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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Hope you had a great Labor Day weekend if you were off, and if you worked so that everyone else could play, thank you. Thank you to the restaurant and other hospitality workers. Thank you to the porters and other building workers, the medical workers, the retail workers. So many stores are open, right? Thank you to the bus and train, and taxi workers, and always to the first responders ready for or actually responding to emergencies.

Thank you, even to my media colleagues covering the news and keeping this and other outlets there for you with information, entertainment, and the glorious weather forecast they were able to deliver over the Labor Day weekend. I know I left people out. Just saying thank you to all of you for your labor on Labor Day. We don't take you for granted on that of all holidays.

On journalists being on duty this weekend, you know politicians have this pattern, we've talked about it before, of doing some of their most controversial things on times like holiday weekends, hoping that most of the public won't notice. Here's a little roundup of things, including things like that. I didn't need to look further than The New York Times to come up with this much.

President Trump, if you haven't heard this yet, tried to deport 600 unaccompanied children to Guatemala. There was this whole middle-of-the-night holiday weekend legal drama that played out, playing on the tarmac, kids on the plane, and a judge ordered a halt and the kids to be deplaned, at least for now. Also, The Times reports Secretary of State Marco Rubio said he would not issue visas to Palestinian officials, preventing them from attending the upcoming United Nations General Assembly here in New York.

The White House intends to cancel $4.9 billion that lawmakers approved for foreign aid programs, invoking a legally untested power to slash spending without the approval of Congress. Maybe you saw the photo of Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping, and Narendra Modi holding hands. I'm not sure they were thinking about Labor Day weekend in the United States. Still, The Times described it as projecting an alternative to US global leadership.

Relevant to Labor Day, The Times had an article called Trump Orders Have Stripped Nearly Half a Million Federal Workers of Union Rights. Labor Day is over. The unofficial last weekend of summer is over. Kids are back at school or going back on Thursday. If you're in the city. Later this hour, parents, take note, and teachers setting up your classrooms, take note. We will have the New York City schools chancellor, Melissa Aviles-Ramos, here to answer my questions and yours. Figure out what your questions are. That'll be around 10:40.

We begin on this day after Labor Day with our monthly Call Your Senator segment right out of the box for this month here on September 2nd, with Democratic New Jersey US Senator Andy Kim. Listeners from New Jersey, you'll get priority seating, but anyone may call or text with a question for Senator Kim. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Senator, we appreciate that you're starting right off with us as Congress returns from its summer break. Welcome back to WNYC.

Senator Andy Kim: Yes, thanks for having me on again.

Brian Lehrer: I see you were just on a trip to South Korea and Japan as part of your summer travel. I'll let you say what you think is important from that. Also, as someone steeped in foreign affairs with your background at the Pentagon and the State Department, some of you may know about that background. We've talked about it before with Senator Kim. He worked at the Pentagon. He worked at the State Department. I also would like to know what you think of the significance of the Putin, Xi Jinping, Narendra Modi handclasp being described as projecting an alternative to global US Leadership.

Senator Andy Kim: Yes, exactly. I think the two go hand in hand. I was just in South Korea and Japan, two of our biggest allies in the world. I was there because this relationship between the United States and these countries is strategic. It helps the United States. It adds to our global power and leadership. These are countries that are leading the forefront when it comes to innovation, when it comes to technology and AI, and semiconductor chips, and so many other things that we need that we cannot do on our own.

With the tariffs that the Trump administration has put forward, he has raised a lot of questions about these alliances, about our respect for our allies. I went to reassure the importance of this strategic relationship to try to settle these differences and these disputes at this time. I really wanted that to succeed. One thing that became very clear to me, not just in terms of that trip, but in terms of my conversations with other leaders of other countries, is this reminder that American global leadership cannot be taken for granted.

Right now, the rest of the world sees America clearly in decline, and it sees the United States and the Trump administration as the cause of that and the instability, and the word that I keep hearing is unpredictability of the United States. It is causing that type of effort where other countries are now trying to build their resilience and their guard up against the United States. They don't want their country to be dependent on other nations. In particular, they don't want their country to be dependent on the United States.

When you see these massive tariffs go up against India, and then you just see right after that, Modi going and hanging out with Putin and President Xi, that's not a coincidence. That is the kind of effort where the rest of the world is preparing for a post-America leadership world. That is happening right now.

Brian Lehrer: Why do we care? We meaning Americans. I mean, there are those on the right, I don't have to tell you, who want the US not to try to be the leader of the whole world because they say everyone else is getting over on us. We spend so much money on everyone else that could be spent on Americans, things like that. There are those on the left who want the US not to try to be the leader of the whole world because they say we're getting over on everyone else, mostly with economic pressure that goes back decades before Trump. Why should we care about some notion of US leadership in regions that are geographically much closer to India, China, or Russia?

Senator Andy Kim: Look, I'm glad that you raised this. First, I'll reframe the phrase you used to and said that it's about our economy, it's about American economic leadership. I think everybody I've talked to, they want the United States to continue to have the strongest economy in the world, to be the drivers of innovation of the future. We take pride in the fact that our tech companies shaped and built the Internet, mobile phones, that so much of the technology that we're using and benefiting from comes from our companies, our leaders, our innovators.

We want to be able to provide for our families. We want to be able to live a good and simple life, to be able to provide for our families, to be able to live our best lives. That requires that strong economy. We also want to keep ourselves safe, safe from foreign threats, safe from terrorist threats, safe in our own communities. That all requires work in terms of the global leadership. There's a reason why our economy has skyrocketed over the last century., why it is that we've been able to benefit and see generation after generation growing their wealth.

Now I have an eight-year-old and nine-year-old. They just started school. I'm worried because I don't know what kind of America they're going to grow up and what kind of world they're going to grow up in. I'm nervous because their generation could very well be the first generation in modern American history that doesn't see that generational progress, that sense that they will have a better life than I did. I think everyone can agree on that. That requires us to be able to engage with the rest of the world and try to maneuver things towards our economic advantage, to be able to support our families. That's really what this is. This is not security.

Brian Lehrer: Trump would say that's a reason to withdraw, to some degree, economically from the world, because look what's happened over the last 30 to 50 years with global trade integration, the decline of the American middle class.

Senator Andy Kim: Look, I agree that that's what Trump's saying, and I hope the American people see the difference, because I disagree fundamentally with what President Trump believes. This idea of America first, when you're talking about it on the global stage, it essentially means America alone. This idea that we can do this all ourselves. No, not at all. I just saw that in Korea. We have really hurt our domestic manufacturing, no doubt. Our shipbuilding capabilities are paltry. South Korea is a shipbuilding juggernaut. They can help support and work with us to help rebuild our domestic manufacturing, do it together.

We don't need to make and build every single thing in the United States. We need to have other partners to be able to build off from. Part of our strategic advantage is our ability to build coalitions and alliances. That's certainly something that China and Russia struggle to do. We're pushing people away from us, other countries away from us, towards our competitors and our adversaries. I think that that's going to hurt us.

I will just say one more thing. Absolutely, there's been a lot of struggle to the American middle class, to working families. I see that all across my state. We have to remember we live in the time of the greatest amount of inequality in American history, even worse than the robber baron era. We clearly can do better to be able to provide health care for all Americans, to be able to help people live a life of dignity and decency.

It isn't about zero-sum with the rest of the world. It's that we are having problems internally in terms of being able to understand how to be able to make sure that people here have that foundation to be able to build off from for their families. There's a lot of wealth in this country. It's just concentrated in the hands of very few people.

Brian Lehrer: Here are two texts that just came in from different phone numbers. I'm going to edit from within them because they're longer than the parts I'm going to read. One says, "I am personally concerned about the slow erosion of our democracy by President Trump." The other one says, "What are we to do as we watch this tsunami of authoritarianism take hold?"

Relevant to what we were just talking about, funny enough, or not funny at all, I could imagine Donald Trump as a fourth participant in the next photo op with that group: Modi and Xi and Putin, where the subtext is, "We four authoritarians are the leaders of the New World Order, not you weaklings in Europe or Canada or South Korea." Do you think we're headed for something like that? Here's something that the president said just the other day. You've probably heard this clip when he was asked about being a dictator.

President Trump: They say, "We don't need him. Freedom, freedom. He's a dictator. He's a dictator." A lot of people are saying, "Maybe we like a dictator." I don't like a dictator. I'm not a dictator. I'm a man with great common sense, and I'm a smart person.

Brian Lehrer: He says he's not a dictator, but he leaned into that idea that maybe people would like a dictator. I think he was talking about how crime is addressed and things like that. Do you think we're headed for something like that, the four shot with Modi and Putin and Xi, or would that group plus Trump more reflect the reality we're already living in?

Senator Andy Kim: It's so unsettling right now to see which direction we're going. That word unpredictable, again, that was the word I keep hearing from other countries when they describe the United States, and when I talk to their leaders, and it's something that they make very clear to me. It's not something that can just be fixed in 2028. It's not just about who's going to be the next president and will some of these policies be reversed.

This is long term reputational damage that is being done that will take a long time, if ever, that we can fully repair this, because it's just a deep, deep concern and anxiety writ large about the American system, about whether or not we are moving in a direction in which the divisions that are so vast in this country lead us to a point where we see the rise of authoritarianism in a real and persistent way.

One thing that really bothered me, Brian, is that there was this one survey that came out a little while back where the majority of Americans surveyed said that they would use the word enemy to describe people in the other political party. It just really hit home to me just how dangerous of a moment we're in right now as a country. That's exactly the type of situation that someone can really take advantage of, like President Trump has been doing, to really pit us against each other and using and fomenting that anger and that division for political dominance, which is what he's trying to do over and over and over again.

We see it with what happened with the CDC and the effort to just completely gut anybody that has any type of dissenting viewpoint or raises any type of concerns within his own administration. That's something that just-- it reminds me more of the kind of way in which Vladimir Putin and President Xi operate. I don't want to see that here. We have a rule of law system. We have a democracy where the people are the bosses. I have 9 million bosses in New Jersey. They are the ones that dictate and determine how we should be moving forward. It does feel like we're moving in such a precarious situation right now, where so much of that is challenged.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, if you're just joining us, our guest is New Jersey Senator Andy Kim for his monthly Call Your Senator segment. We're taking phone calls and texts from you in New Jersey and elsewhere, but New Jerseyans get first priority. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Mike in Cedar Grove, you're on WNYC with Senator Kim. Hi, Mike.

Mike: Hello. Hello, Mr. Kim. I volunteer at Delaney Hall in Newark, New Jersey, where immigrants are being detained. I am witness, almost daily, to families getting torn apart. There are people there that are in real distress. They're hungry, and we are working to help them. The inmates are not treated well. They're being held inside. The lights are on 24/7. There are no clocks, and they're starting to psychologically suffer from just a loss of any sense of time. Senator Kim, could you possibly get them watches and clocks so we can, at the very least, reduce the suffering in there? We will provide them if necessary.

Senator Andy Kim: Thank you for what you're doing in terms of looking out for others. I say that as someone who-- I'm a son of immigrants, married to an immigrant, and care so deeply about, again, just the fundamental treatment and to go against what is clearly a policy of cruelty that we're seeing right now on so many different fronts. I have visited Delaney Hall, and very much concerned about the well-being of the people there. Worried and hearing so much about the problems in terms of their treatment.

When I was there, there was a lot of concern about food rations and how much they're getting about the conditions of the facilities, and in particular, in the bathroom areas. Thank you for raising the issues about the lights. I will absolutely make sure that I'm pressing DHS this week, and I will try to reach out and try to talk to some of the other people being detained there and their families to try to understand what else they're experiencing and the challenges they're having.

Brian Lehrer: Their needs. Can I just say I had the reaction, and I bet a lot of listeners did too, to the specific request that you made, Mike, the specific, simple but kind of shocking request, "Could you get them watches and clocks?" Because, I guess, Mike, their sense of time is leading to disorientation if they never know what day it is and time it is, and they're not getting light and all of that. I almost don't have the words. I mean, it's shocking, but wow, what a request.

Senator Andy Kim: Also, just the ability for them to be able to talk to their families, something just so basic, and that's something that I hear is just a constant problem about that, the ability to do video conference with their kids. Those are, again, regardless of how you feel about the immigration debate in this country, just a certain amount of decency and dignity that we should afford people living here as per our constitution.

Brian Lehrer: I mentioned the drama over the weekend in the intro with unaccompanied minors from Guatemala, children, largely teens and pre-teens, who arrived here without their parents being put on a plane for deportation over the weekend. The administration calls it repatriation and says they were all going back voluntarily, but immigration lawyers say that's false. Some immigration lawyers spent their holiday weekend getting a judge to order the plane not to fly and the kids to be taken off the plane. For now, at least, the Trump administration seems to be complying with the order. I wonder if you know anything about this or if any of those kids from New Jersey were from New Jersey.

Senator Andy Kim: You can see how, again, intentional it was because of the holidays, and they want to push some of these actions when they think people aren't paying attention or when it's easier to maneuver. You see that with how they are trying to move on this pocket rescission and trying to limit Congress's ability to have our inputs, our oversight. Yes, especially when it comes to kids, there are protections that are put into place, and we need to make sure that we are a country of rule of law.

When we see these actions trying to be done in the middle of the night, we see clearly an effort to try to circumvent that type of oversight and that type of accountability. That is something that needs to be cleared up in terms of this. We are trying to get an understanding of the identities of these kids, trying to understand-- especially some of the lawyers are saying these are kids that don't want to go back. They're concerned. If that were to happen, we need more details about that. I'm glad that this judge has put a pause on this right now to make sure that we go through our system of accountability through rule of law, which is what needs to happen.

Brian Lehrer: You mentioned the pocket rescission that, I guess, refers to the new plan from the White House. Again, something that happened over Labor Day weekend when they probably thought people wouldn't notice. I mentioned The New York Times story that starts, "The White House intends to cancel $4.9 billion that lawmakers approve for foreign aid programs, invoking a legally untested power to slash spending without the approval of Congress."

I guess my question is, do you have any reason to believe your Republican colleagues in the Senate will stand up for the balance of power between the executive and congressional branches, or that supporting their party's leader, especially on something like foreign aid, which is not always that popular, will carry the day with them?

Senator Andy Kim: Right now, the baseline of what we've seen, how things have gone, is just that the Republicans in Congress have abdicated their responsibility, especially as the ones holding the gavels in the Senate and the House, to meaningfully act like a separate and equal branch of government. That just hasn't been happening. The question is, is anything going to change this time around? I can tell you how many of my Republican colleagues were uncomfortable and did not like the last process we went through when it came to rescissions. We see and have been going through a formal appropriations process this year, as we should be. That could all be blown up by what Trump just did with this pocket rescission.

By that, I just mean, for the American people to understand, it's something where they are saying they are not going to spend this money, and they're doing so just weeks before the end of the fiscal year, which obviously does not give Congress enough time or does not fit within our timetable to be able to respond to this rescission. It's clearly something done intentionally to circumvent Congress. That's why this is not something that's been done in the last half-century.

We're going to be gathering back up at the Senate later today. I am sitting down with a number of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle this week to talk through these issues. I'm hoping that they're going to come back with a different tune. Look, I'm not holding my breath. I've seen firsthand what we're going up against, especially when we saw that reconciliation bill that's doing so much damage to the United States get passed through out of fear of crossing Donald Trump.

That's where we are right now. Again, I hope the American people see exactly what is unfolding and see why it is we cannot continue to have the gavels in the hands of these `Republican members of Congress because they are just laying down and letting Donald Trump do whatever he wants.

Brian Lehrer: David in Manhattan, peering west, you're on WNYC with New Jersey Senator Andy Kim. Hi.

David: Thank you very much, Brian. Good morning, Senator. I want to ask two related questions that draw on your experience in foreign policy, national security, as well as being a fresh face in the Democratic Party. As you know, Zohran Mamdani won a convincing victory in the Democratic primary for New York City mayor. Yet, Senator Schumer, the Democratic leader in the Senate, and others like Hakeem Jeffries and even Governor Hochul have not yet endorsed him, obviously for fear with respect to his position on Israel and Gaza.

You know that younger voices in the party are pretty adamant about this issue. How can we move Schumer and the old dinosaurs in the party away from the position that any criticism of Israel is anathema? How do we get them to embrace the younger position in the party on Israel and Gaza without severing the relationship with Israel? At the same time, how does the Democratic Party retrain fire on Trump, who is actually enabling the most catastrophic events in Middle Eastern history as they take place before our eyes, and all the attention is focused within the party? How do we retrain that attention against the current administration?

Brian Lehrer: Well, if you can solve all that, Senator.

Senator Andy Kim: [chuckles] Look, what I'll just start by saying is, as I've been in for a couple years, I'm not somebody who comes from politics. As you said, I come from a national security background. I've been learning a lot over the last few years. The main thing I just say is that the important thing right now to do is to just do what we think is right and just not wait to assume that leaders of the party and others are going to be leading from the front, that we show that we can lead by example and take certain actions, and show what the future looks like.

Look, the American people, they do not want the status quo. They know things are broken in our politics. Sometimes it requires a younger, new generation to step up and show a different way. In New Jersey, when I was running for Senate, I had to actually run against my own party. I ran against the Democratic Party in New Jersey because they were abiding by and perpetuating a corrupt, broken political system that allowed machine politics and party bosses to dictate what comes next.

Brian Lehrer: Have you endorsed Mamdani for mayor?

Senator Andy Kim: Well, I haven't been asked. I'm happy to.

Brian Lehrer: I'm asking. Are you one way or the other? I'm not asking you to. I'm not in a campaign. I'm asking you if you are, as a journalist.

Senator Andy Kim: Look, if he wants my endorsement, he has it. I'd like to talk to him and get a sense of how I can be helpful if that's useful. I think the main thing is, look, again, there is such energy for a new generation of leadership to show that change. I think he's demonstrated that. I've witnessed and saw, at least from my own perspective, how he's energizing voters. That's something that the Democratic Party needs to try to support and build off from. Yes, if he wants my help, I'm happy to help. If not, no worries on my front.

Look, we don't need a one-size-fits-all. We shouldn't be worried about people with different opinions, and maybe some of the things we believe, coming up in the party. I'm a deep believer that it's good to have that sense of change and that sense of freshness and new generation. I think we need to see that not just in New York, but in all 50 states.

Brian Lehrer: Probably just made a little news there, Senator.

Senator Andy Kim: [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: To the callers, before we move on from that, to the caller-specific question regarding Mamdani, the generational split in the Democratic Party regarding Gaza, and he cited Trump in Gaza. I mentioned in the intro another thing that happened over the weekend. Maybe nobody would notice, they hoped. Secretary of State Republic Rubio said no visas for Palestinian officials, preventing them from attending the UN General Assembly, which is going to happen in New York this month. They say the reason is, the General Assembly is for leaders of nation-states. There's no current nation of Palestine, and Trump doesn't want to add pressure on Israel to allow the creation of one.

I guess the question is, do you think when it comes to both Netanyahu and Putin, regarding both Gaza and Ukraine, that the president is playing a kind of game where he says what's going on is wrong? He said recently, starvation in Gaza is real, contradicting Netanyahu. He says Russia should stop bombing Ukrainian civilians while negotiations are supposedly taking place. He says those things, but then does nothing to use US leverage to stop those two leaders from continuing their military campaigns. Is that on purpose? Is that your take as somebody with State Department and Pentagon experience? He's saying, "Look what I'm saying, not what I'm doing."

Senator Andy Kim: Look, it gets right back to what I opened with in this interview, which is about that unpredictability and just, again, that is hurting American leadership. When we took on the role of hosting, in our country, the UN Headquarters, it was a sign that the United States was the future, that we were where the future global order is going to be shaped. We try to engage, including with our enemies at the time. I just took a trip to Japan, who is now one of our closest allies, who was an enemy and adversary to us in World War II.

It was this effort that we had that said we're going to be above this, we're going to try to shape this whole order. As we see, it's just getting petty now in how Trump is operating, abdicating that sense of global leadership and taking actions that are inconsistent, actions that make, honestly, no sense in terms of how it's just antagonizing our partners around the world. Yes, we've, in the past, had leaders, including leaders from Iran and elsewhere, come to this gathering at the UN because it is a gathering of the world.

Whether we like the message that they're giving or not, that's not on us to dictate who's going to come into that arena and be able to engage. It just further erodes our reputation in the eyes of the world. It's humiliating, honestly, just to see how much we have fallen in terms of that reputation.

Brian Lehrer: We have a few more minutes with Senator Andy Kim, which we'll do after-- We haven't even gotten yet to the possibility of a government shutdown at the end of this month, which Congress either will or won't avoid. I have a follow-up question for you that three different people have texted from one of your earlier answers. We'll get to that right after this.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. A few more minutes in our monthly Call Your Senator segment with New Jersey Senator Andy Kim. Senator, I mentioned before the break, we've gotten three, now four texts from different numbers on the answer that you gave to the caller who wanted you to help get timepieces: watches or clocks, to people in immigration detention at Delaney Hall, because they don't even let them know what time it is, according to the caller, and they're so disoriented.

People want to know if you will-- even though you express sympathy for it, you didn't say you would do something to try to specifically get clocks or watches for them. One listener even asked, "Maybe give us more information if we want to donate watches for the detainees." I guess to ask the question that they're following up with directly, is that something you will intervene on?

Senator Andy Kim: Yes, absolutely. Look, we've already been engaging with just oversight, and we've raised other issues with Department of Homeland Security when it comes to the treatment of detainees at Delaney Hall at the Elizabeth Detention Facility. Yes, absolutely. I'll make sure that later today, I'll reach out to Department of Homeland Security. I think what I like to do is talk to my team and see if we can get a comprehensive list of what we're hearing in terms of complaints about treatment at the facility, so that we can, instead of piecemeal, try to present a list of concerns.

Look, if people have information, they can go to kim.senate.gov, pass us along thoughts there. In particular, it's helpful if it's either an attorney or a family member, just so we have a sense of direct contact that they've heard this from. We'll do ourselves. We have some people that we engage with that help us understand what's happening there. We'll make sure we do our due diligence. Yes, absolutely want to advocate for them. I'll certainly add the concerns about the lights being on 24/7, concerns about watches, and ability to understand what time it is, so that we'll make sure we raise those immediately.

Brian Lehrer: We've got about three minutes left. Congress is returning to session after the summer with another possible government shutdown looming at the end of this month. Listener texts, "I heard Senator Chris Coon of Delaware this morning on the news, suggesting in an interview, the Democrats may support the idea of letting the government shut down in protest of all the wreckage going on." I'm curious, your position on that. Also, do you think that's going to be a close call, a government shutdown, and based on any specific funding disputes?

Senator Andy Kim: Look, the first thing I'll say is that you can see by the actions of Trump that, again, he's already shutting down our government. He even did this pocket rescission that we just talked about. This is an effort for him to just continue to shut this down, try to circumvent Congress. We've been going through the appropriations process in the Senate, trying to get bipartisan support. We passed some of these appropriations packages already. That process should play out.

What is so important for the American people, and I'm just pressing Democratic leaders across the board on this, is we can't just say what we're against. We have to show what we're for. We have to show a positive sense of what the budget is that we're trying to get past and why, not just that we oppose this or oppose this action by Trump, but say, "Look, this is the funding that we want for cancer research in this country. This is the kind of support that we need to be able to keep our health care open so that kids with mental health challenges get the care that they need. When we see people with disabilities and how concerned they are about losing some of their Medicaid coverage, we need to show not just what we're against, but what we're trying to build."

That is something that I'm pressing hard for to be able to push on and try to do everything we can to keep this government not just open, but supporting the American people that need help and support the most. If Trump wants to continue what he's doing with these rescissions and basically telling Republicans in Congress that they should take actions that would lead to a shutdown, that's on Trump, and so be it. If he's going to continue to push in that direction, that's what the American people need to see and point the finger of blame towards Trump for just how damaging he's operated, in terms of our ability of our government to be able to provide that support that it needs to the people.

I'm going to continue to push for that positive vision for our government. I'm going to push for this appropriations process and do everything I can to prevent Trump from shutting down the government and trying to do what we can to ensure that the American people understand just how dangerous a path Trump is leading us right now.

Brian Lehrer: If you can't agree on a budget, you're already trying to put it on him. Yet another reason that this will be a consequential month in local, national, and world affairs, with the new fiscal year for the federal government beginning October 1st. Senator Andy Kim, we always appreciate your monthly appearances here and taking so many questions

Senator Andy Kim: Thank you.

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