Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. For a treat to end today's show, we have a chance to talk to the legendary broadcaster Bob Costas. I say legendary broadcaster Bob Costas, not just sportscaster, because he's the only person in television history to have won Emmy awards in sports, entertainment, and news categories. 29 Emmys in all. He joins us in advance of an event at the 92nd Street Y this Sunday called Bob Costas: A Career Conversation with Howard Bryant. Some of you know Howard Bryant, too, maybe from his main job on ESPN or his writing, including his biography of Hank Aaron, but also as a regular sports commentator on this station on NPR with Scott Simon on Weekend EDITION Saturday. They'll talk about the life and times of Bob Costas on Sunday night after he has stepped away from baseball play-by-play after 44 years. We get to do a mini version of that kind of conversation ourselves right now, and also invite your calls. Bob, very big fan. Thank you so much for giving us some time today. Welcome to WNYC.

Bob Costas: Hi, Brian. I've listened to you over the years, so it's a pleasure to be on with you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Listeners, our phones are open. Anything you always wanted to ask Bob Costas but never had him over for dinner. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Feel free to call or text. Bob, listeners may not know you grew up in our area in Commack on Long Island. You went to Comac High School South, I see. Were you a big sports fan or a sports announcing fan as a kid?

Bob Costas: Yes, both. Baseball, especially, because as I was growing up, late '50s, early '60s, when I first became aware of sports, baseball was still the unquestioned national pastime. For whatever reasons, if I was watching a game on TV then black and white or listening on the radio to then Mel Allen and Red Barber, who had moved from the Brooklyn Dodgers to the New York Yankees, and then later on living in California in the early '60s for a couple of years, listening to the unparalleled Vin Scully.

To me, the sounds of the game, the sounds of the announcers, especially in baseball, but also the young Marv Albert, and before that, Marty Glickman. New Yorkers will relate to that, on football and on basketball, that was always, to me, inseparable from the games themselves.

Brian Lehrer: Were you a Mets fan or a Yankees fan? The window that you're describing, you would have started being a baseball fan, I think, in that window after the Dodgers and Giants left New York, but before the Mets came in. Most people on Long Island tend to be National League fans, Mets fans.

Bob Costas: Yes, that's right. You've got it exactly right. That was the window the Giants and Dodgers had left. The Mets don't come into existence until 1962, by which time my fandom is set. There's only one team in New York, and that team happened to be, with the exception of 1959, a team that won the pennant every single year until I was 13 years old. I became a Yankee fan, and I became a Mickey Mantle fan because he was their greatest star.

Brian Lehrer: How'd you break into play-by-play? It's tough to call a game live in whatever sport with so much you have to see in front of you on every play, plus the context. How did you get a shot to break into that and get practice before you got called up to the high-profile games?

Bob Costas: I read in a Nick Yearbook when I was about 16 years old and a junior in high school that both Marty Glickman, who practically invented the way basketball was called on the radio as the original voice of the Knicks, and then his protege, Marv Albert, that they had both gone to Syracuse. That was good enough for me. I looked into it, and subsequently Syracuse has become almost Sportscaster U. Dozens and dozens, if not hundreds, of sports broadcasters have gone there once it established a deeper reputation. At that time, it was Marty, Marv Albert, Len Berman, Dick Stockton, a few others, Dick Clark of American Bandstand fame, and Ted Koppel.

Mostly sports broadcasters. I went there, and they were ahead of the curve in the early 1970s. At most universities, journalism meant print journalism, and broadcast was looked down upon, the toy department. Syracuse had a more progressive vision about it, and they had a campus television station and a campus radio station. Only a month into my freshman year, I was on the campus radio station, not sounding nearly as good as I one day hoped to be, but some professors and some of the older people involved, graduate students or whatever, thought that I had a little bit of potential.

When I was a senior, I landed a job for $30 a game calling minor league hockey in the old Eastern Hockey League, which is the league that the Paul Newman movie Slap Shot is based upon. You just get [inaudible 00:05:09] reps. You're just figuring out how to do it. Then by some lucky set of circumstances, I wound up in St. Louis at a very powerful radio station, KMOX, which carried all the St. Louis sports, the Cardinals, Missouri's games, the Blues, football when they had it in the NFL. I wound up there at age 22.

I guess I had a little bit of precocious ability. NBC took note of me when I was in my mid-20s, brought me back to New York to work at NBC. One thing led to another. You don't have enough time here to run through the whole list of lucky happenstances, but things fell in place.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, I felt that way about my broadcasting career, too. Whatever ability I have, I had so many lucky breaks along the way. Things that just fell right at the right time, where there was an opening or there was a something you. You called--

Bob Costas: [crosstalk] Just one example. Let me jump in here for 10 seconds. Just one example. I get there as a play-by-play guy, and I'm perfectly happy while I'm doing play-by-play on network television. Bryant Gumbel leaves sports to go to the Today show. They tapped me to be his successor, hosting the football stuff and then eventually the NBA. That led naturally to me being the host of the Olympics. If Bryant had never left that, and he was superb at everything he did. If he had never left, those doors wouldn't have opened.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Here is Nick in Roslyn Heights. You're on WNYC with Bob Costas. Hi, Nick.

Nick: Oh, hi. Thank you. Bob, it's great speaking to you. I can't believe I'm talking to Bob Costas. I'm a long-time-- I remember your program. You had a Talk program at 1:00 AM on Channel 4. I used to watch it every night. I worked the night shift. Now, Bob, here's my question. Is it true that you have a 1953 baseball card, a Mickey Mantle baseball card, in your wallet? I read that somewhere along the line.

Bob Costas: Close. It's essentially true. 1958. 1958 was the first time I was six years old that I got a Mickey Mantle bubblegum card out of a pack of Topps baseball cards. Even though I'm not a collector and I never attached a monetary value to these cards the way some people do, I kept that one 1958 medal as a good luck charm. Then somebody took note of it, and it wound up as a small item years ago in Sports Illustrated. Now I never leave the house without it because somebody, a stranger, is apt to say, "Hey, Bob, do you really have that Mantle card?" I don't want to disappoint them, so I got to produce the card.

Brian Lehrer: Another listener has a Mickey Mantle question. The question goes, "Want to get Bob Costas's perspective on how Aaron Judge can be compared to Yankee greats such as Mickey Mantle.

Bob Costas: When you look at Aaron Judge's stats in his biggest years. He's had some interruptions; 2020 was a COVID-shortened season. He's had some injuries that limited him in other years. If you look at 2017, 2022, 2024, and thus far in 2025, he is doing things that edge him toward the Yankee Mount Rushmore, which forever has been Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, and Mantle. I don't know how you displace any one of those four, but Judge's numbers and what he has done aren't just Hall of Fame worthy, they're inner circle Hall of Fame worthy.

What he is doing right now is off the chart. Now, I don't think he's going to stay above 400. That's almost unattainable. He is doing things that are at a level above most of what we have seen in baseball history. He is becoming not just a star player, an MVP player, which he is, a Hall of Fame player, which is a great designation. He's becoming an historic player.

Brian Lehrer: Did you know Yogi Berra?

Bob Costas: I did.

Brian Lehrer: Next Monday would be his 100th birthday, and we're going to do a little segment. Did you know Yogi, or-- You said you did, or think there's something important to say about him as a player or a person?

Bob Costas: Yes. In fact, I will be the host of a ceremony at the Yogi Berra Museum on Monday, marking his 100th birthday in Montclair, New Jersey. I knew Yogi well. He was so kind to me because he was so kind to everyone. He's one of the greatest catchers in baseball history, three three-time MVP. Because he played with those great Yankee teams from the late '40s into the '60s, and then later was a coach or manager with the Yankees and then the Mets. I think he has more World Series rings than anybody in the history of the game. Of course, he's a beloved figure because of his kindness and because of those Yogi-isms.

There are too many of them to list, but at least four or five of them are in Bartlett's book of famous quotations. Alongside Churchill and Plato, here's Yogi Berra. My favorite one-- there's so many -- but my favorite was always this. "Always go to your friends' funerals, otherwise they won't go to yours." Who can dispute the logic of that?

Brian Lehrer: Kylie in Northern Virginia, you're on WNYC with Bob Costas. Hi, Kylie.

Kylie: Hi. I'm going to-- I have a question about basketball.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to switch sports. Go ahead.

Kylie: We're going to switch sports. Yes. I'm wondering, Mr. Costas, what would you say-- Do you think that there's a chance that we can level up basketball? I must admit I watched much more college basketball. I'm somewhat bored with professional basketball. We had a three-point shot, the three-second violation--

Brian Lehrer: Whoops, I think-

Bob Costas: [crosstalk] Oh, we lost her

Brian Lehrer: -line dropped out. Kylie, you there? Well, I think a lot of people are frustrated with how entertaining the NBA is or isn't at this point, which is, I guess, where she was going and wants to know if the rules can be changed.

Bob Costas: Quick response to that. These playoffs have been remarkable, some of the most remarkable games so far in the playoffs, with the underdog teams now taking the lead in these series, which makes it all the more interesting, winning on the road against the favorite teams. The general criticism sometimes rears its ugly head. The Celtics missed, didn't just take, they missed 45 three-pointers in an overtime loss at home to the Knicks in game one of that series. When a team, even a very good team like the Celtics, the defending champions, is overly reliant on the three-point shot, I think it takes some of the texture away.

The game has other elements. The mid-range jumper, a fast break finished off with a layup rather than guys running to the corner setting up for a three-pointer. I think that gives you a fuller appreciation of what basketball can be.

Brian Lehrer: Can I ask what you think about how healthy the game of baseball is or not? There's always talk that the younger generations aren't getting into it. Maybe it's a game with a 19th or 20th century pace, all of that. Then I see the Yankees are putting 40,000 fans in the seats on cold days in April this year. Mets too. What do you think generally?

Bob Costas: I'll try to give you as concise an answer as I can. Where baseball is hurting most, at least in terms of its appeal, is national television ratings. Regional television ratings, local television ratings are very strong. The era that you and I may think of as the Golden Age, the '50s, '60s, '70s, even lesser teams now draw more than 2 million fans. Back in the day, teams used to congratulate themselves for passing the million mark.

The revenue in the game, the wealth in the game, is greater than it ever has been. The number of people following baseball, even if some of them follow it online and in different ways than standard television, is greater than it ever has been. There are so many great young players in the game. You mentioned Judge, Shohei Ohtani, and others. These are generational players, but the biggest problem for baseball is that some of its 30 teams cannot compete. There's just a wealth gap that consigns a lot of teams to never being able to build a consistent contender. That's the problem that is looming and may lead to yet another lockout after the 2026 season.

Brian Lehrer: Kyle in Chinatown has long-ago memory of having a brief contact with you, I think. Kyle, you're on WNYC with Bob Costas.

Kyle: Thanks, Brian. First time, long time. Yes. Mr. Costas, it was probably the early aughts, like 2004. You were in Louisville, Kentucky, probably covering the derby. That Marriott had just opened, and it was breakfast, and I was serving you breakfast as the room service server. We didn't have it because I really don't think I would have forgotten it, but we didn't have cottage cheese. I know it was part of your grind because you just confirmed it. It's like that happens every day, at least. I knew that your day was down--

Bob Costas: [crosstalk] Well, I hope that--

Kyle: Yes, I just wanted to say I'm sorry.

[laughter]

Bob Costas: Well, you're more than forgiven. Long since forgiven. In fact, you were probably forgiven by the time the door closed on that day back in '04. I hope I at least tipped generously.

Brian Lehrer: Kayle, thank you very much. Mendel in West Hartford, you're on WNYC with Bob Costas. Hi, Mendel.

Mendel: Good morning, Brian, and good morning, Mr. Costas. I was just wondering what compelled you to be a cast member of the film Pootie Tang, which was, in your words at the end of the film, the longest intro ever. Then you said, "Comb me down the panty side." Then he said, "What?" Then he goes, "Comb me down on the panty side." Pootie then was like, "Oh, okay." That was cool.

Bob Costas: If you're going to speak Pootie speak, you have to be grammatically correct. You got to get your syntax in order. Simple answer. Chris Rock was the executive producer of the film, and he has a brief part in it. Chris Rock asked me. If Chris Rock asked you to do it, you figure, how can it be bad? The truth is that while it might not have been classic, it's a cult classic now. I'm glad that I did it. It was fun. We shot my part in 45 minutes. They did it on the set of an HBO show that I was doing.

The guy, Lance Crouther, who played Pootie Tang, just sat down and so did Wanda Sykes. I did mock interviews with them. No script, just a general idea. We ad-libbed the whole thing, and I was out the door and 45 minutes.

Brian Lehrer: I guess the Pootie Tang question sets up one that I wanted to ask you anyway, which is that, I mentioned in the intro I see you're the only person ever to win Emmys for all three of sports and news and entertainment. You also won a Walter Cronkite Journalism award. You were a guest host for Larry King on CNN. You had your HBO shows, Costa's Coast to Coast on the radio, which wasn't only about sports. Is there something not in sports that you liked doing the best of those other categories?

Bob Costas: Yes, the Later show. One of my few regrets. I've had such a fortunate career. I left after six years because my children were young. I was commuting between St. Louis and New York, and NBC then had everything. I was involved in all of it. Basketball, baseball, the NBA, the Olympics, all that. I thought that something had to come off the plate, and to make the show as good as it was, there was a lot of research involved. We had a wonderful staff, and they were extremely helpful. You got to pour through that material if you're going to do the kind of job that I expected myself to do.

I walked away after six years, and I could have done it. I should have done it for 10 or 12. It's got a new life now on YouTube, and I hear so many appreciative comments about it. It has had a texture to it. A typical week could literally be Hank Aaron on Monday, Elie Wiesel on Tuesday, Don Rickles on Wednesday, and Mary Tyler Moore on Thursday. That could be a typical week. All those people were guests, so there you go.

Brian Lehrer: This is mostly a news and news and issues and politics show, as you know, and you've said a thing or two about issues over the years, and sometimes you took criticism for it. How did you integrate those sides of your public self? Because, like someone on Fox said, shut up and dribble to LeBron James. A lot of people probably don't want to hear political opinions from their sportscasters.

Bob Costas: Yes, that's true. One distinction that should be made. With the exception of 2 out of more than 100 halftime essays on Sunday Night Football on NBC. I never did any of that connected to the game, and never at all during the game or during the event. If there were political issues that intersected with the Olympics, as they inevitably do, I did it during those interstitial moments in and around the events, not when Michael Phelps was about to jump in the pool or Usain Bolt was about to break from the blocks in the 100 meters. I would never do that. It's counterproductive to do that.

Despite what people may say, that's not the case. They may associate me when they see me doing a sports event with something I've said on CNN or elsewhere. I think I've only spoken about political things in a sports context when they have inevitably intersected. People who say that there's no politics in sports don't know the history of all that. By the way, when Laura Ingraham says shut up and dribble, or as she said to Barbra Streisand, "Shut up and sing," what that really means is shut up if you're saying something I don't want to hear or I don't agree with.

Because the door is open at Fox News to anyone in entertainment or sports who says something that aligns with their outlook, and they're perfectly within their rights to do that. Let's be honest about what it is.

Brian Lehrer: One sports-oriented issue call that we'll take here that just came in. Luke in Manhattan, you're on WNYC with Bob Costas. We have 30 seconds for you, Luke. We're almost out of time.

Luke: Hey, Mr. Costas, you're a living legend. Thanks for taking the time here. I just wanted to-

Bob Costas: Thank you.

Luke: -get your take on the advent of sports gambling. It seems like every ad break, every lead is like-- I don't want to say celebrating, but pushing forward this pretty--

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Go ahead, Bob.

Bob Costas: Not only accepting and profiting from it, but encouraging it. Now, some people may know I have a personal history with gambling. My father was an inveterate gambler, and it took our family on a roller coaster. I don't think this puts me on moral high ground, but I'm just not comfortable with it. I have refused on broadcast to read any of the promos for gambling. I just can't in good conscience do that. I think what it has done, leaving aside the very real possibility that some people become hooked and get in over their heads, what it has done is it's made the relationship between a large percentage of fans and the games they watch transactional rather than emotional.

It's you hope your team wins, but you're desperate for your bet to win, and I think that distorts the relationship.

Brian Lehrer: We have 20 seconds. Do you want to plug the Sunday night event at the 92nd Street Y about your career with you and Howard Bryant? What can people expect?

Bob Costas: Howard Bryant is a smart guy. That's why I wanted him to lead the conversation. We'll have some video clips from moments in my career that might entertain people, and they might be interested in, and I have great fondness for the 92nd Street Y. I've been lucky enough to appear there over the years. It's a smart audience, and we hope to deliver something that's worthy of their time.

Brian Lehrer: The event on Sunday night is going to be called-- Now I lost it. Let's see. Bob Costas: A Career Conversation with Howard Bryant at the 92nd Street Y. Good luck with that. Good luck, whatever you're going to do, I guess you're going to keep working even though you're not going to do play by play anymore, right?

Bob Costas: Yes. Cameo stuff. I'm an emeritus guy now. I see myself in an emeritus--

Brian Lehrer: We really appreciate you coming on with us. Thank you very much, Bob.

Bob Costas: It was a pleasure, Brian. Thank you.

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