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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Who at some point or another has wanted to be more outgoing than you are, more generous than you are, maybe a little less neurotic, however you define that? Changing these aspects can feel insurmountable. It's just who you are. In her new book, Olga Khazan, staff writer at the Atlantic, went on a year long quest to fine tune her personality, or at least to try. Turns out she discovered there are five key traits that are on a sliding scale and they're measurable. Through her research, she discovered that you can alter these traits. Yes, you can. By consistently behaving in ways that align with the person you'd like to be. This new book is called, Me, But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change. Hi, Olga. Welcome back to WNYC.

Olga Khazan: Hi. Thanks so much for having me.

Brian: I'm just going to list these five factors so listeners know what they are that you say personality consists of, scientifically extroversion, conscientiousness, agreeableness, openness, and neuroticism. Do you want to talk about any one of those as an example of how you think they can be measured?

Olga: Extroversion is one that might resonate with people. I think we all know what an extrovert is versus an introvert. For me, I really wanted to increase my levels of extroversion because really even acting in an extroverted way occasionally can actually make you happier. When I took this science based personality test, it showed me that my levels of extroversion were very, very low. By pushing myself to get out there more, interact more with other people and do more activities, I was actually able to increase my levels of extroversion.

Brian: We should say you embarked on this years long project to fine tune your personality and you used a free questionnaire to periodically assess your progress. You want to tell us briefly about the questionnaire? This isn't the Myers-Briggs test that a lot of listeners might be familiar with, right?

Olga: No, it's not the Myers-Briggs. It's actually a different type of test. It's called the Five Factor Personality test. I actually used a website called personalityassessor.com that was designed by a professor of psychology. These are just tests that measure where you fall on these five factors of personality. It'll ask you questions like whether you enjoy parties, whether you enjoy poetry. Based on your responses to these, it'll tell you where you fall along each of these five factors.

Brian: We'll keep going through some of these with Olga Khazan and her experience of trying to change her personality and how she tried and how successful she was, and why should we try to change our personalities anyway. Listeners, have any of you tried to fine tune certain personality traits? Tell us your story. 212-433-WNYC. What did you set out to change about yourself?

How did you go about it and how did it work out? 212-433-WNYC on extroversion as an example. Have you tried to get out of your comfort zone to become more social? Maybe you wanted to be more generous? Another one of these traits or self discipline? Tell us your story and what worked for you or didn't, or just ask Olga a question. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692.

You write in the book, each trait has different benefits, but some of the benefits are surprisingly substantial, accounting for a large percentage of life satisfaction, professional success, and even longevity. You use conscientiousness, one of those five variables, as case in point in your book. You want to walk us through that one and how significant you think it may be to any of those happiness measures?

Olga: Conscientiousness is a good example of how changing your personality can actually make you happier and healthier. Conscientious people do tend to be healthy because conscientiousness involves eating right, exercising, not overindulging, being productive, being organized, making time to cook and things like that.

Of course, none of us can be like this all the time, but the people who take tend to do it more tend to be healthier. Conscientiousness can actually increase your longevity. It also really has an impact on work. You can get more done at work. You can get a big raise or a promotion if you're very conscientious. That's a trait. That's a good example of why you would want to change your personality.

Brian: On extroversion, you write that studies show that extroverts are happier. I know some introverts out there listening are going to disagree with that and say, "Look, I'm perfectly fine only interacting as much as I want or need to interact." What's this correlation that you found between how-- You might want to define extroversion because it's not always what people think it is, between how many friends or it's really how much interaction you want to have.

Olga: The connection between extraversion and happiness really comes down to social connection, because social connection is really one of those things that fuels our happiness. We're social creatures. Even if we're super introverted, we need people in our lives who support us and understand us.

If you are super introverted and not interested in being really outgoing or being the life of the party, one thing you could do is just spend more time around people, but not necessarily be talking that whole time. You could just listen more than you talk. You could participate in a group volunteer effort or something that doesn't involve a ton of conversation but is still a social outing, that still counts as extroversion.

Brian: Matt on Staten island, you're on WNYC. Hi, Matt.

Matt: Hi. I just wanted to say, I've tried to change my behaviors to be more extroverted over the years, and it didn't really work. Then I found out I had a condition called Asperger's which greatly impacts your social abilities. I found that after I started talking to other people with the same condition, it was more enjoyable to be social. I guess for an example, there was one person who was just talking my ear off, and I just got to stare at my dinner plate, and that was actually very pleasant. Whereas typically, I would usually feel very awkward and just couldn't wait to get away.

Brian: Because they were letting you be who you are. Is that one way to put it?

Matt: I suppose so. The healthy behaviors of an extrovert, I feel, are almost impossible for someone like me. It was nice to just get to not have to do the eye contact and all that thing. In some ways, I feel more extroverted while still being an introvert.

Brian: Matt, thank you very much. Here's another one, maybe somewhat related. Garfield in Hackensack, you're on WNYC. Hello, Garfield.

Garfield: Hello. Thanks for taking my call. It is somewhat related. I'm an instructor, and I'm usually very introverted, but in order to make money, I have to teach. Beyond learning the material and being able to learn it well enough to teach, the fact of getting up in front of people on a regular basis who are new each time allows me to explore different sides of myself when I know the material enough to actually start to express myself in an introverted way.

I just want to say that it's lucky if someone who's introverted finds a job or vocation where they get to express themselves. They're forced into it, and they actually start maybe enjoying it and finding freedom in doing that work.

Brian: Garfield, thank you so much for that story. It goes to an underlying thing that I think is in your book, Olga. You referred to it early in the segment, but you wrote about the common phrase, "Fake it till you make it." It seems like what you were saying at the beginning, correct me if I misinterpreted you, is that you start to act like the person you want to be on these five personality trait measures. Y

ou start to act more extroverted, even if you don't feel it. You start to act more conscientious, even if you don't feel you would have done that spontaneously, more agreeable, more open, and you just intentionally start to do those things, and then theoretically, they start to become more of who you actually are. Is that the essence of your book?

Olga: Yes. That's exactly right. When you first start doing any of these things, if you're a hardened introvert and you start leading a group at work, it's going to feel really unnatural and uncomfortable. After you do it enough as the previous caller mentioned, you're going to start to get better and better at it. You might even start to enjoy it a little bit. Then having that experience of doing that over and over again, it'll actually become part of your personality. You'll start to see yourself that way as someone who is maybe even a little bit extroverted, naturally.

Brian: Let's take another call with another story, I think. Alessandro in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Alessandro.

Alessandro: Hey, how's it going? Thanks for taking the call. As they say to Brian in New York City, you're the treasurer of the city. Thank you so much for all your work you've done. Love the work you do.

Brian: Thank you.

Alessandro: I just wanted to say how for years, I actually worked in academia. I also even worked in sales in the past before that. That requires more of an extroverted personality and somebody who's really open and constantly wants to discuss and write. However, I really needed to change my life. Hated staring at the screen, and so I became a carpenter.

To become a carpenter from that world, not only do I have to change my physical body to doing something that I always love doing in carpentry, but my mindset. I needed to change from being those kinds of qualities to being more Meticulous and like you said, neurotic and more quiet. I needed to learn a lot more and I need to approach how I talk to people differently as well.

My past experience has definitely helped with what I'm doing now. Now that I tapped into this different type of self, it really, really helped me grow as a person.

Brian: It's such an interesting change from academia to carpenter. Olga, since you wrote the book on this topic, is there anything you, as a journalist, I'm putting you on the spot. You can say no. Want to ask Alessandro?

Olga: I'm wondering how you actually learned the tools of carpentry. Like how were you able to get good at it? What did you rely on in order to learn those new skills?

Alessandro: There's definitely things that I grew up with which helped me be introduced to it and really like that. I needed to read books, of course, I needed to go online and look at every single YouTube tutorial, DIY video to really do what I'm doing.

Really what changed me the most is actually just spending time with other professionals and really allowing myself to adapt to their lifestyle. Maybe not realize what's negative and don't go deep into those negatives of their personalities, but there's so much that I was able to change solely by just being around those kinds of people, without a doubt.

Brian: Alessandro, thank you very much for your story. Wow. What would you say to someone, Olga, who thinks people shouldn't be trying to change their personalities this much? They should be working more on accepting who they are and judging themselves less?

Olga: I think you can definitely accept who you are and not judge yourself, but see the tools of personality change as a way to grow who you are and to become even better. That's why the book is really called, Me, But Better, because even I, who I take a really critical approach toward myself in the book, I have personality traits that I like about myself.

I'm very conscientious and I'm very open to experiences and I didn't try to change those things about myself. What I really wanted to do is to use the tools of personality change so I could get more out of life so that I could enjoy my life more and appreciate what I have. I think that's an act of self love and self acceptance.

Brian: Interestingly, it seems to be the introvert-extrovert scale that's really pushing a lot of callers buttons. Let's hear another one about that one. Evelyn in Mendham, you're on WNYC. Hi, Evelyn.

Evelyn: Hey, Brian. Longtime listener, sustainer. Love your programming. This is a great, great topic of discussion. I am totally an extrovert, but my friend, Robin is an introvert. We both work in fitness. The minute she would strap on a microphone and step in front of a room full of people, she would shine like the sun. You put her in a room like at a party, and she would fade into the wallpaper.

I think for a lot of introverts, they need to find something that turns them on, and then they can shine when they want to. Then when they need to pull back and turn off and recharge their batteries, they can. I think some of us ride that spectrum a little bit of both. Go introverts, do your thing, shine your shine, do your thing. I love it. I think it's great.

Brian: Evelyn, thank you very much. Any thought on that, Olga?

Olga: Absolutely. It sounds like she's describing this concept called free traits. One of the people I interviewed for the book is actually a professor who's very introverted, but it's very important to him to be an engaging teacher and to present to his classes in a very animated and engaging way. He does, he becomes very extroverted for that period of time that he's teaching. That sounds very similar to what her friend is doing. That's also a form of personality change is switching up your traits depending on the situation.

Brian: Me, But Better, the title of your book, this isn't about being a people pleaser and changing your personality because other people want you to. This is about making yourself happier if you're unhappy with certain things.

Olga: Exactly. I just wrote a newsletter post about this. People will probably like the new you better, but more importantly, you'll like the new you better and you'll get more out of life.

Brian: Here's an interesting question from a listener in a text asking, I'm just going to summarize it, if these five personality traits have been looked at as a basis for political leaning.

Olga: They have, yes. Great question. Openness to experiences, which is one of the personality traits, high levels of that is correlated with political liberalism.

Brian: That one in particular. Any others?

Olga: No, mostly that one because that is the one where you are very open to whatever, you're very creative, you are okay with new trends and new ideas, the classic thing of conservatives like standing athwart history yelling, stop. People who are open to experiences do not agree with that at all.

Brian: Let's see. Do we have time for one more? I'll read a text because we're going to run out of time rather than take a call. Another text says, I'm wondering if striving for one trait would take away from another trait that was positive in your "previous self" or maybe how to conquer a fear of that.

Olga: The traits don't really work that way where one takes away from the other, so you can definitely grow any of the traits without sacrificing the ones that you're already working on. I would say to use your strengths in order to build on the things that you want to accomplish. If you're really conscientious, use that to become, say, more extroverted.

Brian: Olga Khazan is staff writer at the Atlantic and author of the new book, Me, But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change. Thanks so much for coming on. Congratulations on the book.

Olga: Thank you so much.

Brian: That's the Brian Lehrer Show for today. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned for Alison.

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