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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. After having our latest candidate interview in the mayoral race with Republican Curtis Sliwa there, we're going to talk about it and some other campaign news with our political reporter Elizabeth Kim, who joins us every Wednesday, and now is being forced to join us on Thursday as well, two days in a row. Should get overtime. Liz, hi. Happy Thursday.

Elizabeth Kim: Happy Thursday, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, any reactions to what you just heard or other relevant things on the mayoral race, 212-433-WNYC, or questions for Liz. 212-433-9692. Call or text. Did Slua make any news there?

Elizabeth Kim: What I thought was interesting is that unlike Adams and Cuomo, who have kind of described Zohran Mamdani as this existential threat to New York City, Sliwa isn't going there. You tried to tease this out of him several times, but he's actually making the argument, I felt almost, not that he's pro-Zohran. He does say very clearly that we disagree on issues, but he came out saying that we had socialists in our city before we've had communists in our city before. He says, "This is nothing to be frightened of." He says, "I'm not going after his religion. I'm not going after the controversy about what box he checked when he applied to Colombia. He didn't get in. That's not a story."

It's interesting to me that he spends all this time, I think, making Zohran seem like a normal candidate, whereas the other two rivals are doing anything but. They are accusing Zohran of being a radical, of being an anti-Semite. Sliwa isn't going there. Instead, he's saving all of his energy to eviscerate Adams, which he did a lot of. Then he had a lot of attacks on Cuomo later on, too.

Brian Lehrer: Why do you think his take on Mamdani is more mild, and maybe less hysterical is the way he would characterize it, than the other candidates?

Elizabeth Kim: That's interesting. I'd have to think about why he's doing that. Obviously, the base that he's reaching for overlaps with both Cuomo and Adams. He's a Republican, but obviously, he thinks that there are voters out there who are up for grabs, like the 1 million independent voters in New York City. I think he's trying to peel away from that base. He's not going to spend a lot of time and energy attacking Zohran when I think he needs to woo the Adams and Cuomo voters.

Brian Lehrer: Give us your best take on the Curtis Sliwa base. Who were the 28% of voters who went for him over Eric Adams in 2021, to the extent that you know, or, for that matter, the similar amount, around 30% that Trump got in the city last year?

Elizabeth Kim: Listening to Curtis talk about the Guardian Angels reminds me that he has been a fixture of New York City, a fixture of New York City culture, a fixture of New York City politics, and that his bread and butter is on this subway safety issue. It reminded me of how entrenched this issue is, to think about the problems of homelessness, to think about the problems of crime on the subway. For better or for worse, he is someone that New Yorkers know.

He's running as a Republican. There are people who will vote on the Republican line. There are areas, pockets of the city, that are strongholds for Republicans. For example, in 2021, he won the borough of Staten Island, although we should say that the North Shore voted for Adams. He peeled away votes in the Rockaways in Southern Brooklyn. There were pockets of Bath Beach, Gravesend, that voted for him. Another stronghold, Maspeth in Queens, which sits on the western border of Long Island. He does have a base of support in New York City.

Brian Lehrer: What do you make of the state of this deal that Cuomo and independent candidate Jim Walden are floating, that all the non-Mamdani candidates would endorse whoever among them is leading around mid-September or so? Why are they floating that? You heard Sliwa resisted. Why is he, and are Eric Adams' reasons for resisting it different?

Elizabeth Kim: Currently, polls show that Cuomo is on top, excluding Mamdani. Mamdani is on top, and then Cuomo comes after him. I think he is betting that he can stay ahead of the pack in polling. I think he's making that gamble that, "If I put out this offer, I am, in fact, going to stay ahead in the polling. I'm asking them to consolidate around me." All three men are running because they want to be mayor. They're also running and making the argument that none of these rivals are qualified to be mayor. You've heard Adams make this argument very strongly about Cuomo, and you just heard Sliwa make this argument very strongly about Adams and Cuomo.

It's a fight, this idea that they're going to be magnanimous and do this kind of consolidation. It's hard. It's very hard. We even saw that in the ranked choice primary that we just finished, that it's hard to come to consolidation. Now, Jim Walden can do it because if he's at 1%, he's basically conceding that he has no shot.

Brian Lehrer: Sliwa's line was landing with at least some of our listeners. One writes, "I'm voting for Zohran, much prefer Curtis Sliwa over Cuomo and Adams." Another one, "Wow, I am a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat and was an Adrienne Adams supporter. Between Adams being in Trump's pocket, Cuomo being a harasser and a bully, and Mamdani being way too idealistic and green to apply his high ideals effectively, I have to say, Sliwa is sounding surprisingly reasonable." That's a sample of two, which means basically nothing except that there are a couple of people out there who heard him in the way he wanted to be heard.

Elizabeth Kim: Yes. You reminded listeners that Sliwa was talking about the scandals around Adams and Cuomo. Curtis himself is not without scandal himself, as you pointed out to him in that very good last question.

Brian Lehrer: What would you say are his main policy differences with Adams and Cuomo, if you can point to any? I think Curtis was arguing effectiveness there on crime, on immigration, some other things, on clean government, on budgets, effectiveness, maybe not so much policy differences, unless you know more about what's there.

Elizabeth Kim: It's hard to say because he also talked a lot about compassion, and he talked about walking through NYCHA developments, and he talked about moments where you asked him about Donald Trump's cuts in federal funding, and would he stand up to them. Curtis does not come across as a MAGA candidate. It would not be in his interest to run that way because the mayor of New York City has to protect the interests of all New Yorkers, particularly those that are vulnerable to these cuts by Trump.

Brian Lehrer: When I gave him the chance, he didn't distance himself from Trump on anything in particular.

Elizabeth Kim: Yes. I think he wants to be careful about that. Although it's interesting, too, that Trump has not endorsed him. Trump has instead said some nice things about Eric Adams. He recently said that Cuomo should stay in the race. That tells you something about the strange bedfellows there, where the Republican president is basically lending vocal support to these two Democrats who are now running as independents in this race, but has said basically nothing about the Republican, the candidate in his own party.

Brian Lehrer: Trump has also said nice things about Sliwa, I think.

Elizabeth Kim: That may be the case. I don't know that he's formally come out and endorsed him.

Brian Lehrer: No, absolutely not.

Elizabeth Kim: Yes. That's interesting, I think.

Brian Lehrer: There's another thread of texts from different people on why Sliwa was being softer on Mamdani than Mamdani's other opponents. Listener writes, "Thought on why Sliwa went 'soft' on Mamdani. Republicans think any Democrat, whether it's Chuck Schumer, Biden, or Mamdani, are radical communists. Sliwa thinks it will be effective for his base to tie all of the Democrats and independents together." Another one like that. Well, this is down on my thread now, but let's see. Oh, yes. "Of course, he's not criticizing Mamdani. Republicans are delighted to have Mamdani to run against nationally."

That's interesting. I think to the first texter's point, if I did a Google search right now, Mary, maybe you can do a Google search right now. I'm talking to my producer. We could probably find Trump calling Kamala Harris a communist last year.

Elizabeth Kim: Probably. The thing about Trump that's interesting, though, is that he spends a lot of time criticizing Adams over the corruption indictment that he says that Trump basically got him off the hook for, which is also a tacit criticism of Trump. It's hard to see him as being a Trump candidate in that way because, if that is the core of his criticism, that Adams is beholden to Trump, what does that say about himself, who is the Republican candidate? Trump is the leader of his party.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. My guest for another few minutes is our political reporter, Elizabeth Kim. Let's also catch up on some of the Eric Adams news in the last day. Two not-good things for him unless they cause a pro-Adams backlash. Denial of matching funds by the Campaign Finance Board because he won't provide requested evidence showing his campaign in 2021 wasn't corrupt. Now his former interim police commissioner, Thomas Donlon, accusing him of corruption in how he ran the NYPD.

Let's start with the Donlon story. Sliwa had something to say about it, but most people don't know that name Thomas Donlon, because he was police commissioner for about five minutes. Who is he, and what is he alleging in this lawsuit?

Elizabeth Kim: Thomas Donlon was a former FBI investigator. He was appointed in one of the heights of chaos during Adams's tenure, and that was in September of last year after Adams's second police commissioner, Edward Caban, resigned because he was the target of a Federal Corruption Act probe involving himself and his brother, who was an ex-police officer working in the nightclub industry.

Donlon is appointed, and then in a weird twist, in that first week, his own home is searched for classified information as part of a federal investigation, the fate of which we don't know about. Then, like you said, he steps down weeks later. His whole tenure amounted to a matter of weeks. He steps down, and Adams hires Jessica Tisch.

Brian Lehrer: It sounds like, on some level, Donlon is sort of defending himself, not just attacking the mayor. Would he bother to file this? I was going to ask you, because he was personally harmed in some way in his claim, which it sounds like you're saying, as opposed to him just being a watchdog.

Elizabeth Kim: He didn't resign because he wanted to. He was an acting police commissioner, and there was a lot of talk about what was Adams going to do? He had come out and said toward the end that no, he wants this job, he wants to be in the running. That, ultimately, didn't happen. It's interesting. The timing of the lawsuit is interesting. I spoke to his lawyer yesterday, and it took a long time just to bring this suit because it's 250 pages, and there are a lot of allegations in it.

He is essentially saying that he never got a real chance to do this job because the mayor essentially enabled a group of high-ranking friends in the police department to override his power and enrich themselves in the process through promotions, raises, and overtime.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, results of that Google search. Thank you, Brian Lehrer Show senior producer Mary Croke. Plenty of examples of Trump calling Kamala Harris a communist last year. "She's a Marxist. She's a fascist." A quote from September 1 from the LA Times that says Trump claimed without a shred of evidence that Vice President Harris, whom he has dubbed Comrade Kamala, wants this country to go communist.

Another one from August last year, a Fox News interview. He called her and Governor Walz, her running mate, communist. He also called her Comrade Kamala and called her a communist on Truth Social and X. You could see that was a theme. Backing up one of the things that one of the texters--

Elizabeth Kim: That was Trump, but you notice that Curtis Sliwa is not going there. He just said a few minutes ago--

Brian Lehrer: With Mamdani.

Elizabeth Kim: Yes, with Mamdani. He's like, "This is nothing new. This is nothing to be afraid of. We disagree on policies." He's leaving it there. I don't know if he's going to change that soon, but I think it'll be hard, given what he's already said. I've heard him say that before.

Brian Lehrer: Further to that point, Ryan in Flatbush, you're on WNYC. Hi, Ryan.

Ryan: Hi, Brian. I'm wondering to look at the question you guys have been posing from the other direction. What is it that makes so much of the Democratic establishment so incapable of looking at Mamdani in this way? I mean, we heard Senator Gillibrand on your show recently go on what-- I'm a Muslim. To me, listening felt like a hate-filled meltdown. Very much reminiscent of my childhood growing up in this country under the Bush administration. What is it that makes them have this attitude towards Zohran, toward many Muslims in this country who support the Palestinian cause? If we're wondering, why is there not the hatred with Curtis Sliwa, why is there that apparent hatred coming from the other side?

Brian Lehrer: Ryan, thank you. Liz, anything on that? It's certainly easy to find Republicans who are hysterical, if that's the right word, about Zohran Mamdani, the prospect of him being mayor, different from Curtis Sliwa, the way at least he was presenting here. Yes, Gillibrand went so far on this show a few weeks ago that she wound up having to call Mamdani and apologize. That made follow-up news. There are others who would say, "Oh my God, we can't have this." That's an interesting distinction that the caller is pointing out.

Elizabeth Kim: Because elected officials like Gillibrand, like Adams, like Cuomo, they're establishment Democrats. Part of Zohran Mamdani's victory was saying that we are going to change the status quo because, as a Democratic socialist, he is not part of the Democratic establishment. That, in a way, is why there is this internal party panic versus-- Like you said, there are plenty of Republicans that are sowing panic-

Brian Lehrer: For sure.

Elizabeth Kim: -over Mamdani. It's interesting, but like I said, Curtis Sliwa has decided not to take that direction.

Brian Lehrer: Getting back to Adams for a minute, what about the Campaign Finance Board denying Adams public matching funds? Remind people what the matching funds program is and why Adams would normally qualify for some.

Elizabeth Kim: This is a program that is funded by taxpayers that rewards small-dollar donations in this eight-to-one match. If a candidate gets a qualifying donation of $250, that would be matched by $2,000. You can see how this is a great advantage of a candidate if they can qualify. The whole this program is to reward grassroots donations to have campaigns that are powered by people who live in the city, because that's one of the requirements of qualifying, is there have to be donations that are coming from New York City residents. This is a way of trying to get big money right out of races.

The fact that Adams has not been able to qualify is because he has had problems with his campaign. He has had campaign finance scandals. In fact, that was the center of the corruption indictment was he was taking illegal campaign donations from foreign officials, specifically Turkish officials.

Brian Lehrer: How much does this hurt Adams in terms of his ability to be competitive, at least in the spending race with so many candidates?

Elizabeth Kim: It's a great disadvantage. I mean, he has around over $3 million on the line that is being withheld to him and that he is suing over. The one thing, though, that has come to light in recent days is that the recent filings show that the mayor has been prolific at raising money. He doesn't have to qualify for this program. He can elect to just go ahead and raise as much money as he wants. Like I said, being able to have your small-dollar donations matched in this way is a huge advantage. It's like, basically, for every dollar, you get $8.

Brian Lehrer: All right. We're going to leave it there for today with our political reporter, Elizabeth Kim. Never a dull moment for you on the beat. Obviously, we're going to continue to talk about the race over and over and over again, and keep following new developments and keep looking at issues.

Starting in September, we're going to have our 30 Issues in 30 days series, which we do in many election seasons. We're going to take an issue a day. Many in the New York City mayoral race, many in the New Jersey governor's race, and analyze the candidates' differences. This is in addition to continuing to interview the candidates. For this week, we've had Jim Walden and Curtis Sliwa. The others, we have every reason to believe, are going to continue coming on.

Liz, thank you for coming on over and over again this week. We really appreciate it.

Elizabeth Kim: My pleasure, Brian.

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