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Matt Katz: I'm Matt Katz. I used to be a reporter here at WNYC, and today I'm sitting in for Brian. Welcome back to the Brian Lehrer Show. Many lucky high school seniors have a big choice to make this month. With colleges sending out acceptance letters by the end of March and the traditional May 1st decision day on the horizon, it's time for seniors to weigh the pros and cons and pick a place to spend the next four years or so. This year, with the Trump administration threatening to cut funding and intervening in academic decisions and revoking visas for some students, another layer of complication is involved in those decisions. To talk about this decision making process and offer some advice about what to do if your choices fell through, I'm joined by Angel Pérez, the CEO of the National Association for College Admission Counseling, or NACAC. Angel, welcome back to WNYC.

Angel Pérez: Thanks for having me.

Matt Katz: Listeners, if this is a decision you're making this month or you're helping someone make it, tell us about it. Share how you're weighing your options or if you need advice for finding a college for fall, even at this point in the process, call or text us at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. Big university, small liberal arts school, state school, private school, gap year, what are the big factors in your decision this year? 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. If you've been accepted via early decision, congratulations. Are you happy with your pick? 212-433-WNYC. Hope to hear from incoming college students.

Angel, wouldn't most students have applied to colleges before all of this Trump administration stuff? The executive order is issued on DEI, the demands on Columbia, is this new information that they now have to weigh after they've applied and while they're weighing their options?

Angel Pérez: That's a great point, Matt. The majority of students probably have already been through the college admissions process. Most students apply either in the late fall or early winter, and most colleges and universities, they deliver their decisions in March. April in this business, we call it yield season, that's the month that students have to make a decision about where they want to attend by May 1st.

You're right, the majority of students have been through the process, and all of this information that's happen happening with this new administration is relatively new. As you're hinting at, it certainly is going to help some families pause and think about, "What's the right decision, and how is all of this changing landscape going to impact where I decide to attend?"

Matt Katz: That's from the students' and their families' perspective. From the colleges' perspective, so far it's been the highly selective schools, Columbia, Harvard, Penn that have been threatened or faced funding cuts over how they've handled student protests or diversity programs or transgender athletes. Are most colleges not feeling the effects of all of this just yet?

Angel Pérez: I think every institution is feeling the effects of it. I do think it's important for everybody listening to know that, yes, the majority of institutions we're talking about are a pretty small, select group. Highly selective institutions are actually a pretty small number in the country, and so the institutions you're seeing in the media really don't represent the vast majority of institutions where students actually go to college. The majority of institutions in the United States actually admit the majority of the students that apply, but the reality is that there is a trickle-down effect when things happen at institutions like Harvard and Columbia.

I think everyone is nervous in higher education in our sector because we are seeing that there is a very serious backlash towards institutions of higher education. If there is an increase in the number of resources being taken away from institutions that eventually is going to trickle down and impact the student experience.

Matt Katz: What are you hearing from your members about what students and families are struggling with? What's concerning them? Is it the funding? Is it the academic freedom protests, diversity efforts? What are the things that they're most concerned about?

Angel Pérez: It's all that you just said and more. I definitely think students are nervous because they're watching on the news as institutions are really struggling, and so I think they are worried about whether or not they are going to have the experience that they originally thought they were going to have on campuses. Many students across the country want to make sure that they have an experience on campus where they feel a great sense of belonging, well, where they feel a great sense of connection.

DEI is certainly grossly misunderstood right now, and it's been a weaponized term, but really it's a resource that so many institutions use to welcome a diverse set of students onto campus. There's a really serious concern there around, "Will I be made to feel safe and welcome on this campus?" Finances are top of mind. Colleges and universities are very expensive in the United States, and so that's always going to be top of mind for students and one of the key decision drivers in the month of April.

One thing I wanted to share, Matt, is, there's this concern also, "Am I going to have the same research opportunities if research funding is taken away?" The majority of those research dollars do tend to go to graduate students and graduate student research, and so my guess is the majority of undergraduates will not feel that. Certainly that's not a broad statement. There will be some undergraduates that feel it, but I think that's something that students should know that the majority of research funding actually goes to graduate students.

Students are concerned about a lot of different things because the landscape is literally shifting right below us. I know we'll probably get there, but there's a lot of concern among international students as well.

Matt Katz: For sure. In the meantime, I'd love to take a call. We have Lisa from South Orange. Hi, Lisa. I understand your son was just admitted to a university. Congratulations.

Lisa: Thanks, Matt. Thanks for this topic. He just committed to Indiana University. We went to the admitted student weekend and really liked it. We're Big Ten fans and went to Big Ten school, so makes sense that we did.

The dean did answer a question about funding and this was six weeks ago, so didn't have a total sense and didn't have all of the cuts that we've seen since then. He was clearly flummoxed about it and didn't have a good answer.

The other thing I would say is that yes, he's going to school in a very red state, which is concerning to this very progressive family, but Bloomington is a college town and is blue. Friends have told me that Indianapolis is pretty blue. The other thing that gave me some hope about him being not totally cut off from some progressive ideals and movements is that there was a Times article on a town hall that a Republican representative held in a suburb [unintelligible 00:08:15] and she got booed off the stage. Gives me hope that he's going to be safe and find like-minded people.

Matt Katz: Your concern regarding the politics is that there wouldn't necessarily be progressive students or of the policies in a red state?

Lisa: Policies. I think there's going to be progressive students, but I would really say the policies that would affect him and reproductive rights, things like that.

Matt Katz: Thank you very much, Lisa. Thanks for calling, and I hope your son enjoys college. Angel, are applicants paying attention to state laws when it comes to reproductive rights or gender identification rights when they pick their schools?

Angel Pérez: Absolutely. I'll add my congratulations to Lisa. Go Big Ten. I'm a big fan. The reality is, and I'm hearing from a lot of our members who are high school counselors across the country, that this is now a part of the college advising conversation that they really didn't have before with students, which is the local politics, not just in the state, but also in the local area. I've heard from counselors that a lot of young women in particular are thinking about whether or not they are going to attend college in states where the anti-abortion laws could be a particular barrier for them. There is a lot of fear there.

What I would say is that the landscape is evolving. We are seeing that a lot of this legislation or some of the executive orders coming out of the White House are happening at such a rapid pace that it's really difficult to predict what will certain states look like, what will certain institutions look like. I think it is important not to get so overwhelmed- I call it decision paralysis, not to get so overwhelmed by all of the things happening. Really, does the student feel a level of comfort on the college campus? When they went to visit, did they feel a sense of belonging? Are they excited about the academic program? Those things are not changing.

I think it's important also just to remind everyone that's listening, and I'm someone who spends a lot of time on college campuses all across the United States, there is still so much exciting, wonderful stuff happening on campuses. Every time I'm on a college campus, so much joy from the students. I understand the fear. It is definitely reasonable given everything happening, but also move forward with as much information that you have right now.

Matt Katz: We had a caller who was saying that she had friends of hers. The kids of the friends of hers got admitted to Barnard and Columbia, but they're concerned about Jewish students feeling safe at schools like that. Are applicants weighing how schools may have handled, at least from an outside perspective, anti-Semitic, Islamophobic incidents? This has been in the news so much. You could imagine the concern of a parent sending a child who might openly identify of a certain religious background, and they're being concerned about any hate that they may face.

Angel Pérez: Absolutely. That's another thing I'm hearing from our high school counselors, particularly also from-- We have a Jewish special interest group, so a lot of high school counselors who are based in Jewish schools, that Jewish students, in particular, are really thinking strategically about where they are going to enroll. They have been paying very close attention to how institutions have been handling anti-Semitism.

If we were to widen that lens, I think students in particular right now, they care so deeply about these global issues, and they are paying very close attention to how institutions are responding. Also, more importantly, how are they supporting the students that are on the campus? On the other side of that, they're also watching very closely what happens when students protest, for example.

So many students, especially those that care deeply about social justice issues, want to be able to go to a campus and want to be able to fight for the issues that they care about, and so they're also watching this landscape evolve and wondering, "Will I be able to be vocal on the campus that I attend?" That's part of the decision making as well.

Matt Katz: You mentioned this earlier, but let's turn to international students. Pretty chilling when the dean of Columbia's journalism school had to tell his international students that no one could protect them, that he could not protect them. Yesterday we learned that US Embassies are being directed to check the social media accounts of foreign students seeking visas to study here. We've talked on the show about Mahmoud Khalil, who's facing deportation, who was involved in protests at Columbia, as well as a tough student, another graduate student who was detained, facing deportation over actions around the Gaza protests. Is all of this scaring off international applicants?

Angel Pérez: Absolutely. I have to say, I'm personally devastated as someone who spent so much of my career advocating for global student mobility and trying to encourage as many students as possible to come and take advantage of American higher education. Students are really afraid, and I am hearing from our members who are abroad who are advising students who feel a sense of worry.

Students right now are excited because they were admitted to institutions, but when you have images of students being detained by ICE and all of the barriers that are being put in front of international students, it certainly has a chilling effect. International students are critical to the success of institutions across the country, not just because they bring culture, but they also bring finances with them. They contribute to the culture of the organization.

I'm really concerned that we are going to see a precipitous drop in the number of international students this year, and that is going to be at the detriment of American students who won't have access to that kind of international experience also. We are going to see that impact universities in an incredible way.

Matt Katz: Maybe international graduate students may really feel the brunt of this when it comes to research grant cuts, which is in addition to some of the issues that might crop up over visas. That's a separate compounding problem for international graduate students.

Angel Pérez: I think on the research front, the international graduate students certainly will feel it the most. Again, this chilling effect, I do know that in India, for example, the images of the students being detained have been in the front pages of the newspapers. They have been in the front pages of newspapers in China. Those are two of the largest countries that send students to study in the United States. It will have a serious effect on enrollment. Again, we're talking about the particular timing. It is April. This is decision making time, so it couldn't come at the worst time in enrollment.

Matt Katz: Melanie from Maplewood, New Jersey. Hi, Melanie. Thanks for calling in.

Melanie: Hi. Hi, Matt. I was just calling because my son actually graduated high school last summer and is currently on a gap year. He did apply last year for school but didn't get to go where he wanted, and in the process of his gap year, he's very much changed his idea of what he wants to do in school. He's traveled numerous places in the world and is currently living in Kenya volunteering in a school, and he's definitely been paying attention to what's been happening in American politics and world politics in terms of where he wants to apply.

He wants very much to be at a school where he will meet people with an international mindset and have an awareness as to where they fit in in the world as opposed to just in America. He actually hasn't decided where he's going to go and he has to make a decision before he gets back from Kenya. He wants to study international relations, so he wants to be sure that he will go to a school where he will meet my like-minded people who are aware of world as it's affected by American politics.

Matt Katz: Angel, do you have any advice for Melanie's son in terms of how he can be making that sort of evaluation, especially since he's halfway around the world right now?

Angel Pérez: First of all, congratulations. It also sounds like a gap year in Kenya. That sounds incredible. the one thing I will say is that, despite what's happening and what you're seeing on the news, which by the way, is a small percentage of institutions in this country, every college president that I speak to today, every dean of admission, every dean of international schools, continues to remind me that they are deeply committed to diverse communities, they are deeply committed to internationalization. That work is not going to stop. I certainly would encourage your son to stay the course and continue to think about the institutions he's going to attend.

One of the things that I would say is one of the greatest resources that students have as they make this decision is other students on the college campus. I have to tell you, college students love talking about their experience, and so reach out directly to some students, follow the student newspaper on social media. What are the students talking about on campus? Reach out, for example, to, if he's interested in international studies or international relations, the head of that department, and say, "Can you put me in touch with a few students who I might talk to about what has this experience been like?"

There's a way in which you can get information that's not going to be in the brochures, that's not going to be necessarily on social media, so you can really understand what is the lived experience of this student on the campus.

Matt Katz: I want to ask you one more question, Angel. Thank you so much, Melanie. Appreciate you calling and congratulations. Angel, I have one more question related to the Supreme Court court ruling in 2023 that race can't be a factor in college admissions. How much of an effect has that had? The Trump administration has launched investigations into colleges that offer race-based programs. Do you expect all of this to have an effect on which school students end up picking and then what students end up getting picked by the schools?

Angel Pérez: Well, I'll start with the first part, which is admission. Colleges and universities, they are abiding by the law. They know that post-SFA decision by the Supreme Court that they cannot use race in college admission, but the Trump administration is using this as a catalyst to sue institutions. Last week we learned that they are going to sue the UC system, which I have called publicly absurd because the UC system has not used race in college admissions since Prop 209 in the late 1990s.

We are going to see this kind of litigation continue, and that does again have an impact on the student experience. I think so many students in this country want to have an experience on a college campus that is diverse, where they are learning from different kinds of students, and also that they are supported.

One thing I'll share with you, Matt, is the data here does not lie. By the year 2040, students of color are going to be the majority of students in America. The first is going to be multiracial students. They're going to be the highest percentage, and then the highest percentage is Hispanic students. If we do not figure out how to recruit, retain, and cultivate these young people, it's not just a loss for institutions, but we're talking about the future of our workforce in America.

Matt Katz: So many unbelievable implications to all of these different issues. Really appreciate you parsing this for us. Angel Pérez, CEO of the National Association for College Admission Counseling. Thanks so much, Angel.

Angel Pérez: Thanks.

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