Title: Career Counseling Courtesy of the New York Public Library

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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Now we'll wrap up the series of conversations we've been having about making a good living without a college degree. We're ending with an advice segment. We've talked about alternative pathways into work, about how some employers are starting to embrace skills-based hiring, not necessarily based on what degree you have, and about how state and city programs are trying in other ways to open more doors for so-called STARs, the acronym for workers Skilled Through Alternative Routes.

Today, advice. We invite your calls for a career counselor, especially if you don't have a four-year degree or your degree has kind of run out of usefulness in the career-building sense. We did one of our segments in this series explicitly about that for mid-career people. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text a question.

For example, maybe somebody wants to know what it takes to stand out in today's labor market if you don't have a four-year degree or how you navigate a hiring process which is shaped by AI algorithms and other things that might screen you out without a college degree before you even get to make an impression or any other question for Louisa Tatum, Career Services Manager at the New York Public Library. She offers one-on-one career coaching to job seekers across the city. Yes, the public library has that service. Now she'll be taking your calls, too. 212-433-9692. Louisa, thanks for coming on and offering your services for this. Welcome back to WNYC.

Louisa: Thank you so much for having me, Brian. It is a pleasure to be here.

Brian: Listeners, again, your advice, questions welcome, or share any piece of advice that you may have, listeners. You can do that too in this series-ending advice segment. You can tell us what piece of advice may have helped you land your last job, especially without a college degree, or if your college degree wasn't relevant anymore, or what you wish you had known before starting your job search, any advice from you. 212-433-WNYC, ask for some or offer some. 212-433-9692, call or text. Louisa, let's start with your own work a little bit. What do you enjoy most about being a career counselor, and who are the people who come to the library for your help?

Louisa: As was mentioned, I'm the manager of career services, so I don't often get to see as many people as I used to, but I did spend a couple of years career coaching. One of the things, or a few things, that we offer in career services is providing essential professional development support, resources, webinars, as well as events for job seekers and professionals. We offer free support to help patrons, which is the public, achieve their career and employment goals, including coaching, resume and cover letter writing, job application support, as well as career development events.

We cover a number of different things, and the people that we serve are New Yorkers like yourself. We serve those who find themselves new to New York. We serve those who are career professionals, early career professionals. Everyone is welcome at the New York Public Library and in career services to gain the support that they need. We're just really happy to provide that support for everyone, and looking forward to find out ways in which we can even better support New Yorkers, whether it's finding employment, improving their skills, or just talking through their ideas on how to advance in their careers, irregardless of their educational background.

Brian: Let's say somebody comes in without a four-year degree. How do you start? How do you try to match their skills and interests, or what they might get skilled in, to their needs and their potential futures?

Louisa: One of the first things that I encourage all of my coaches, as well as the career associates, staff, and everyone on the career services team, to do is to really get to know the person that they're talking to. We don't start with, what's your educational background? We focus on what are the things that you are interested in? What is a career opportunity or a job that you think that you may want right now? Then focusing on how do we help you to get that potential career opportunity and what might be needed in order to get it?

Sometimes we have to focus on what are your needs and what are your wants? If someone does not have a college degree, but their priority right now is getting a job because they need to pay their rent, because New York rent is so high, then we need to prioritize what they might need to do, and look at career opportunities or even just jobs in general that they can get quickly so that they can make money and then devise a plan so that we can work towards a long term goal.

For me, in my opinion, long term isn't one year. Long term can be six months, because if you're working in a particular job that's covering your basic needs, then you can then focus on what your wants are, which are gaining a job that leads to a career and long term career progression, as well as upward mobility for yourself as well as your family.

Brian: Do you keep a list or a database or something at the library of various apprenticeship programs, boot camp programs, certification programs, all those kinds of things we've been talking about in this series?

Louisa: Yes, we do keep a list of a number of different organizations that have resources. Again, our feedback is tailored to the individual. If you were interested in a career in construction, there's a number of programs that are open to women who want to work in construction after doing career transition. If you want a culinary program, if you want to get into technology, there are programs that are opportunities, as well as a number of the Fortune 500 offer certification programs that you can get that you can do at your leisure. We do have a list of resources that we offer, and a number of organizations do reach out to us.

Our advice is really focused on making sure that we help you gain whatever it is that you are looking to do, or help you identify how you can create goals. It's not about us pushing something on you, because I think there's enough of that in the world. It's really how can we help you cultivate your ideas and really make that happen and plug in different organizations, as well as education resources, certifications, as well as just helping you to apply for the job directly as well.

Brian: Here's an advice question from a listener in a text. Listener writes, "I have been a stay-at-home mother for almost 20 years, and as my children are preparing to leave the nest, I've been trying to look for work. I feel that the gap in my resume and only having an associate's degree has been making it difficult. Can your guest offer advice?" Where would you start for that listener?

Louisa: The first place to start, I think, for everyone, not just this wonderful mom, is that you have a number of skills that you've been utilizing over the course of your career. Being a mother, a homemaker, someone who's managing the home is essentially a career in itself, and it has many different job titles. Sometimes we all need to take a step back and really evaluate the value of the work that we're doing and the skills that we've acquired.

For this particular caller, I would say as a mom, you are a project manager. You are managing and running the household and making sure that the kids' schedule, things that they're doing, and everything is working properly in your home. That's a project manager. That's a job title that you will find out in the world. You can also think of another skill that's gained, is someone who is a teacher in a way, you're teaching and training. Training and development or learning and development are aspects of the job.

It's really building the confidence is another piece to take a step back and really just evaluate, not look at yourself in one dimension as your job title as a mom, but really what skills have I developed that actually exist that I might find on a job description that I can leverage and how can I communicate that? I don't think that there's anyone in the world who would say that a mom is not a project manager who can basically keep things running. Managing and multitasking and making sure that everything is working.

How would you communicate that to an employer? How you communicate that on your resume? You have to be a bit creative, and that's what our coaches do when they're helping people write resumes is you're describing the things that you're doing. Maybe you're not following a standard resume, like a chronological resume, maybe you're doing something that's considered a hybrid, which focuses on your skill sets and your qualifications and your transferable skills at the top, and then maybe has some additional work experience at the bottom. That's one method.

I think also using your network, people undervalue the skill of networking and connecting with people that they know. Maybe there are other women out there and men out there who were stay-at-home parents and they've now transitioned. Can you find them in your mom groups or Facebook groups that you might be a part of? Can you connect with friends to find a new job opportunity? Leveraging your network is the best and the fastest way to find employment.

Brian: By the way, another stay-at-home mom hearing this part of the conversation writes, "A few more stay-at-home mom skills, budgeting, organizing,-

Louisa: Exactly.

Brian: -carrying the mental load, travel planning, volunteering. Did you volunteer for a PTA?" Listener writes, "Event planning." The resourcefulness of the stay-at-home moms and how people might be able to frame it as they try to enter the paid workforce again. You were just talking about networking, and I think Lynn in Fort Lee has something on that. Lynn, you're on WNYC. Hello?

Lynn: Hi. I'm so glad you have this conversation. I just want to tell about my niece. She was in her late 30s and she needed to change a job. There was something going on where she was at. She has her resume on LinkedIn, she's well credentialed, and she was getting no hits. What she decided to do was she actually looked around at people who were on LinkedIn who were in the companies that she was interested in. She then asked them, could she friend them?

She said they looked-- Obviously, they looked at her credentials, and they were like, "Sure, you can friend me." Then she sent them a request. She said, "Look, I know there's lots of jobs that come up in-house even before they're posted." She said, "Would you mind letting me know about them?" In two weeks, she had seven interviews and she got three offers.

Brian: That's great. That's the modern equivalent of what I did before there was LinkedIn. I've never told this story before. When I was right out of college and trying to break into radio and radio news, I went to the W section of the phone book. I just went down the page W, blah, blah, blah. I was living in Albany at the time. W, and I called every radio station, and I said, "I hear you have an opening," which was total BS, but one of them did. Guess what? I got the job. Lynn, I think you're giving us the 2025 equivalent of that. Just start contacting people on LinkedIn.

Louisa: Yes, [unintelligible 00:12:32]. I'm sorry.

Brian: Hang on. Let the caller finish for a sec. Lynn, go ahead.

Louisa: All right.

Lynn: No, I was just saying, I've told a lot of people who-- I have a practice, so a lot of people come in, are looking for jobs and want to switch jobs, and they're just getting no hits. I told them all what my niece did, and they all were able to get jobs within a month. They were so happy.

Brian: Lynn, thank you so much for that. Maybe a lot of people can use that. Louisa, what did you want to add?

Louisa: I just wanted to add, sometimes LinkedIn is a great tool and a great resource. I highly recommend it. You can be networking in the grocery store. You could be networking in the line for coffee. It doesn't have to be in such a formal sense. Sometimes you can network using all other social media methods. For people who feel as though, "I'm not sure if they'll respond," you take a chance every single day when you get on the subway, that the subway is going to be early.

Why not take a chance in this instance and just talk to people, just communicate and pick their brain, find out a little bit about what they do, because the more that you have what's called informational interviews with individuals, just learning a bit more about them allows them to learn about you. Then you can share, I'm thinking about making a career transition in this particular area. I have these experiences. That's really important.

You do need to, one, focus on your confidence, which we can help you do with career coaching at the New York Public Library, but also think about what's going to be your pitch. If you had an opportunity, if you just ran into someone who has a hiring opportunity for you, whether it's on LinkedIn or anywhere else, what would you say? You do need to be ready and prepared for that conversation.

Brian: Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're in the final segment of the series we've been doing on being upwardly mobile without a college degree, ending with an advice segment with Louisa Tatum, Career Services Manager at the New York Public Library. Yes, the library offers one-on-one career coaching to job seekers across the city. We're inviting your calls, seeking advice, or like the last caller, offering advice, especially to people who are breaking in or changing careers or without a college degree, or even if your college degree has stopped working for you, become less relevant in making a living sense. 212-433-9692. Lucille in Hazlet, you're on WNYC. Hi, Lucille.

Lucille: Hello. I'm calling because when I graduated from college, I got a job for which I needed a degree, and it was a really low-level administrative job in a bank. A friend of mine suggested that I look into going into sales, which never really appealed to me, but I did. At his suggestion, he was working at a television station, I called his boss and said, "I'd really like to find out about broadcast advertising. I'm not looking for a job, but I just want to know." He gave me a meeting, and I ended up getting a job offer from him after I had already gotten a job offer from another company.

My advice is, if you get into sales and you can be successful at it, you can always change jobs very easily. You can change industries very easily. You start out in radio, and then you go to television, and then maybe you go to something else. You can prove that you are good at what you do, and it doesn't matter what industry you're in. Then in the meantime, you can make really as much money as you want, because sales jobs very often are commission-based. It's a really good career path. I never would have thought I would do it, but I've done it my whole life now.

Brian: Lucille, thank you very much. Do you ever track people toward sales jobs, per se, with the non-college degree advice seekers you get at the library? Is that something that comes up?

Louisa: The coaching staff doesn't really push people towards any particular career. If someone said to me, "I really like working with people, I want to make a lot of money, and I get bored easily." Those would be some of the characteristics that I would say, "Then sales might be something that you would be interested in." You could also work in tech. You could also work in an environment on Wall Street. That's also fast-paced and changes every rapid minute. The thing that we, I think, need to consider is that there are many different careers that have opportunities that would fit our skill set, that also fit our interests, and the things that we like to do on a regular basis, and the things that keep us motivated every single day.

I do want to mention some of the ways that you can explore career opportunities is by checking out job fairs. The New York Public Library actually has an upcoming job fair that's happening in just a few weeks on May 23rd at 10:00 AM to 3:00 PM at our flagship location, which is at the Stephen A. Schwarzman Building on 42nd Street and 5th. That could be an opportunity for you to connect and explore and ask questions and find opportunities that you might be interested in and consider, whether it's sales or any other career opportunity.

Brian: Cool that you shouted that out, that event. Listener writes, seeking advice. First of all, they write, "THANK GOD FOR THE PUBLIC LIBRARY." Probably didn't realize that the library offers career counseling advice. Then they write, "What do you do when you're in pursuit of a secondary degree but find it is outdated? Currently attending Marist University and wishing I had done something hands-on instead, but I still need the background info. Is there somewhere to pivot for marketing?" Asks this listener. Anything you can say?

Louisa: Yes, absolutely. One thing to consider if you're still in school is seeing if you can pick up an additional class without an additional cost. That's one. Does the school have a marketing department? Who is the company that does the marketing for the school? Reaching out to them and seeing if there's an opportunity to intern or see if there's an opportunity for an informational interview. Use and leverage where you are, the institutions where you are, even employers. No one will turn down someone who's willing to do free work. Never, never in the history of work.

If you indicate, I'd like to work on a particular project, I'd like to learn a little bit more. Can I have an informational interview with you, maybe 15, 20 minutes, to ask you some poignant questions about how you broke into the industry? That can be like you're in to learn a little bit. Then you can say, "Do you know of any job opportunities or companies that I might want to consider?"

For this particular student, I would ask professors, see if they have a marketing department. Go talk to one of the head of the department, because that is the person who typically finds out about job opportunities that are available for the students for the school. Talk to any of the professors, go to your own career services office, if they have a career fair, to find out if there's anything coming up in the future, because that can be just a great moment for you to just gain information before you graduate.

I do want to just provide just a tip is irregardless of what you study, irregardless of what you're doing right now, everything that you do is a skill that you're gaining that you can use in the future. The person might feel as though that their degree isn't necessarily going to be marketable, and they want more hands-on experience. You can gain that hands-on experience. Volunteermatch.org is a resource that you can try on volunteering.

Just know that everything that you're doing, you are learning, and you can apply that learning and those skills in any direction that you choose. You may have to learn a little bit more, you may have to practice a little bit more, but that's where your network comes in. Connecting with people, asking questions as to how you can transition, how you can pivot, can be really impactful.

Brian: A listener appreciative of the services the library offers writes in a text, "I attended a great workshop about naming your business and branding at the library. Thanks for that." One more call. Pedro in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. I think you have advice to offer, right, Pedro? Hi.

Pedro: Yes. Thank you so much for having me. I really love the conversation around transferable skills, not just related to parents transitioning back into the workforce, but anyone. I really think that there's something to be said about just advocating for yourself in the job application process, because a lot of people sell themselves short, thinking that they can't do a job just because they can't check every box on the requirements list. The reality is that not everyone can check the box.

What's the point of doing the job if you're an expert at it already? If you're trying to learn something, it's really about advocating for yourself, showing that you're reliable, and that you can do most of the job. Then the rest is about learning. If an employer can't support your learning, that says a lot more about the employer than it does to the employee.

Brian: Pedro, thanks so much for that. I said that was going to be the last call, but I was going to ask you a closing question about AI. Zeke in Park Slope is calling with something on that, so I'm going to let him do it. Zeke, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Zeke: Hi, Brian. Again, you're always a pleasure. It's always a pleasure to listen to your programs, always educational and informational. I have been in the talent acquisition business and recruiting for quite some time, and it's a very fast-paced environment that we are in today. Several points I'd like to make. One is in terms of meeting people, there's so many ways to go out, like Meetup, Eventbrite, to go at presentations or events, but you can talk to people, get a sense of what's going on. You can meet people. You get a sense about the industry, the sector.

In terms of tools to find out about that industry, AI provides you with a lot of opportunities where you can go and question, ask, and get a sense of everything from earnings, some skill sets, what's the market like. Then finally, we're always, all of us are afraid to interview. I don't care who you are, even great interviewers and interviewees. Once you're going out to job opportunities, sometimes you can just, if you know friends or people, do mock interviews.

If you can do mock interviews, believe it or not, that can be 50% of winning the opportunity. Again, I reiterate, for those who are trying to figure out where to go, what to do, what new opportunities, go to a Meetup, go to Eventbrite, look at an area you might be interested in, and then go to some of those events and listen to the speakers.

Brian: Really good advice, Zeke. Thank you very much. I'll close, Louisa, just by saying a few people have texted who want to help you. Listener writes, "Are there any volunteer opportunities as a career counselor in your program?" A couple of people writing things like that. Do you have that?

Louisa: We do have volunteer opportunities. I would encourage you to reach out to career services at nypl.org if you're interested in volunteering with us. We have a very extensive volunteer application process. We are definitely looking for volunteers because we want to be able to provide support to all New Yorkers, and doing that in the best way that we can. That includes New Yorkers being a part of our strong volunteers that we have at the New York Public Library, as well as our staff that we have on hand.

Brian: There is where we're going to leave it because we are totally out of time. That ends our series on being upwardly mobile, making a good living without a four-year college degree. We thank our final guest, Louisa Tatum, Career Services Manager at the New York Public Library. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise.

Louisa: Thank you so much. We look forward to seeing you at our job fair on May 23rd. Have a great day.

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