Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We'll close today with a call-in for Italian Americans on this week of Indigenous Peoples' Day/Columbus Day/Italian Heritage Day. It's so awkward the way it is with this kind of shared holiday or replacement holiday that can leave everybody involved feeling aggrieved and marginalized. Our question is, would you support disconnecting these holidays and establishing a separate Italian Heritage Day disconnected from Columbus on another day on the calendar? Italian American listeners, only you. Would you support disconnecting these holidays and establishing a separate Italian Heritage Day on another day on the calendar? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

As we discussed on Monday's show, which was Columbus Day/Indigenous Peoples' Day/Italian Heritage Day, Columbus might have sailed the ocean blue in 1492, but it wasn't until 1934 that Congress and President Franklin Roosevelt made Columbus Day a national holiday. As CNN tells it on their website, "As waves of Italian immigrants arrived in the US in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, they faced prejudice and discrimination. To combat negative perceptions, a group of Italian American elites took up the cause of Columbus Day, arguing that the contributions of Italian immigrants had helped make America the nation it was." That from CNN.

Since the 1970s, Indigenous Americans have been fighting to have their stories taught in public schools and the public square too. That includes seeing Columbus in a much more negative light as a pioneer of massive colonial violence and theft, as you know, at the expense of Indigenous communities. Italian Americans, what if the US were to just give up Columbus Day and establish a separate Italian Heritage Day some other time during the year to respect both peoples and disconnect the two things? Would you support that idea? 212-433-WNYC.

The way it is, it's so awkward and leaves everyone feeling aggrieved. New York City, for example, seems to recognize three holidays at this point. As Gothamist reported this week, Mayor Adams and Governor Hochul were among the politicians marching in what is still called the Columbus Day Parade. The New York City Public Schools gave students and staff the day off. They call it Indigenous Peoples' Day/Italian Heritage Day. Italian Americans, would you support disconnecting these holidays?

How about this, maybe even peg it to a different person than Columbus; someone more universally respected and less tainted by the dark and violent realities that were part of Columbus's actual stories that didn't used to get taught in school, but now they are. Maybe Yankee fans out there in playoff season might nominate Joe DiMaggio Day. Okay, just kidding. More seriously, maybe a saint. Like Irish Americans have St. Patrick's Day, right? What about St. Frances Xavier Cabrini, better known as Mother Cabrini, for an example? I understand it as non-Catholic as I am, but my understanding is her feast day is November 13th. There is a precedent for this in one state. In 2020, Colorado did replace Columbus Day with Cabrini Day, one week before Columbus Day, first Monday in October. We have at least that as a model.

You don't have to name a person, but you can if you like or you think that's fun. The bottom line question is, would you support disconnecting a celebration of Italian heritage from Indigenous Peoples' Day and from Columbus Day and establishing a separate Italian Heritage Day on another day on the calendar? 212-433-WNYC. Call or text, Italian American listeners, 212-433-9692, and we'll see what you have to say right after this.

Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now to your calls, if you're Italian American, on the question, would you support disconnecting a celebration of Italian heritage from Indigenous Peoples' Day and from Christopher Columbus and establishing a separate Italian Heritage Day on another day on the calendar? Everybody would get their own days. They wouldn't be competing and everybody feeling aggrieved. Or do you hate the idea?

Joe in St. Albans, Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi, Joe.

Joe: Brian, good morning. Let me first say, Sicilian American.

Brian Lehrer: Okay.

Joe: I am nominating Verrazzano to replace Columbus, if they ever replace Columbus. The reason, Verrazzano, he's the first Italian American to sail into New York Harbor, and New York Harbor eventually became the gateway to America. I don't know any families anywhere that do not have a connection to New York or Boston as their entryway to this great country.

Brian Lehrer: Verrazzano, who already has a bridge, maybe should have a day. Do you object at all to the idea of moving away from Columbus?

Joe: I think it's going to be impossible to do. That's so rooted in our language, and Columbus, Ohio, Columbus this, Columbus that. I think it would be very difficult, but again, Italian for Italian, Verrazzano would be a fair exchange.

Brian Lehrer: Joe, thank you very much. Let's go to John in Beacon, New York. John, you're on WNYC. Hi.

John: Hey, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: What you got?

John: Hello? Yes, so I think that we should swap out Columbus for James Gandolfini. I'm an Italian American. I grew up in Paterson, New Jersey. We are enormously proud that James Gandolfini portrayed the single greatest TV character of all time, and everyone can just feel good about it without having to look back at all of these historical atrocities. It would just-- If you want to honor a homicidal maniac, it would be way better to have one who was a fictional homicidal maniac instead of an actual one.

Brian Lehrer: [chuckles] I guess if your choices are only among homicidal maniacs. John, thank you very much. Let's see. How about Alessandro in Nassau County? You're on WNYC. Hi, Alessandro.

Alessandro: Hi, Brian. Just calling in to say that I would fully support removing Columbus as the representative of the Italian American community. I don't think he really represents the Italian American experience in any way whatsoever. He never even sailed for Italy, so I'm not entirely sure why he still is the standard bearer for the Italian American community. I would fully support removing him from the holiday either in honor of Verrazzano, as the previous caller mentioned, would be a great choice, or someone like Mother Cabrini, who really instilled the values of a true Italian American. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: You don't have any thoughts on when it should be, right? They can just find a place that isn't already occupied [crosstalk]--

Alessandro: No, not particularly. Yes, not particularly, but I do think that splitting from the Indigenous Peoples' Day and having two separate holidays to celebrate both equally would be best.

Brian Lehrer: Alessandro, thank you very much. Well, a lot of people seem to like this idea. Maybe we're starting a movement. Terry in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Terry.

Terry: Hey, Brian. How are you doing? A couple of things, so just sort of on the origins of Columbus Day. I don't know if you mentioned this. I might have been talking to your screener when you did. It sort of came out of, on the part of Italian Americans, not just discrimination, but lynchings. That was the thing that the Italian Americans were reacting to. Including in New Orleans on March 14th, 1891, 11 Italians lynched in one day. To which the official response was, who cares? Some newspapers, including The Washington Post, said a great thing. The people of New Orleans did what the courts failed to do. They estimated that approximately 87 Italians were lynched in the late 19th and early 20th century. This is what the Columbus Day came out of, it kind of came out of fear. I just think we should treat the origins perhaps a little more gently than we do.

That said, I am very much in favor of First Peoples having their own day. I think that would be a great thing. I do think we could ditch Columbus. I have no problem with that at all. I think maybe we could replace, just as the Irish-- as you said, as the Irish have St. Patrick's Day, St. Francis Day would be great. It's October 4th. St. Francis is not only the patron saint of Italy, but he's also the patron saint of ecology and the environment, so I think he would be a good choice. Certainly, everybody knows his connection to animals. People love animals. People love St. Francis. Brother Sun, Sister Moon, St. Francis.

Brian Lehrer: And after whom our current Pope took his name, I believe.

Terry: That is correct. The first one to have done it.

Brian Lehrer: Terry, thank you very much. That one might be very popular, at least among our listeners. Louise in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Louise.

Louise: Good morning, Brian. First of all, Brian, can I just tell you how much I've learned from your 100 Years of 100 Things? It's just been so informative, and especially the one that you did recently on Indigenous people. I would [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much.

Louise: You're welcome. I would agree that I think we should separate the two days and they should both be recognized. Not necessarily Columbus. I don't have any devotion to that person, but I believe most Italian Americans do, and there would probably be pushback if they removed his name. I don't like, personally, having names associated with holidays, bridges, whatever. Because sooner or later, somebody digs up something negative and it kind of muddies the history of that person. I love the suggestions that have been made. I think it would be important to separate these two. I also wonder if most people realize that Columbus never set foot on North America, and we're the ones that celebrate that day. He was in South America, he was in the island-

Brian Lehrer: In the Caribbean, yes.

Louise: -but never in North America. Yet, we make the big deal over Columbus Day. Maybe we should designate a different day, and certainly a day for Indigenous people.

Brian Lehrer: Louise, thank you very much for your call and your nice words. Gina in Stanford, you're on WNYC. Hi, Gina.

Gina: Hi, Brian. Thanks. I very strongly support Mother Cabrini as the replacement because she is the most connected to the Italian American immigrant experience. She was an immigrant herself, she was a woman and overcame a lot of obstacles, so it makes the most sense. The issue with Columbus, and I'm not a fan, is that we have all learned this mythology of Columbus. It started with the-- I'm glad another caller mentioned the origin of the holiday in the lynchings that happened of Sicilians in the 1860s who were considered Black. They were doing a lot of like mine work. There was almost a war, which is why-- I don't know which president it was. Maybe Benjamin Harrison said, okay, here's an Italian. That was what people believed, right?

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

Gina: It became so strongly associated. I do remember the holiday being so closely associated with Italian American pride until we started to see more ethnic pride parades in New York City. I grew up right outside of Queens in Elmont. My family is from Queens originally. I think it's just so hard because the community has developed these traditions, right? It's October, it's our heritage month, and it can be really hard to undo, and a lot of Italian Americans feel attacked with the attacks on Columbus [crosstalk]--

Brian Lehrer: Right, yes. Forgive me for cutting in, but we're running out of time. You make great points. You, like the previous caller, say, yes, a lot of people will feel attacked by attempting to dissociate from Columbus at all. Maybe it will be better for everybody, maybe, maybe, maybe, and everybody can have their own day, but yes, it does involve giving up Christopher Columbus as the guy who stands in for Italian heritage, who represents it on a national holiday, at least in this model.

Everybody, thanks for your calls. We really appreciate it. Very thoughtful calls. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That's The Brian Lehrer Show for today, produced by Mary Croke, Lisa Allison, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum. Our interns this term are Andrés Pacheco-Girón and Olivia Green. Megan Ryan is the head of Live Radio, and that was Juliana Fonda at the audio controls. Stay tuned for Alison.

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