that it is not okay to attack police officers, but also to draw attention on this alleged foreign gang that President Trump has talked a lot about when he's trying to justify his immigration crackdown.

It was an interesting intersection of a lot of issues here. Then she went on to mention ICE. Now, with the ICE visit, she didn't specify why they were there. She just said that ICE had visited a certain police precinct. Presumably, it was because wanted perhaps access to someone they were holding, but she didn't specify who or why they were there. What she did say was that the officers at that police precinct followed the protocol, and they did not volunteer any information or give up that individual.

Brian Lehrer: Right. One of the main arguments for sanctuary city policies, people may or may not know, is that without that insulation from immigration agents, immigrant victims of crimes, or witnesses to crimes who are immigrants, won't come forward, and the city will be less safe, not more safe. NYPD Commissioner Tisch said things like this at the news conference. You were just describing it in general terms.

Here are some of the quotes that I wrote down. "The NYPD does not engage in civil immigration enforcement, period. We do not work with ICE or the Department of Homeland Security on civil immigration enforcement, meaning enforcement that results in a deportation hearing, and we do not notify ICE when we make an arrest." Liz, was Tish making that sanctuary city case, or just acknowledging that they follow the law on that because they have to?

Elizabeth Kim: I really think it's the latter, Brian, because I don't know that she, as a police commissioner, really wants to wade into the merits or the politics of the city's immigration protections. I think that that is something that is a space for the mayor to occupy. He has, at several points, said that the reason that these laws are in place is so that we encourage that we don't create this underground world of people who are living in the shadows, who are afraid to seek out help from police, who are afraid to go to hospitals, who are afraid to send their children to schools.

That is the overarching reason that the city has these sanctuary policies. There is an area in which the mayor disagrees with the sanctuary policies, which is, how far do these sanctuary policies restrict cooperation between NYPD and federal immigration officials?

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. I want to take a call from Danny in Massapequa, who calls in sometimes, retired NYPD lieutenant, if I remember your rank correctly, Danny. You don't get to vote in New York City, I presume, but you have an opinion between Cuomo at Adams, right?

Danny: I have an opinion, but I enjoyed the conversation. The insanity that I have to listen to about allegedly gang members, and alleged-- We don't know who these people are. I still have friends who work in that precinct. I work in that precinct for many years. My son worked in that precinct. There are gangs of kids that are running around, and we know they're not resident aliens. There is no question to me that if you throw a basketball in a police officer's head and you're not a citizen of this country, to me, you've just lost your right to be here.

Whatever your due process is at that point, why these kids were allowed to leave, go about their day like nothing happened? To a man who used to walk a beat in Times Square in the '80s, where we had three police officers shot within a 12-month period there, it's unfathomable that a gang of kids, just children, would have the audacity to attack grown men, police officers, and we're worrying about the sanctuary city status of New York City. They don't have these issues in other parts of the country. You arrest-- You throw basketball at a police officer, the least of your concern is your sanctuary policies. It's just insanity beyond words.

As far as Cuomo is concerned, this is the man who passed the Criminal Justice Reform Act, which gave us so many bad things, including the no-bail law, which probably lets these kids right back out, and his famous quote of, "ISIS thugs, we're not cooperating," and he's going to claim the criminal justice mantle. No, I'm sorry, Mr. Cuomo, you lost that right. Eric Adams is imperfect in many ways, but as a former captain of the police department, I really feel like his views have been held back by the law.

New York State has these sanctuary laws. I remember arresting people with numerous different foreign IDs on them. Numerous different things. You knew they were illegal. Seven different benefit cards, but we were required not to say a word, just pass it along and give it back to them. Those are the types of law that are keeping the city insane, as far as I'm concerned. I would go Adams before I go any of these other people.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Danny. Let me ask you one, follow up about the first part of your comment. In your opinion, if I heard you correctly, you said if the people who are-- Oh, he hung up so I can't follow up. I was just going to ask him if he agrees that somebody who's suspected of being a non-resident alien gang member, do they at least need to prove in court that he actually is a gang member before they deport him? Because that's not what the Trump administration is holding up as their standard. Liz, an interesting call and one point of view from somebody who's obviously pro law enforcement, ranking Adams above Cuomo.

Elizabeth Kim: Yes, and I did wonder whether the mayor held that press conference in part because he did want to stoke anger about, perhaps, what the mayor has expressed frustrations about sanctuary city laws. He didn't express it in that moment yesterday. He didn't go that far. He has before, and I was a little surprised that he didn't want to go there. I did wonder whether this press conference was designed to make people like Danny, especially people who have worked in law enforcement or people who are just pro police, feel outraged that here we have an incident of people who are believed to be part of a gang.

Again, we say believed to be or allegedly because this is still a police narrative. If we had the attorney or if we had the individuals themselves, perhaps they have a different story to tell. There has been some video footage released of it, but I don't believe they've released everything yet. Although the police commissioner did say that they were going to release it.

Brian Lehrer: What's the gang database issue on which the mayor and city council seem to disagree?

Elizabeth Kim: This is a database. This issue came up because the mayor was asked at one point, what tools does the city have to fight these gangs? He said it's the gang database, and it is something that the city council currently is weighing a bill which would abolish the gang database. Now, this has been a running issue for many years in New York City. Criminal justice reform advocates have spent years trying to get the NYPD to stop using the database.

They argue that the vast majority, and one number I saw was 99% of people in this database are Latino and Black. They say that there aren't always good justifications for why they are in the database. They also point out that there is a transparency issue. Only suspects under 18 are notified that they are in this database.

On the flip side, you know, police have said that this database is, in fact, like the mayor says, a very valuable tool. They said they have over 500 gangs that are actively identified. They have over 1,300 alleged members that are in this database. This is a running battle between the mayor and it's also a way for him to argue that we have this more left-leaning council that has handcuffed the police in their ability to arrest gang members and to make the city safe.

Brian Lehrer: You know what's interesting to me about Adams, in the last week, he gave his budget address in which he sounded more like a Democrat [chuckles] than I think at any other time I've ever heard him. He was proposing expansion of all these social programs.

I thought, "Oh, that must be related to the campaign," because there are all these other issues in addition to crime, which is a real issue in the city, and he really wanted to come out at that budget address and really sound like a Democrat in the more mainstream, conventional sense, but there he was back in his weekly news conference yesterday doing law enforcement, law enforcement, law enforcement like he's done the last four years. Can you put those two things together?

Elizabeth Kim: That essentially reflects the mayor's base. It's a coalition of working-class New Yorkers that the mayor says are as concerned with affordability as they are public safety. That's why the mayor seems at times to dance between those two issues. I also did wonder, though, whether the reason that the mayor didn't really go back on his attack of sanctuary cities is I do wonder if he has to toe the line more carefully about when it comes to appearing to be too pro Trump because that is something that will hurt him in an election.

I did wonder, we heard him talk about ICE in a way that said that, "We have to respect ICE because they're not a criminal organization." He also said, "But the city doesn't participate in immigration enforcement." I feel like he's always trying to balance, balance it out. I think it was interesting there were moments earlier, often before he got his case dismissed, where you heard him say a lot more positive things about Trump, but I think we're starting to hear that a little less and less.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a question from a listener in a text. It says, "Do you anticipate the mayoral candidate's history of support for Palestine or Israel becoming a top issue in this election?" I'll tell the listeners, since I watched the news conference yesterday, your question to the mayor this week was about any differences between him and Cuomo on anti-Semitism, is the way you framed it, which they both talk about. Adams even set up that independent line called-- What is it? The fight anti-Semitism line?

Elizabeth Kim: Yes, "EndAntiSemitism."

Brian Lehrer: Did the mayor try to draw any distinctions?

Elizabeth Kim: To answer the caller's question, most certainly it is. These two candidates, Cuomo and Adams, are trying to make this an issue. You see that [chuckles] because the mayor created an independent ballot line called "EndAntiSemitism." That speaks to the fact that they are trying to win a set of both conservative Jewish voters and also Orthodox voters.

The reason why I put that question to the mayor and I didn't really feel like he answered it really satisfactorily is because Cuomo is trying to take away this base from the mayor and I was interested in seeing how he might differentiate his position and his policies on "fighting anti-Semitism" from the former governor. he didn't really go there. He tried to suggest that the former governor is not pro-Israel, which is blatantly untrue.

Brian Lehrer: Blatantly untrue to the point where didn't Cuomo recently sign on to be part of Netanyahu's defense team in this international court of justice case accusing Netanyahu of war crimes?

Elizabeth Kim: Right. And if that's not pro-Israel, I don't know what is.

Brian Lehrer: At least pro Netanyahu.

Elizabeth Kim: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: All right. We're going to take a break, and then we're going to start to talk about those two town halls, the one that AOC held and the one that Republican Congressman Mike Lawler held north of the city, actually held two in the last couple of weeks. Stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC with our weekly Wednesday appearance from our city hall reporter, Liz Kim, who's covering Mayor Adams and also now the mayoral campaign. 212-433-WNYC if you want to call in. Now, specifically, we'll invite people who may have been at either of these town halls, the one that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez held recently or one of the ones that Congressman Mike Lawler held recently, 212-433-9692. On the AOC one, we'll play a clip or two of your coverage of that, but as it relates to your coverage of the mayoral race, I see Brad Lander showed up. How did that go?

Elizabeth Kim: He did show up. He showed up after the event had already started so it was pretty easy to notice him walking in. He also pointedly took a seat in one of the first few aisles. It's no secret that his campaign has been struggling to find this breakout moment, and that he would really probably benefit from an endorsement from AOC.

I spoke to him after the event, and he made no secret of it. He would totally welcome an endorsement from her. The two do know each other. In 2021, AOC endorsed him when he ran for comptroller. I thought it was very interesting that he chose to come to that event. He didn't get to talk to AOC, but I think he's doing a bit of signaling to her that he needs her for this race.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a clip. It's a one-minute clip of two different voters with you in this, too, talking to them. These two voters appear undecided.

Voter 1: I know more about the people I don't want to vote for. Number one would be the mayor presently, and that's Eric Adams. I think he's finished, unfortunately, but he's still a politician, so he's still out there. Again, another politician who I would never endorse again is Cuomo. Those two candidates are out.

Brian Lehrer: All right, that was one voter. Let's keep going with a couple more.

Voter 2: Adams and Cuomo are out.

Voter 3: I'm with him. Adams and Cuomo are out. Yes, definitely, but Adams is not running in this primary.

Voter 2: That's right.

Voter 3: He's going as an independent now. I mean, he could potentially disrupt things. He could disrupt things and I don't know what's happening on the Republican side.

Voter 2: I don't really think the Republicans have a chance. I do know some of the Democrats, but I'm blanking right now in terms of which one I really favor.

Elizabeth Kim: Does it matter to you whether the congresswoman endorses someone in the race? Would her opinion or would her backing of a candidate matter

Voter 2: In this case, it might, since I'm less familiar with the-- I think once it's revealed who the candidates are, I'll be able to decide without-- Even though I respect Alexandria's opinion more than anyone else on the air.

Brian Lehrer: Liz, the congresswoman has not endorsed, right?

Elizabeth Kim: No, and there's no certainty that she will, but she did endorse in 2021. I think there is growing pressure on her to weigh-in in this race. Her national popularity is on the rise. She's attracting thousands of people at these anti-Trump rallies that she's been holding with Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders around the country. She's coming off a record fundraising cycle. She was able to raise nearly $10 million in three months.

People are talking about her as a potential presidential candidate, but I think people in New York City, progressives in New York City, people in her district, which is very left-leaning, as you could tell from those voters who said absolutely no to Adams and Cuomo. I think they're going to start to maybe place pressure on asking her to get involved in the race because they see this as a very important race between progressives and these two moderates.

Brian Lehrer: A lot of people may be wondering, why doesn't she just endorse Zohran Mamdani? They're both DSA. They probably have the closest match on their positions down the line. Correct me if you think that's wrong. What would you say to a listener who's wondering that?

Elizabeth Kim: Because she's very, very careful about how she uses her political capital. Even when she endorsed Maya Wiley in 2021, as she did it, I think it was about a week before early voting began. She tends to wait. The reason she waits is because, as we saw in 2021, there were campaigns that imploded, Scott Stringer, Diane Morales. It makes sense for her to wait because she's also watching to see the strengths of these campaigns and how they perform.

It also gives someone like a Brad Lander, who she previously endorsed and who she has praised for his progressive track record, it gives him some time to have a breakout moment, to perhaps do better in the polls. I think it will likely be between him and Zohran Mamdani.

Brian Lehrer: Do I glean correctly from your reporting, Liz, that you got a sense by walking around talking to people at this AOC town hall, and there were 1,500 people there, which is incredibly--

Elizabeth Kim: Oh, no, it was just 400.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, 400.

Elizabeth Kim: That is the largest. One of the reasons I went to the town hall is I was curious on how her popularity is playing out in her own district. Would there be the same kind of outpouring as there have been at these other events she's been doing across the country? Does it match? Does the enthusiasm match? Because sometimes there is resentment against a congressperson who spends too much time away from their district cultivating a national profile, but in this case, she said she had around over 400 people there. She said at the event that this was her largest town hall ever.

Brian Lehrer: People weren't there to challenge her. Some people have been showing up to Republican congress members' town halls.

Elizabeth Kim: There was one protester, and it was a ceasefire activist who notably stood up and shouted at her for several minutes and admonished her for not speaking out more about the war in Gaza.

Brian Lehrer: The challenge that AOC got at her town hall was from the left. Where I was going with my original question was I think you got the sense, if I read your reporting right, that many voters who were engaged enough to show up to an AOC town hall are not engaged yet in this mayoral race.

[00:32:32] Elizabeth Kim: Yes, and that's another reason I went to the town hall, because a town hall like this is where you will find a likely voter. These are people who are very civically engaged. You can tell because they showed up on a Friday night to talk to a congresswoman, but it was very surprising. Not everyone wanted to talk to me on the record, but a lot of people just shrugged or shook their heads when I asked them, what do you think about the mayoral race?

I think that says a lot. It says that there are undecided voters out there, and it seems like we have less than 50 days left, which doesn't seem like a lot of time to the campaigns, but I think there are still a lot of educated, high information voters who are just not tuned in right now. It might be in part because they are very tuned into national politics in this moment. They came to this town hall because they wanted to hear their congressperson talk about Trump.

Brian Lehrer: Siena in Park Slope is frustrated about something that would be the case in the November mayoral election. Sienna, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Siena: Hi, can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: I can hear you.

Siena: Great, first-time caller. Thank you for everything that you do for the city, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Siena: I'm really frustrated that Adams and Cuomo are like circumventing the voters' desire for ranked choice voting by creating these extra ballot lines so that they will definitely be in the November primary. Voters voted to have ranked choice voting, which is a really more representative electoral system, but we only have it in the primaries. By guaranteeing themselves a position on the ballot in November, it just feels like what is the point even? It feels like they're circumventing that. I'm frustrated with many things about the two of them.

Brian Lehrer: We've had other callers who have been frustrated with ranked choice voting and how it's supposed to whittle down the field and say, "Why don't we just have an open primary and let the top two vote getters square off in November and just let anybody in?" Other people might say, "Let a thousand flowers bloom in a democracy and put themselves on the ballot in November. What would you say to that, Siena?

Siena: At this point, I feel like some kind of open ranks choice voting might be the way to go or having the-- I guess that would be the same. [crosstalk].

Brian Lehrer: Lots of candidates, but with a ranked choice, which again, we've talked about this before, but listeners, in case you don't know, the primary is ranked choice, the general election is not. With this scenario that's shaping up, somebody could be elected mayor, Liz, with 23% of the vote if there are five candidates and the other ones get 19%.

Elizabeth Kim: That's right, Brian. The point I would make to Siena is that it's not just Cuomo and Adams who are doing this. It's the Working Families Party, this progressive third party who is also preparing to run their own ballot line in November.

Brian Lehrer: If Cuomo gets the nomination.

Elizabeth Kim: Yes. It's not just about Cuomo and Adams. I think that one of the larger reasons for instituting ranked choice was to avoid a very costly runoff. It does succeed in doing that, but it doesn't prevent, like Sienna pointed out, the candidates who do not prevail from running again in November.

Brian Lehrer: The AOC town hall was also newsworthy for how she talked back to border czar Tom Homan. We're going to play that clip. As background for this, he had implied that he might try to have AOC prosecuted for something.

Elizabeth Kim: Yes, she said that he was going to refer her to the DOJ. I guess you can interpret it that way.

Brian Lehrer: Department of Justice for what potential alleged crime?

Elizabeth Kim: For basically holding seminars to her constituents on how to handle an ICE visit.

Brian Lehrer: At the town hall, Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez said this.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: You have the right to turn them away unless they have the proper paperwork or are coming in the proper way. When we first did one of these seminars, Tom Holman, then acting director of ICE, said that he was going to threaten to refer me to DOJ because I'm using my free speech rights in order to advise people of their constitutionally guaranteed protections. He may want to do it again today. To that I say, come for me. You're going to have to come for me.

[cheers]

[applause]

Brian Lehrer: Who knows, Liz, maybe they will. I mean, there's the case of that judge in Wisconsin who they did come for, for allegedly helping an undocumented immigrant who was in her courtroom slip away from ICE. This isn't at that level, just advising people generally what their rights are, but you don't know how far the Trump administration will go.

Elizabeth Kim: I don't know that, Brian, but that would be quite a showdown between Trump and one of the most popular Democrats [chuckles] right now in the country.

Brian Lehrer: All right, let's see. At the Lawler town hall--

Elizabeth Kim: Which was very different. [chuckles] I mean, you saw the applause that AOC got there, and then at Lawler, it was quite a chaotic-- It was a ruckus.

Brian Lehrer: Here's, I guess, the most newsworthy moment from that. This is Emily Feiner, a 64-year-old social worker, addressing Lawler at that town hall. You may have heard in the news, folks, that Feiner was later kicked out of the event for what Lawler called repeated disruptions.

Emily Feiner: Please detail what your red line is. At what point will you actually stand up for the Constitution?

[cheers]

[applause]

Emily Feiner: Thus far, you haven't done so.

Mike Lawler: I'm going to the White House tomorrow, and my colleagues and I will be meeting with the Department of Government Efficiency.

[heckles]

Mike Lawler: If you want me to be able to push back, that requires actually going and talking with. That requires sitting down and saying, hey, this is a problem.

Brian Lehrer: Let's go right to a caller, Nada in Rockland County, who says she was at that town hall and knows the questioner there, Emily Feiner. Nada, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Nada: Yes, hello. Good morning. Thank you for taking my call. I was not at Emily's town hall. I was at the previous. It's okay. I was at the one the previous week where I did get a chance to ask Congressman Lawler a question. I am a good friend of Emily's, and everybody now has seen Emily speaking at the town hall. The thing is, he never, ever directly answers a question. People in this county and in Westchester County in the 17th district are frustrated with him because he circumvents every question that he's asked.

She asked a very direct, simple question, and for that, she was removed, physically removed. I applaud her. She stood her ground. She stood her right to speak and ask a question. She was hardly being boisterous or Disruptive. She asked a question, she wanted an answer, he wouldn't give it, and she was physically removed.

Brian Lehrer: Nada, thank you for your call. I guess there are different versions. I didn't see it. Liz, I don't think you were there either, of how disruptive she was being. I don't know if you have anything on that, but many Republicans are not holding town halls to avoid scenes like that. Lawler had advance word that a lot of protesters would be showing up. I mean, we did our analysis earlier of why Cuomo and Adams, and others in the mayoral race, are doing what they're doing. Why would Lawler subject himself to that?

Elizabeth Kim: I think it's interesting that he's choosing to do these town halls, that was like the caller said, he held one last month, and he's going to do more. He has more on his schedule. I don't know whether he will follow through, but I think that as a moderate Republican, he's trying to draw some lines in the sand. The caller said that he refuses to answer questions. I watched some of last month's town hall, and he is trying to make certain points to his constituents that he's not in favor of cutting Medicaid.

Although what's odd about that is he did, in fact, vote for the bill that included $2 trillion in federal cuts, that included cuts to Medicaid. He's trying very hard to defend that. He's also trying to say things like he believes in vaccines. I think he's trying to win this moderate district by not coming off as too pro-MAGA. I think, for that reason, he's not taking the advice of his party and just not holding these town halls because he is trying to continue to broker a relationship with constituents who are clearly upset at him.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, that's a very purple district. He definitely would have a strong competitor, presumably if he runs for reelection next year. Maybe that's why he's voluntarily suffering the slings and arrows of these town halls, as you say. Also, as a last 24-hour addendum to the Lawler story, and then we're out of time, we know he's presumably also building his profile to run for governor next year.

Yesterday, did even you see this yet, Liz? President Trump said he's endorsing Lawler for reelection, which was actually a diss. It means Trump prefers Elise Stefanik, who was apparently also interested in getting the Republican nomination for governor. Lawler isn't moderate enough or MAGA enough for people making their voices heard right now, but obviously, too conservative for all those people who showed up to protest.

Elizabeth Kim: Right. Which leaves him fighting for this swing district. As you can tell from these town halls, he's in for a very competitive race.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe a competitive race for the Republican nomination for governor if he runs to Elise Stefanik's center and says she's too MAGA to get elected in New York State, but that's next year's election. We have time to come back to that. We will come back next Wednesday, presumably with Liz, to this year's election for mayor of New York.

Folks, we're also covering, of course, the election for governor of New Jersey. Our own Michael Hill is co-moderating the Republican debate in the primary for that nomination, and we're going to cover that on tomorrow morning show as we continue to cover the 2025 elections before we cover those in 2026. Liz, thanks as always. Probably talk to you next Wednesday.

Elizabeth Kim: Thanks, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. More to come.

 

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