Title: Call Your Senator: Sen. Andy Kim on the Shutdown and More

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Brian: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. We'll keep covering day one of the partial government shutdown, to begin today. Political gridlock in Washington, about 750,000 federal workers to be furloughed, according to an estimate from the Congressional Budget Office. Many government services are in question. We'll get into some of those. The Democrats are making proposed health care cuts the centerpiece of their objections. It's happening today, in case you don't know the context, because today, October 1st, is the start of the federal government's fiscal year.

We have Senator Andy Kim with us, Democrat from New Jersey. As many of you know, he comes on once a month for a Call Your Senator segment. My questions and yours, especially if you're a New Jersey constituent, though anyone may call right now on the government shutdown, primarily today, but with maybe a few other things, too. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, you can call and you can text. Senator, we always appreciate when you come on with us. Welcome back to WNYC.

Senator Andy Kim: Thanks for having me back on.

Brian: Before we talk shutdown politics, can you give your constituents and other listeners a sense of what is actually shut down, what government services and employees are immediately affected in New Jersey, or generally?

Senator Andy Kim: Look, what I'll say is that we're still getting details on how the Trump administration is trying to operate this, but as you said, about 750,000 federal workers furloughed. We're seeing a bulk of that in the education department, commerce, labor, state department, ag department. We're still getting a sense of this. At least in New Jersey, we got several military bases. I'm going to be talking to some of the commanders there later on to get a sense of this, but many of them will continue working.

None of them are going to be getting paid, and this is going to add a lot of strain and stress upon federal employees. I used to be a career civil servant at the federal government. I've worked through multiple shutdowns before. I'm very worried about how that's going to impact. For the broader public, mail will continue to be delivered, Social Security checks will continue to go out, taxes continue to be processed, though we've seen delays in past shutdowns.

There are some real concerns that I have. For instance, the Homeland Security, the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agencies, being furloughed 65%. 65% of workers there being furloughed, which I worry about our ability to keep readiness and be able to stand up against these different threats that we face. There are some real places here where I very much question the Trump administration's judgment in terms of how they're operating on this.

Brian: You mentioned Social Security checks will still go out. Also, just to reassure people, if this is accurate, Medicare and Medicaid coverage remain in effect, as do VA health services for veterans?

Senator Andy Kim: Yes, that's right. Also, for those that are doing air travel, the air traffic controllers are continuing to operate. Again, they're not being paid, but we've seen some delays in the past when it comes to security checks through TSA at airports. Just please monitor just the websites of the airports to get the latest updates, but we're trying to see how we can try to minimize some of the challenges for the broader American people.

Brian: I read that ICE agents are among those expected to work without pay for now. Do you expect a reduction in deportation detentions?

Senator Andy Kim: I don't know at this point. Homeland Security is one of the departments that has had the least number of furloughs. That's certainly something that really shows where President Trump's agenda is. While we're in a school year, the fact that the Education Department's being furloughed 87% and Homeland Security only 5%, I think it very much shows where their prioritization is.

Look, this is where they were heading towards, even without a shutdown. They already talked about abolishing Department of Education. They already talked about turning ICE into one of the basically the largest militarized operations in the world. These are the challenges that we're facing, and this is the reality of this lawlessness of this President and this administration.

Brian: Listeners, one of the tracks you can call or text us on is if you're a furloughed federal worker or one who's expected to work without being paid or anyone else directly affected. You can call and describe your situation or ask Senator Andy Kim a government shutdown question. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Listeners, if you're a Democrat, what do you want the senator or others in his party to do next? If you're a Republican, what do you want the members of Congress in your party or the President to do next? 212-433-WNYC.

If you're an independent and feel caught in the middle, what do you want anybody to do next? 212-433-9692. All right. Now to the politics of the shutdown endgame last night, Senator Kim. As the AP describes it on NJ.com, "Republicans supported a short-term measure to fund the government generally at current levels through November 21st, but Democrats blocked it, insisting the measure addressed their concerns on health care." What are your concerns on health care?

Senator Andy Kim: Look, right now, starting today and over the next couple of days, we're going to have thousands of people, hundreds of thousands of people across New Jersey, millions of people across the country, getting their new bill for health care going forward, and it's going to be catastrophic. We're talking about the number of people in New Jersey, hundreds of thousands, that could see upwards of doubling their health care premiums. We estimate upwards of 75,000--

Brian: Just for clarity, you're talking about people who get their health insurance through the Obamacare Marketplace exchanges?

Senator Andy Kim: The Marketplace will be the worst. We are estimating about over 20 million Americans will potentially see upwards of doubling of their health care premiums up 4.5 million, losing their health care because of this increase. It's not just the Marketplace, you're going to see increases across the board, including with those that have private insurance. This is getting out of control. We know it's happening starting today. This is not something that can be punted to Thanksgiving because the open enrollment starts on November 1st.

This is the month that families are making decisions about what kind of care they, and they need to know with clarity that the federal government is responding to be able to help them at a time when these tariffs are increasing costs for so many families, other types of challenges that they're facing with rising health care costs, which is particularly bad in the in the New York, New Jersey area. This is something that is necessary and cannot be waited. The fact that my Republican colleagues say, "Oh, we'll get to that in December," it just shows how out of touch they are, honestly. They don't understand what the average person is going through that is worried about their care.

I'll just tell you one thing: I did a town hall directly after the vote yesterday. I did a town hall right after the votes, and we had 6,000 people dial into this thing across New Jersey. The number of people that I heard from, they were telling me-- There's a woman named Lucinda, who's telling me that she just simply cannot afford her health care if the premiums and the subsidy support goes away. That's what people are facing. This is a cliff and a disaster we knew was coming, and just Trump and others, not only are they not paying attention to it, they've been actively taking actions that are denying this kind of support going forward. I'm outraged by it, and people should be furious.

Brian: The premium support for Obamacare policies wouldn't entirely go away. Here's a pro-Republican take on that from National Review. It says, "Joe Biden used COVID-era spending bills as an excuse to expand Obamacare subsidies to help cover the skyrocketing premiums caused by the onerous regulations of the national health care law. Those enhanced subsidies were supposed to be temporary and were set to expire at the end of 2025. Democrats want them extended." Your reaction to that, especially the idea that all that's being rolled back is expansions to Obamacare subsidies that were implemented during the pandemic and intended to be temporary?

Senator Andy Kim: Look, you think about this in the greater context, which is that the Republicans just passed this reconciliation bill that was the largest cut to health care in American history. With this major assault upon Medicaid, Medicare, and other health care costs that are out there, we have to take it into that consideration, that this is something where people are being squeezed on a number of levels. For those that are losing their care, the Marketplace, the ACA, is where they can turn to.

What we see right now is just, again, a callousness from the Republicans in terms of just the struggles that real people are facing. Again, you heard that on the town hall, people talking about being in families with someone with a disability in their families, and they're concerned about the Medicaid cuts. They're trying to figure out what they might be able to use from the Marketplace to supplement, but then with the premium going up and skyrocketing, doubling, that's something that they're going to be left out in the dark on.

This is something that the Republicans know. They don't want to talk about it, and I think that that's just something I want to really hit home here. With these negotiations here, they're not negotiations because the Republicans in the House of Representatives didn't even bother to show up to work this week. I am here at the Capitol right now. I've been here trying to find the abilities and negotiate and show the American people that we're trying our best to keep the government open.

Speaker Johnson just told the House Republicans to go on vacation. You were just talking to me, Brian, about how all these federal workers, including our military, they're not getting paid starting today. You want to know who is getting paid? The President of the United States and members of Congress. They're the only ones in the government right now that are getting paid.

The fact that these House Republicans are taking a vacation right now, they're not even here in DC, and they're getting paid, I will be honest with you, that is offensive. It's just something that I find so ridiculous about this situation, which is why I've decided to forego my pay. As long as this shutdown is happening, I don't think we should be treated any differently because the American people look at this, and it just looks like we're playing with other people's chips. That's exactly what the House Republicans are doing right now.

Brian: The argument in the National Review article that I cited, the part of it that said, "The extra subsidies for Obamacare policies were to help cover skyrocketing premiums caused by the onerous regulations of the national health care law." It's true that premiums for people getting health insurance on the marketplaces were meaningfully going up. Yes? Were there problems with regulations in the law that needed to be addressed, in your opinion?

Senator Andy Kim: There's always things that we can make more effective and efficient, but the things that the Republicans are saying are onerous restrictions are things like being able to provide preventative care and being able to provide maternal care support and other requirements that were put into place to make sure that people were getting the kind of care that they need, that they're not getting these junk plans that are basically just catastrophic emergency, high deductible plans, that they actually have something that is going to be able to provide them with care.

The Republicans consider that onerous restrictions. I disagree. I think that that's basic coverage that we need to make sure is there. That is a place where, again, we see where the Republicans are coming at, just constantly trying to hollow out health care for Americans. Again, let's keep in mind where they put their resources when they were cutting health care, when they did the largest cut to health care in American history earlier this year, that money didn't go back to trying to lower the deficit or anything. It went to paying tax cuts to the billionaires and the richest corporations in America right now. That's where the wealth transfer happened to.

Brian: Listener writes, "My daughter and her husband run a small business. My son is a gig worker, has three different jobs, relied on the Marketplace for insurance, which has been very difficult to obtain with decent coverage. Now they're facing tremendous increases in their premiums. This is the lower working class getting affected by the cuts," writes that one listener from personal experience. Ben in Washington Township, New Jersey, you're on WNYC with Senator Andy Kim. Hello, Ben.

Ben: Hello. Long-time listener, first-time caller. Thanks for having me on. My question was, with the jobs numbers being so bad, that Trump ended up firing the statisticians who compiled the jobs numbers, how will the federal workers not being paid or furloughed, how will this shutdown at large affect the economic growth or worsen the economic growth shown in those numbers? Is our GDP going to be hurt by this?

Senator Andy Kim: Thanks, Ben. I appreciate you mentioning it. First and foremost, for the workers, as I said, I was career government civil servant. I worked under two different shutdowns, had to work both times, didn't get paid, and it was hard for me to be able to make ends meet, and it was early in my career. What we saw last time around, remember, Trump was the President when the longest shutdown in American history happened back in 2018/2019. We had service members at our joint military base that were having to go to food pantries.

That's the reality of the situation, that is just so tragic, and why it is that I just find this absolutely absurd that we can't find a solution, and that the Republicans here in Congress didn't even show up to do their job this week. When it comes to the broader economy, what we've seen in past shutdowns is if we're able to try to find an agreement and be able to have an off-ramp on the earlier side, we haven't seen any significant long-term damages. If this gets protracted, if the Republicans really just dig in their heels and just choose not to engage on this healthcare crisis that we're in, I do worry about what confidence is.

Our economy, by a lot of measures, has done well, but if you look at it, where the inequality is, it's doing well for those that have a lot, but it's really not doing well for those that are not. Right now, in our country, two-thirds of the wealth in our nation belong to the top 10%. That means that for the bottom 50%, they're getting about 3% of the wealth. About the 50 wealthiest families in America right now own about as much wealth as the bottom 50% of Americans, 170 million people, about the same as the top 50 families. Yes, we're going to have a lot of challenges when it comes to different families out there, but they're already struggling right now. We already have an economy that's not delivering for everybody.

Brian: Listener, skeptical of the Democrats' position on this, writes, "Why is a balanced budget not discussed at all?"

Senator Andy Kim: Fair. I think that's exactly the point we're saying when it comes to the Republicans were trying to do with the healthcare cuts, that they weren't trying to bring down the deficit of the debt. They're just giving these tax cuts to the billionaires and the big corporations. Look, Washington definitely has not been prioritizing that type of fiscal responsibility. Certainly, coming out of the pandemic, continued challenges we're having with the economy, I certainly see where some of that support is needed, but more broadly, I'm prepared to have that conversation. This is not an administration that's had any interest in trying to balance the budget or talk about fiscal responsibility.

Brian: I was reading from that National Review article. Here's their take on the politics of the shutdown, and I think you might agree with part of this. They write, "What the shutdown talk is really about is that Schumer is under heavy pressure from his base to demonstrate the Democrats are willing to take the fight to Trump, responding to the progressive criticism that they are flailing about as Trump imposes his will. They just view healthcare spending as the best pretext." Do you agree with any of that?

Senator Andy Kim: No, I don't. Again, this town hall that I did yesterday, I heard from people who are really scared about what comes next, really concerned, and I understand them. From my own standpoint, I have a father whose healthcare is diminishing every single day rapidly, and I'm worried about his care. I'm worried about my family's ability to afford his care. I'm saddened that the question I have to ask is not, "What is the best care I can provide for my dad?" It's, "What is the best care I can provide for my dad that I can afford, that my family can afford?"

There are many families suffering much more than that. This is real. What I heard in terms of just the agony in people's voices last night in this town hall is real, and I get it. I understand where the person is coming from, because when you look at it from outside, it just looks like it's just this power struggle between two parties, it just looks like a political game, and as I said, it feels like it's the people who are playing with other people's chips. I understand that.

I ask people really to try to recognize that people are going to really struggle. 4.5 million people lose their healthcare by the end of this year. If we have 20-some million people having to pay nearly double what they're paying right now, that's going to be catastrophic, and I hope that people focus in on that.

Brian: On this idea, though, that's in that National Review paragraph about this being largely about Schumer under heavy pressure from his base to demonstrate that Democrats are willing to take the fight to Trump, as they put it, here's a text from a listener that says, "I'm a registered Democrat and my partner is a federal worker. At this point, to say I'm disappointed with the Democratic Party leadership would be a gross understatement."

"The absolute embarrassment of the meeting at the White House around the funding legislation and the White House's racist response afterwards are just the latest example of Dems treating the current state of affairs as business as usual, when they're anything but normal. It just seems the Democrats are not prepared to meet the moment as we barrel toward fascism," in the words of that listener.

The argument there is, and even the National Review seemed to reflect that Democratic base members feel this way, that you should be making the public shutdown rationale much broader, that it's about democracy and authoritarianism, and Trump imposed inflation through the tariffs, many of which might be illegal in ways that you would argue, and health policy in addition to funding, health policy being taken over by unscientific vaccine and other conspiracy theories. Your reaction to that, that this is actually too narrow a fight to pick, and it might be too easy for the Republicans to compromise on this, and then go on with business as usual, in ignoring the really epic issues of our times.

Senator Andy Kim: I think through this a lot. Like I said, when we were going through the reconciliation bill, it wasn't just about the health care cuts that were happening, it was the why are they happening. The why that was happening is that, again, they're giving these tax cuts to the billionaires and the biggest corporations. It was this wealth transfer. It was just clearly stealing money out of the pockets of working families. We do see this broader lawlessness that is out there. We see and hear, and we witness it with our own eyes, these attacks upon the First Amendment, attacks upon our Constitution.

When Speaker Johnson says that they're negotiating good faith, even though they're not even here in DC, they're not negotiating good faith, because while we're having this discussion about the budget, Speaker Johnson just sat on his hands for a month while Trump was pushing this $5 billion rescission through that just goes into effect now. Trump can just do whatever he wants, even though the Constitution clearly says that Congress is where the authority to set the national budget remains.

Speaker Johnson and Leader Thune, they've basically just become cabinet members in Trump's administration rather than actually a separate branch of government. Yes, I'm outraged by that. I'm outraged by just the lawlessness that we see and the abdication of leadership and dereliction of duty of Republicans in Congress that have the gavel to be able to do that.

Look, in New Jersey, we have an election coming up. I hope the people in New Jersey see just the brokenness that comes and the failure of governance that comes with Republican leadership. I hope that we can continue to keep this pressure on and build momentum and that movement towards retaking control of Congress next year. That is the process, but in the meantime, we do need to stand and fight and to be able to do everything we can to stand up against this lawlessness.

Right now, we see that, first and foremost, with this effort to push forward a partisan budget that is something that is going to have no assurances that Trump isn't going to just do whatever he wants, as we got Russell Vought in the OMB, who I think, alongside Stephen Miller, are the two most dangerous people in this administration. We have to stand up and expose the corruption that is rampant throughout this administration, that we see from a President at the top profiting off of the Oval Office.

That is something that I think Americans, very clearly, can see and stand against when the President of the United States has made billions of dollars in the few months that he's been President. How much money have you made? How much money have we made? We see that just rampant corruption on an industrial level, and that is something that worries me.

Brian: More on this track, similar to the texter, because we're getting several calls like this, Kamal in Scarsdale, you're on WNYC with Senator Andy Kim. Hello.

Kamal: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. Similar to the text earlier, my question for the Senator is the following, because he's used the word lawless several times in this conversation. The question is, if the administration is indeed lawless, as he claims, and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with that, but the question is, then again, why define the fight so narrowly as healthcare subsidies?

Now, I agree, healthcare is very important, but I would say having a lawful presidency is an order of magnitude more important than something as small as the healthcare subsidy, which are expiring, as important as they may be on their own, tut they don't pose an existential threat to the country. Whereas, according to him, the administration is lawless, and nothing is being done about it. That, I believe, is an existential threat to the USA.

Brian: Senator?

Senator Andy Kim: Look, I agree. Look, the push and the focal point has been healthcare, but we've also been and has raised the issues about these rescissions, about these decisions that the President has made that are violating the Constitution. It is an argument that we have widened, and we are talking about it as showing that this is an example of where the President has erred in terms of just how damaging it is to the American people. It's a message that we are trying to build a wide coalition to be able to mobilize and to be able to bring in the American people to understand.

After what we saw with the reconciliation bill, after we saw just the movement that was standing up to be able to protect Medicaid, I do think that there's power in that. I ran for Congress in 2018. I ran during the midterms of Trump's first term. Back then, there was a Trump in the White House and Republicans controlling the House and the Senate, and I saw and ran that campaign. I know and saw how it is to try to mobilize that wide coalition to mobilize people on the ground.

I do think that being able to have healthcare as a central component, while also showing that the reason why your healthcare is going up, the reason why you're struggling to be able to pay the bills is because of the rampant corruption that is out there, that we see the special interest, we see the giveaways to the corporations, we see the revolving door of billionaires going in and out of the Oval Office with their gifts to this authoritarianism that we see creeping into this country. That is the story that we're pushing, and that is what we're trying to raise up.

I hope people agree with that approach of showing that the resources that are being taken out of people's pockets, where affordability was so clearly the biggest issue on the campaign last year, and we saw it with the electorate, when we're trying to reach out to the voters that, frankly, are just so disgusted and dejected by politics, we need to make sure that we're bringing them into the fold. I think that this strategy and this approach is one that's going to work.

Brian: Now, I've been relaying calls and texts from people who want your party to do more. There's an argument on the other side that I think goes back to what Senator Schumer's rationale was in the spring. For example, President Trump now is threatening not just furloughs during the shutdown, but major permanent layoffs. Here's a little bit of Trump in the last day.

President Trump: A lot of good can come down from shutdowns. We can get rid of a lot of things that we didn't want, and they'd be Democrat things, but they want open borders, they want men playing in women's sports, they want transgender for everybody. They'll never stop--

Brian: Now, the particular things that he cited, I think, are things that they were doing anyway, but that rationale, "we can do a lot of good things during a shutdown," is why minority leader Schumer ducked a government shutdown at the last deadline in March. He would say not that he was weak and the party was rolling over, but that the actual harm President Trump could do to the American people with the context of a shutdown would be so bad from a Democrat standpoint, and there's no way the minority party could stop him. Do you think the context is different now?

Senator Andy Kim: Yes. Look, we still know that Trump can do a lot of damage. As he and Russell Vought have said, they are planning to do mass firings. We know that they were doing that all along. They've already fired hundreds of thousands of federal workers. The budget that they're trying to ram through in a partisan way would lay off hundreds of thousands of federal workers.

What they're saying is not surprising, but just the tone of it, honestly, I think it's going to backfire on them in the same way that Speaker Johnson, they're not bothering to show up on the Republican side in the House, because they don't want to deal with the Epstein files. Speaker Johnson's more concerned about keeping his job rather than protecting the jobs of hundreds of thousands of federal workers. I do think that this is going to backfire on them in terms of just how it's unfolding.

Right now, again, what we've seen is the challenges that we faced in the judiciary, the Supreme Court continuing to enable this President to weaken our Constitution. Essentially, at this point, right now, we do not have three functioning, equal, and separate branches of government. We have one branch, the executive, trying to dominate the other two. That is something, at some point, we got to say, we're drawing the line here.

We are saying, right now, we have limited abilities to be able to really hold the feet to the fire. This is one, and we will want to use this to really show the American people what is happening, to get their attention, and show them that this is wrong, especially that it's going to be real harm. This is not just theoretical about just trying to protect institutions of democracy, real people's lives are at stake.

Brian: One more on this track, and then I'm going to want to ask you about one or two other things before you go. Laura in the Bronx has a suggestion for what she wants you and the party to do next. Laura, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Laura: Thank you very much. Senator Kim, you're great. I'm 100% with you. I was 100% with your sentiments when the first reconciliation act was passed by Schumer, who I think is weak, and I think the Democratic Party did roll over. I see this as a much larger issue as many other people have said. Health care may be your flag issue, but I'm really concerned and fearful about the militarization of cities, about the loss of freedom of speech, about persecution of minorities and fringe groups, about a war on American cities and citizens, and the lawless destruction of constitutional rights. I see crony capitalism, I see abuse of executive power.

Brian: Laura, I'm going to jump in only because we've gone through what a lot of people who agree with you see. I took your call because you're going to ask him to do something, right?

Laura: Senator Kim, I would like you to go into the streets. I would like to see Senator Schumer waving a placard and closing the Capitol with hundreds of thousands of people who would join him. I would like every senator, every Democratic senator, to shut down the bases of power. I'd like you to shut down Wall Street in New York. I'd like you to shut down Albany in New York. I would like cities in every state in this country to protest in the streets because that's what it's going to take [inaudible 00:31:54]. That's what I have to say.

Brian: Laura, thank you very much.

Senator Andy Kim: Laura, thank you.

Brian: We had a listener the other day who suggested that the Democratic Party should call for a general strike, which is kind of what Laura is saying. Your response?

Senator Andy Kim: Look, one thing that's become very clear to me is that down here in DC, amongst leaders here, there is no Republican Party anymore. It's been completely taken over by Trump. He is dictating it now. It is not some organization. It is just simply at his beck and call. I see it by how fearful a lot of my Republican colleagues are in the Senate to do anything that would go across with him because they know that he could just single-handedly end their careers.

When you're going up against something that's not a political party, you can't just think about it in terms of traditional political tools. This is not a normal time. This is not something that we should be thinking as just business as usual. This is a constitutional crisis that we're in. With what I've seen in the past, the work that I did, my first job in politics was as a community organizer, I believe deeply that this is a moment that isn't just for political action. It's for movement building.

This is a time when we need to build a national movement to be able to stand up against what Trump has, which is a movement of his own. Again, he is not just a political leader. He is, unfortunately, a movement leader of his own movement that, unfortunately, is aimed at dismantling so much of the democracy that our founding fathers have and since have upheld for 250 years as we approach our anniversary.

Yes, I do believe deeply in that. What I was doing in New Jersey when I was taking on the machine politics and trying to reform it, I had the entirety of the political establishment standing up against me, but what we were able to do to overcome it was build a grassroots movement to mobilize. The tools that we need, going through not just the next few days and weeks, but the next three years onwards, because we know it's going to be a long path to heal in this country, is going to require more than just the tools available in the Capitol, more than just in DC. It's going to really require that national movement. I very much understand the sentiments of what people have been saying here.

Brian: Before you go, in our last few minutes, I want to touch on one or two other things. With your background at the Pentagon and the State Department, I want to get your reaction to a few things from this meeting yesterday that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth called of hundreds of top military leaders, admirals, and generals, mostly at Quantico, Virginia. Here's a clip of Hegseth on a culture war track.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth: This administration has done a great deal from day one to remove the social justice, politically correct, and toxic ideological garbage that had infected our department, to rip out the politics. No more identity months, DEI offices, dudes in dresses. No more climate change worship, no more division, distraction, or gender delusions, no more debris. As I've said before and will say again, we are done with that [inaudible 00:35:18].

Brian: We had to bleep that last word there, as you could tell. A little more on this track.

Senator Andy Kim: Oh.

Brian: No, here's a little more of Hegseth. Here's the clip.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth: No more beardos. The era of rampant and ridiculous shaving profiles is done.

Brian: Here's a clip of Hegseth about military readiness based on a single standard for fitness, as he describes it.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth: Today, at my direction, each service will ensure that every requirement for every combat MOS, for every designated combat arms position, returns to the highest male standard only, because this job is life or death. Standards must be met and not just met, at every level, we should seek to exceed the standard, to push the envelope, to compete.

Brian: He mentioned male standard, but then he added.

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth: If women can make it excellent, if not, it is what it is. If that means no women qualify for some combat jobs, so be it. That is not the intent, but it could be the result, so be it. It will also mean that weak men won't qualify because we're not playing games. This is combat. This is life or death.

Brian: Senator, what's your reaction to the fitness standard? Are there different fitness standards by gender today for armed forces members who might be in the same combat roles as each other?

Senator Andy Kim: Look, I just want to hit the most important part of this coming out from what you just played for folks because I worked as a civilian embedded with the military in Afghanistan, I lived on military bases, I worked at the Pentagon. You raised it earlier about military readiness.

The idea that this Secretary of Defense called our top generals from around the world, over 800 of them, pulling them away from war zones, leaving their service members underneath them without a top commander in country, and for what purpose? To be able to satiate a 45-minute narcissistic rant that basically was a book talk promoting his own book. I find that offensive, and I hope that the American people do. I get it. Hegseth wants to run for President. That was readily apparent by what he did yesterday.

Brian: He is talking about a particular standard for fitness as a test for combat roles. He even said for non-combat roles, generals and admirals, he said no more fat generals. They're going to have to meet certain universal fitness standards per their age and height and everything. What about a single standard for combat fitness? Does it exist, or is there any reason it shouldn't exist?

Senator Andy Kim: This has been looked into at nauseam, at length, in terms of the different jobs and roles. There's not one single job that everybody does. We have different roles that are out there. Someone doing cybersecurity is going to have a fundamentally different job day to day than someone who is infantry, someone who is a pilot in combat.

Yes, we're going to make sure that there's military readiness, but I'll be honest with you, I trust the professionals much more than a Fox News TV host and a draft dodging President to determine what the standards are for our men and women in uniform. When I was in Afghanistan, seeing both women and men fighting at the front lines, I think we've shown that we can operate in that kind of way without him getting into, again, just his promotion tour to be the next President of the United States.

Brian: You mentioned infantry. Single standard for infantry? Do we have it?

Senator Andy Kim: Look, again, I'm not a military commander. I am somebody that trusts the roles that they played in understanding what their needs are. Again, they're very different jobs, even within different units. I trust in the readiness that we're able to develop. There's been a lot of discussion about this. I was on the Armed Services Committee. We oversaw a lot of this. This is about making sure that we have the most lethal fighting force in the world. When Hegseth is talking about all this, that is detracting from that.

Then, frankly, the other point that I just really want to point out from what happened yesterday, the President of the United States saying that American cities will be training grounds for our military, that is absurd. That is dangerous and should never come out of the mouth of a commander-in-chief.

Brian: In our last minute, any reaction as a former diplomat to the new Gaza and Israeli-Palestinian peace plan the President announced? I know it's complicated for a short response, but do you think there's a framework to work with there that could be acceptable to all sides?

Senator Andy Kim: Yes. Look, first and foremost, the violence needs to end immediately. We see a catastrophe. I just had American doctors who have been working in Gaza telling me just the horrific stories that are happening. This is leading everyone, including Israel, to be less safe. I got briefed out on the plan. I hope it's something that can be agreed to immediately because it would immediately go into effect, and the violence that is out there be able to push forward.

Look, as someone who worked in diplomacy, I always want to try to see if there is a diplomatic way to be able to off-ramp because there is no military solution that's going to end this for anybody. There needs to be a deal. I do think that if this is the opening that we have right now, I think we push for it, but regardless, we want to see this violence come to an end.

Brian: Senator Andy Kim, we always appreciate when you come on with us. Thank you very much.

Senator Andy Kim: Thank you.

 

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