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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. As if I had to tell you, welcome to the new and now completely different 2024 presidential race. I was hearing from various Democratic Party-leaning friends and relatives yesterday, since the announcement came around 2:00 in the afternoon, and the mix of first emotions was really interesting just in my small unscientific sample.

The first word that came up for a number of folks was relief. The unresolved tension of Biden staying in while so many Democrats were pressuring him to get out really felt tense to many Democrats who care about politics and policy and beating Donald Trump, and frankly, almost everyone I know in that category wanted Biden to drop out. Relief is a prominent word I heard yesterday once he did. Others used the word hope.

One friend wrote, "My wife's reaction was pure joy. I haven't seen her that animated about a political issue since Obama's election." Another one said, "Cautiously optimistic." Another said, "Energized or reenergized." Another, who was no big fan of Kamala Harris in the past, said she's now excited about her. Several said, "Sad for Biden," even if they supported the decision. Another said, "Concerned that whoever replaces Biden can actually beat Trump." One other just said, "Interesting." He was still dismayed, he went on, that half the country could support what he called the fascism of Donald Trump, and wrote that he hopes Kamala, as he put it, can unite the Democrats quickly and overcome the many racist, sexist and antisemitic, with her Jewish husband, attacks to come.

Listeners, what about you? What was your dominant reaction upon first hearing that President Biden was ending his campaign? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Moving on from that, has that already changed since as the news has already moved on? It seems like the question of Vice President Harris versus an open process that was getting so much discussion may be getting answered more quickly than many people thought and both the way it seems to be shaking out so far. There's nobody closing the process so far, but the instant coalescing around the vice president is surprising many political observers.

All the main potential other candidates, if you haven't heard this yet, have already endorsed her and said they will not seek the nomination themselves, Gretchen Whitmer, Gavin Newsom, Josh Shapiro, Mark Kelly, Roy Cooper, Andy Beshear. Listeners, that's another question for you. Do you think this kind of instant nominee, if that's what actually happens, is the best way to beat Donald Trump? Because that's the ultimate question here. What's the best way to beat Donald Trump? That's the only reason Biden dropped out is that he and his party no longer believed his candidacy was the best way to beat Donald Trump.

Is the best way to beat Donald Trump, in your opinion, coalescing right away around the vice president, or would some kind of mini primary season, however they do that, to woo convention delegates leave the eventual nominee in a stronger position? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. If it's Harris for president, who do you want for vice president?

I also want to invite anyone listening right now who is a Democratic Convention delegate to call in. We have a few delegates lined up as guests. There are 300 or so from our New York-New Jersey listening area, out of the 4,672 delegates overall. That's the number I've seen, 4,672 total Democratic Convention delegates, the large majority committed to Biden now released with him dropping out. There are some uncommitted delegates. Remember the uncommitted movement. They talked about this on Morning Edition too, to support a cease-fire in Gaza and protest Biden's Mideast policies. There aren't many, but there are some uncommitted delegates.

The rest are now freed from their commitment to Joe Biden, so any delegates listening right now, we would love to hear from you with your feelings and your preferences for how to proceed. 212-433-WNYC. You are the only people who have the official final word now on who the nominee will be or anyone else. We'll take lots of calls and texts today and talk to a variety of guests.

With us now, New Jersey Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman, Democrat, representing the 12th congressional district at Carter from Trenton up through Princeton, Kendall Park, and into the East Brunswick and Plainfield areas. Among many other things, she is co-chair and co-founder of the Congressional Caucus on Black Women and Girls. Congresswoman, we always appreciate when you come on with us. Welcome back to WNYC.

Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman: Well, thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: What was your first reaction upon hearing President Biden's news yesterday?

Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman: Well, I have been supporting him from the very beginning, and I was going to support him to the very end or until he made his decision. I was somewhat disappointed that he ended his campaign. I think President Biden would have beaten Donald Trump when we started talking about issues and not silliness, but I am confident that Kamala Harris will be a great president. She shared the same values as President Biden did. She's shown herself to be brilliant and eloquent and strong. I think that people are going to be very comfortable with her. Democrats know we need to unify, move forward, and win this election for the democracy of this country.

Brian Lehrer: This is happening so quickly. Is it necessarily the best way to defeat Trump, to pass the torch with virtually no competition, no time for polls or public conversations about who's best situated to win, if that's what actually happens here?

Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman: Well, millions of people have already voted for her when they voted for Donald Trump. She's in something and the--

Brian Lehrer: You mean for Joe Biden because it was--

Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman: For Joe Biden. Oh my God.

Brian Lehrer: [laughs]

Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman: Oh my God, yes.

Brian Lehrer: It's the Biden-Harris ticket.

Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman: Tens of millions of people have already voted for her, have confidence in her, recognize her talents. We don't need to vet someone who has already been vetted and has been functioning as the vice president of the United States. We also don't have a lot of time to be engaged in a convoluted process either. Should anything have happened to President Biden during his tenure, she would have been the president of the United States. We already know that she is capable.

Brian Lehrer: One more follow-up on that. Some observers argue that this is how the party got into this mess in the first place. No serious Democrat gave President Biden a challenge for the nomination in the whole last year, even though many had concerns about whether he was slowing down too much to win. Obviously, they don't have those concerns about Harris, but avoiding disunity eventually led to the disunity we've seen since the debate and led to a path to what so many Democrats decided was likely defeat. Is there a risk of that happening again with no comparative process?

Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman: The thing that I think is most significant to people is even when they were questioning whether or not President Biden was up to his old self, strong, healthy, that kind of thing, they very much appreciated all of the great work that he got done in his administration from the Inflation Reduction Act to reducing the out of pocket costs in healthcare, insulin, climate change, all of that stuff. People were very pleased with the president's and the vice president's performance on behalf of this country, so I don't think that there is a question as to whether or not we've got the best candidate right now.

We don't have a lot of time to waste. We must move forward as a unified party and win this election. Our democracy is on the line. There's a binary choice, either you want to support someone who's going to fight like hell to protect our democracy or you're going to support a person who's already demonstrated his autocratic leanings and his threat to be a dictator on the first day. You think about the fact that he's a convicted felon, 35 counts, among other things.

Listen, we must do what's best for this country. I believe that Democrats, independents and even sensible-thinking Republicans. are going to see that a Harris ticket is the way to go.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a few phone calls. Anna, in Manhattan, you're on WNYC with New Jersey Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman. Hi, Anna.

Anna: Hi, Brian. Thank you so much for taking my call. Two quick things. A mix of emotions hearing the news and then quickly thinking about VP picks after I heard talking heads on TV discussing all of these things, and all of a sudden a name popped into my head, which even surprised me. I don't know if it's possible within the rules of the Democratic party, but I'm going to throw it out there. Maybe I'm crazy, I don't know. Adam Kinzinger, he's a Republican. He is relatively young, 41, experienced in Congress, but had the integrity to stand up against his party to be on the January 6th committee, and now has lost his place with the Republican Party. He is a young, white man to balance the ticket with Kamala Harris, and I think it would do well to draw in other Republicans like him, and he has experience and yada, yada, yada.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, that's an interesting name. I hadn't heard anybody float that one before. What do you think about that? That's one of your colleagues in Congress. He's had to leave his seat or not run for reelection because he got so ostracized by his Republican Party, Adam Kinzinger once he joined the January 6th committee. What do you think about that unity ticket?

Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman: Well, I have a tremendous respect for Adam Kinzinger, who is young and has a life ahead of him in public service. I think that there are a lot of very capable, competent, and experienced candidates that we could consider. I think that considering him is also a possibility.

Brian Lehrer: I'll give you another one. Some commentators have said with Trump picking JD Vance, such a testosterone-heavy ticket, if you will, with their personalities and their styles. Maybe Harris should go for Gretchen Whitmer and just bring it on as the two-woman ticket versus the two old-school males and compete like crazy for those white women suburban swing voters. Any thought about that scenario?

Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman: Yes. People have talked about that as well. That's an exciting option as well. I think that Gretchen Whitmore is a very competent, capable, strong woman as well. I certainly would be a test of who we are in this country. I don't think that anyone should not be considered at this moment. I think there are pros and cons for a good half dozen or more candidates that I've heard about and I think that there's got to be discussion about what works best for this country.

Brian Lehrer: A listener immediately writes a text message that says, "No to Kinzinger. You never want a vice president you wouldn't want to have as president." No to Kinzinger, I guess they mean because he is a Republican. Then the listener adds, "He's also from Illinois, not a swing state." Sheila in the West Village. You're on WNYC with New Jersey Congresswoman Bonnie Watson. Coleman. Hi Sheila.

Sheila: Hi. I'm for Cory Booker. I think he's very intelligent. I think he has great integrity. I think he's very charming, and I think he's very quick and I think he would really truly be able to argue with Trump and call him on his lies.

Brian Lehrer: Cory Booker's not running.

Sheila: Maybe I can talk him into it.

Brian Lehrer: [laughs] Okay. Well, how about your New Jersey democratic colleague there, Cory Booker? He's certainly one of the names that's been mentioned, but I guess it brings us back to the point we were discussing before that no leading Democrat is doing anything but endorsing Kamala Harris right now.

Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman: As we should. Cory Booker could also, he is my senator. I love him. I respect him. He certainly could be a vice presidential candidate as well. I think that our best bet is to support Kamala. She's coalescing people all around the country. I was on a call last night with 44,000 women in support of her from all over the country. The issue for us, I believe, is to find the vice presidential candidate that compliments the ticket and speaks to certain constituencies in our country. We have lots of options, and that's the good thing.

Brian Lehrer: Last question, and I know you got to go in a minute. Assuming Harris is the nominee, she will be subject to racist and sexist attacks. Trump, for example, as I'm sure you know, sometimes mispronounces her first name on purpose to make her sound like some exotic other, a little less American somehow for having the name Kamala. What kinds of coded attacks are you expecting, if you have any specifics or ways to prepare for them?

Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman: Well, first of all, everyone knows who Donald Trump is. He has very little respect for women and very little respect, if any, for people of color. We're prepared for that. Kamala Harris was the attorney general of the largest state in this country. She was the district attorney in one of the largest cities in this country. She's been a US senator. She was born as she is, she's lived all of these experiences that we as women of color experience, it's not going to be a problem for her. It's going to be a problem for him because she's going to be bringing the issues to him and his unworthiness to serve this country as a president, and he's going to have to deal with that. I have no concerns about Kamala dealing with whatever his little dog whistles are going to be.

Brian Lehrer: New Jersey Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman. Thank you for starting us off on a historic day. We really appreciate it.

Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman: Thank you for having me. Have a good day.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We'll take many of your calls and texts as we continue our coverage. Our next guest after the break is going to be Gabe Debenedetti, New York Magazine national reporter, who's been following former President Obama's role in the drama of what President Biden was going to do since the debate. Gabe actually wrote a whole book a couple of years ago about the Biden-Obama relationship, and of course, he's covering what will come next as well. Gabe Debenedetti and more of your calls and texts right after this.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, and listeners, we'll keep taking your calls on anything you're thinking or feeling about President Biden ending his reelection bid and what should happen now. 212-433-WNYC call or text. Little breaking news, Illinois Governor JB Pritzker has now endorsed Kamala Harris, according to Politico. Politico says it all but clears the field of potential challengers considering the others who had already coalesced in the last day behind the vice president.

Our next guest is New York Magazine, National Affairs correspondent Gabe Debenedetti. He is author of the book, The Long Alliance: The Imperfect Union of Joe Biden and Barack Obama. He had been reporting recently about contacts between the two of them all during this campaign cycle and Obama's role in Biden's decision to end his campaign. His newest article out today is called The Tragedy and Remaining Hope of the Biden Presidency. Hi, Gabe, welcome back to WNYC.

Gabe Debenedetti: Always great to be here, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: The New York Times had an article Saturday about Biden being really resentful of the role that he believed former President Obama was playing in the movement to get Biden to drop out. This is before he dropped out. With your deep knowledge of their relationship, what's your best understanding of the role Obama did play?

Gabe Debenedetti: Yes, it was very interesting to see how in the last few days a lot of the suspicion that a lot of people around Biden, but including Biden himself, always had about Obama not really seeing him as some political juggernaut, how those came to the fore. The truth is that Obama was not running any operation against Biden or anything like that, but he was speaking with people, including Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, leaders who were doing more behind the scenes to try and put pressure on Biden to drop out.

Obama had been quite concerned about Biden. He'd been spending a little bit of time with him, and he was concerned about the possibility that Democrats could be walking into a situation where they were underarm against Trump, and Obama certainly didn't want to see Trump return. It's a delicate relationship as we've discussed before, and as I've written about extensively, Obama always knew that he was there and that Biden appreciated him as a source of advice, but that his political advice specifically was not always welcome. That dates back a long time, but especially to 2015 when Obama essentially chose Hillary Clinton over his own vice president to be the Democratic nominee in the 2016 election.

There's been some tension there, and in recent weeks we've seen Biden talking with some of the people who were close to him about this idea that Obama never trusted him, and that they never saw eye to eye politically in terms of the big picture and that Obama overlooked Biden. None of this came out in public, and a lot of it is whispers.

Biden has always been very deferential to Obama in public, and Obama has always been supportive of Biden in public, and in fact, has raised a lot of money for this campaign, and was planning to be very active publicly as he often is for Democratic candidates, but that doesn't mean that there isn't significant tension behind the scenes. I suspect that Obama will now play a very interesting role moving forward as the party does appear to be coalescing behind Kamala Harris.

Brian Lehrer: Obama has not yet endorsed Kamala Harris himself, last I saw, like so many other Democrats have done. Some reporting says Obama and Nancy Pelosi preferred a more open process to this rush to coalesce. Do you have any reporting on Obama's thinking about that?

Gabriel Debenedetti: Sure. Obama is someone who never endorses Democrats in primaries. This is a policy of his because he hates weighing in on intra-democratic fights and believes that that's not his best role post-presidency. In this particular case--

Brian Lehrer: I think you said he did do that in 2015, endorsing Hillary to succeed him as president.

Gabriel Debenedetti: Well, he didn't do it formally, and in fact felt-- and of course that was when he was still president, but he did put his thumb on the scale behind the scenes, and got a lot of backlash for that, and that informed his--

Brian Lehrer: Did he do that in any way in 2020, by the way, when there was such a big field of Democratic hopefuls, and of course, Biden eventually won that nomination?

Gabriel Debenedetti: Early on when he found out that Biden was considering running, he said to Biden, "You really don't have to do this." Basically making the case that Biden's legacy was set and being very skeptical of the idea that Biden would be that candidate, but he didn't end up endorsing anyone. He did get interested in a number of different candidates as the 2020 process played out that included at various times Beto O'Rourke, who various Obama people went to go work for, Pete Buttigieg, Elizabeth Warren, at times Kamala Harris.

Only at the end did Obama really come around to embracing Biden, and then in the end was quite helpful in wrapping up that primary in convincing Buttigieg and Amy Klobuchar to drop out before Super Tuesday, which was helpful in terms of Biden finishing the race against Bernie Sanders. Obama then was very helpful for Biden behind the scenes when he became the nominee in wrapping up the nomination, but then also in building a campaign during pandemic times. He doesn't like to play this public role.

Now, what has happened since then, or in the last really 12 hours or so, 24 hours certainly, is that the party seems to have decided on Kamala Harris, but it's not because anyone closed the process. It was always possible for someone else to jump in and it still may happen, but these people have decided, these people who might have run against her have decided that the interest simply isn't there for them to do it in this amount of time. I wouldn't read Obama as necessarily warning about Harris, and he may well endorse her if it looks like she's the only realistic candidate, but I would read his note as a caution to the idea that this is just being handed over to her.

Brian Lehrer: Withholding his endorsement for the moment is being widely reviewed not so much in the way that you just described it as maybe some reservations about Harris, or about rushing to coalesce, but rather as just trying not to look like the Democratic establishment is choosing the nominee, Obama and Pelosi same thing. That's why they and Schumer have been quiet while the many others have gotten behind the vice president immediately just because it helps the vice president if it doesn't look like they're picking her. Does that analysis ring true to you?

Gabriel Debenedetti: Yes, absolutely. I don't have reporting to suggest that Obama is secretly behind Harris or anything like that, but it is technically true that someone else could jump in. You have Marianne Williamson saying she wants to contest the nomination. Technically speaking this is still an open process, and a lot of Democratic leaders see it as their responsibility right now to safeguard that process, and make sure that people don't feel as if they're left without a choice.

If you look back at this Democratic primary over the last year or so, there was a lot of grumbling that there wasn't more of a competitive primary, but of course, someone else could have jumped in to challenge Joe Biden, they just didn't. People at the top ranks of the party are trying to be careful. Of course, we have to keep in mind it's only been a few hours since Biden announced that he was stepping aside. I've been surprised by the way that this seemed to have resolved itself quite quickly, but if a lot of these people end up endorsing her in the time before the convention, no one will remember that there was a lag. This is simply not going to be an important topic.

Again, none of the people who'd been talked about as legitimate possibilities of challenging her have made any noises about doing so, and in fact, most of them have already endorsed her, so that's a vote of confidence in her.

Brian Lehrer: Listener writes, "I wish we could have a messy James Carville style contest mainly to take over the news cycle away from Trump. Trump would fume and implode," writes one listener. Jasper in Central Park, you're on WNYC with Gabe Debenedetti from New York Magazine. Hi, Jasper.

Jasper: Hey, Brian. Thanks for taking my call. Initially, my first reaction to Biden stepping down or stepping out of the race was just pure relief pretty much. I feel like he would've gotten smoked by Trump, and it was just his ego that was keeping him in or something like that, so relief initially. Then as far as Kamala, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember in the 2020 primary that she dropped out before votes were even cast, and she still polls lower than Trump.

She's better than Biden against Trump, but I don't think she's as popular as you might think. It's definitely refreshing and new, but I think that you were speaking about the Open Primary and Pelosi and Obama not endorsing, because they want to see it hashed out. I'm still not sure about that because how democratic really is that process? Like the primaries already happened, it's not like democratic voters will really get to decide.

Brian Lehrer: Well, there are 4,600-something convention delegates, and they are the only official deciders at this point. There could in theory be a mini primary aimed at them, a series of public town halls or whatever else goes on behind the scenes as well which some people had thought might happen. Now, it doesn't look like it's likely to happen with everybody coalescing so quickly around the vice president.

That's how it would happen because yes, there aren't any more primaries, but there are 4,600-something delegates who were chosen in the primaries, and some of them are super delegates chosen by the party who really do have a say here, and that's not zero people even if it's not millions. Jasper, thank you very much for your call. Gabe, anything on that call including the role of the delegates?

Gabriel Debenedetti: Yes, there was a world in which there would've been a messy primary like what we've been talking about, but that was an idea that was primarily put out there by people who didn't necessarily have their finger on the pulse of where the parties leaders themselves actually were, or the party's officials actually were. I heard it a lot from donors who were wary of Harris's ability to win over swing voters. I think on that front we'll see. It's true that her campaign did not do well in 2020, but of course that was a Democratic primary campaign, so we don't know how she'll do with swing voters.

There's plenty of reason for skepticism, but also reason for us to withhold that judgment. I just want to go back to this idea that we already talked about a little bit, but this idea that the party has simply shut down an open process. It's not true. Any one of these people Gretchen Whitmer, JB Pritzker, you name it, Josh Shapiro could have said, "I'm throwing my hat in the ring," but they looked at the scenario and decided not to. Part of any primary, many or not is gathering endorsements.

One of the things that I've been talking about a lot with people was this question over the last few weeks of if Biden were to step aside, if he was going to endorse Harris. Endorsements are always part of this process, and for me, it was always clear that Biden would endorse Harris even if there were questions that he had about her ability to win against Trump, because of the experience that he had with Obama in 2015 and '16.

For Biden, it was always obvious. If you choose someone as your VP, you should endorse them to be president to succeed you. That's what the job is for. The idea that he did it so quickly may have come as a surprise, but of course, it does look as if it was very effective in sending the message that this is where the party should be.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Shelly in Brooklyn with a vice presidential candidate for Kamala Harris to consider, or maybe a category of candidate I should say. Hi, Shelly.

Shelly: Hey, how you doing? The presidential contest is one of many on the national level. We also have trying to keep the Democratic majority in the Senate, so that introduces a tricky question of do we pick a VP candidate if Kamala Harris gets the top billing, who is a sitting senator running for re-election or do we pick from another category of candidate that makes it a little easier of a lift in the Senate races?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, that's a good question. One of the names that gets mentioned prominently is perhaps very attractive because of his background and being in a very swingy state is Arizona Senator Mark Kelly. Most of the others are governors Whitmer, Josh Shapiro, Cooper from North Carolina, and Beshear from Kentucky, but from a keep-the-Senate standpoint and Arizona being very competitive probably in a Senate election if Mark Kelly were to vacate, that's another consideration, right?

Gabriel Debenedetti: It is another consideration, though we should note that Arizona does have a Democratic governor who would appoint his immediate replacement. There would be a special election in 2026, but there would still be a special election in Arizona. That's definitely going to be part of the calculus. As you said, there are a number of governors who are likely to be considered here. Cooper is one who has a little bit of a similar situation because his lieutenant governor is a far right-wing Republican and every time Cooper leaves North Carolina physically, that person becomes acting governor, Mark Robinson. That's something that the Democrats might want to avoid to head off some chaos in a very important swing state come this fall.

If you look at someone like Beshear, or someone like Shapiro, these are absolutely the names that are being considered in a very serious way. You're already seeing them audition for the job. They all endorsed Harris already. A lot of them have been on TV in the last few hours showing off how they would do against JD Vance in a debate. This isn't a subtle process and it shouldn't be. There's only 100 days left or so, so here we go.

Brian Lehrer: Listener on their first reaction when they heard Biden was dropping out, listener writes, "I cried when I heard. Hope Democrats are unified from now on." To that point, your new article in New York Magazine is called The Tragedy and Remaining Hope of the Biden Presidency. All the Democrats are calling Biden a patriot for stepping aside and praising him for a very successful and consequential term in office. What are you referring to with the word tragedy in your title?

Gabriel Debenedetti: Well, that's absolutely true. He may well be remembered for all of that. Not just that, but for also serving with Obama and possibly elevating Harris, who might become the first woman president. The tragedy is the circumstances, which is, one, that it took him a long time to make this recognition that time caught up to him, but also that his presidency will when history has its say, be judged on how this election goes.

There's a big difference in how he'll be remembered and how his policies are set in place, if a Democrat takes over from him or if he turns out to have been the middle of a Trump sandwich, especially now that we know what Trump wants to do in 2025 and six and seven and so on if he's reelected. Biden's central premise when he ran for president in 2020 was to move the country beyond Trump. If Trump wins, he will have failed to have done so. Already, it seems that the country has not moved beyond its deep social division. Biden has accomplished an immense amount, but the tragedy is that it's now out of his hands as to whether he will ultimately be remembered as someone who completed that central promise, or who was unable to.

Brian Lehrer: To the other part of your title, The Remaining Hope of the Biden Presidency. I'll mention that one of the lines of attack now by the Republicans is to say, "Well, if Biden is incapable of running the campaign, then he's incapable of running the presidency and he should resign, not just quit the race." Funny enough, I had heard that in the last few weeks as an argument for a scenario that Biden could undertake in order to help Kamala Harris if she became the nominee. That is, if he resigns and makes her the president as of now, then she's an incumbent president. She can show the country that she's actually doing the job and that's better than just being a candidate. I wonder what you think about this idea of Biden resigning from either party's standpoint?

Gabriel Debenedetti: Well, first, I'll take this from the likelihood perspective. I think it's completely unlikely unless his health really deteriorates in the coming months. It was very obvious from the last month already that he was very resistant to even stepping aside from the campaign. He still thinks he's doing a great job as president. I think we're about to see a lot of goodwill toward him from Democratic voters. His numbers will likely tick up. He's not going to feel a lot of pressure to step aside.

Also, Harris will now be free to basically just be a full-time campaigner. Obviously, the vice presidency is a real job with responsibilities, but given the circumstances, I would expect to have a lot of focus on her on the campaign trail. There is some idea that she would gain the advantages of incumbency if she became president, but I think no one in the Democratic Party is seriously talking about that at this point, again, unless something changes. The question of how Republicans are going to go after her on this front is interesting.

I think it remains to be seen how effective attacks on her for carrying on the Biden legacy and the Biden record will be. She's not someone who is widely associated with some parts of the Biden record, but the Trump people have made clear that they want to focus on her role when it comes to immigration and illegal immigration in particular, and of course, on the economy. The question of whether or not she will have the presidency and the record of this presidency around her candidacy as a central fact, that will happen no matter what.

I think we can move on from the idea that he'll step down unless of course, something changes within his health or something that we don't know about.

Brian Lehrer: New York Magazine National Affairs correspondent Gabe Debenedetti. He's also author of the book The Long Alliance: The Imperfect Union of Joe Biden and Barack Obama. Gabe, thanks a lot.

Gabriel Debenedetti: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: We have a few minutes now with New York Congressman Adriano Espaillat, representing Upper Manhattan and parts of the nearby Bronx. Congressman, we always appreciate when you come on with us. Welcome back to WNYC.

Congressman Adriano Espaillat: Thank you, Brian. Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: What was your first reaction upon hearing President Biden's news yesterday? I don't think you were one of those who had stepped up publicly to call for him to drop out.

Congressman Adriano Espaillat: No, that's correct. I felt that he had a great record, that my district, the 13th congressional district was really hammered by the pandemic, and he was there to help us and to save lives. I felt a deep connection with that. The only one that could have changed my mind was President Biden, and he did that. [chuckles] Once he announced that, of course, this morning I announced that I will be backing Kamala Harris for president. I believe that the 13th congressional district will be overwhelmingly in support of her.

Brian Lehrer: I don't think the 13th congressional district is what Kamala Harris has to worry about in upper Manhattan and the Bronx. A listener writes, "I'm very disappointed with this top-down coalescing around Harris. Harris needs challengers to demonstrate she has what it takes to beat Trump. If she can't fend off those challenges, how will she contend with questions swing voters might have?" What would you say to the listener who wrote that?

Congressman Adriano Espaillat: We cannot fabricate challengers. The process allows for challengers to step forward if they like to. The fact of the matter is that she also has the ability and the right to seek support, and to go out to the delegates, to the elected officials, to the party leaders, to the governors, to the house members, the representative community groups, and ask them for their support. That's what democracy-- what more from the bottom up is, that I call a union member, that I call a party leader or a community activist and ask them for their support. That's what she's doing.

Anybody else that wants to run, they have the ability to do that if they like. We cannot fabricate an opponent and say, just for the sake of having her have a debate. I think she'll have plenty of debates as the process moves forward, but I think she will be our nominee. In fact, I think the exciting part of this is that she can pick a new VP candidate, and there's a host of potential candidates out there that will strengthen the team, and I'm looking forward to that debate as well.

Brian Lehrer: Anybody at the top of your list for vice president?

Congressman Adriano Espaillat: Not yet, really. I met Shapiro, who's the governor of Pennsylvania. He seems like a strong candidate. I've met some of the other candidates, but I think it's a wide-open discussion that strengthens the concept of from the bottom up. The convention I think will be that platform will culminate that discussion. Everybody has the opportunity to weigh in.

Brian Lehrer: A number of listeners writing, "Against the idea that came up with the last guest at the end of Biden resigning to make Kamala the President for the moment and give her the advantage of incumbency. Listener writes, "No, no, no, no, no." Five nos. "No resignation. He's a human being for God's sake." Another one writes, "If Kamala became president now, it would put Mike Johnson next in line for president. Bad idea." A couple of those right there. Trump people are already attacking Harris as the so-called border czar, which was not her role, by the way, and the most liberal democratic nominee ever. What's the defense against either of those things?

Congressman Adriano Espaillat: First and foremost, one sector says that she's too progressive, another sector says that she's too much of a moderate. I think she has a little bit of both. That's what the American people want. I think they don't necessarily want an ideologue, a philosopher per se. They want somebody that's practical and will be able to take practical positions on each of the issues. With regards to immigration, I think she was given a very defined and small and narrow task regarding immigration. It wasn't to tackle the entire immigration issue, it was to study what were the root causes of immigration in those Central American countries. I think we know that now. We know what they are.

We're not splicing atoms now. We know that violence, gang violence in some of those country pushes a mom to travel 2,000 miles with her kids. We know that if you have a seven-year drought, there will be a full security issue that will push people to the border. We know that these are the challenges that are there in those countries.

Brian Lehrer: Do you think she's been able to make any progress on that part of the migration portfolio that was her role as you've been describing, helping those countries in Latin America to improve conditions enough that not so many people need to leave?

Congressman Adriano Espaillat: Yes. I think that some steps were placed as some initiatives were placed to ensure that we helped them. One of them was to increase access to legal pathways. We saw for a bit there, a reduction in the number of people that showed up at the border when we had a greater, legal pathways to apply for asylum. That's one of them. Of course, there's others that are investment-related and nearshoring and creating jobs and bringing back some of those jobs from Asia to Latin America, to counter also China's incursion in Latin America. These are more long-term challenges that we as a nation face.

I don't think she did a bad job. She wasn't given the full scope of the whole immigration debate. I think that was left pretty much to Congress, both the House and the Senate. We saw how the Senate took up an exclusive almost border security bill that the Republicans turned down. Time and time again, we are in the House have taken up some level of immigration reform, bits and pieces of immigration reform initiative because immigration is a very broad and complicated issue. It's not a one-issue debate. Again, the House Republicans have shot it down. This is a legislative fix.

Now, Biden went ahead and he put forward a couple of executive orders that help address some of these issues because there's no political will in Congress to tackle it.

Brian Lehrer: I know you got to go in a minute. One last question after one last text. Listener writes, "Reminder that Kamala Harris has won every one of her elections, except if you count running in the Democratic primaries for President in 2020. That's true." Do you anticipate certain kinds of racist and sexist attacks on her, maybe framed as dog whistles that are just indirect, that they at least attempt to have deniability around them? Anyone's in particular, and how would you help her fight them off?

Congressman Adriano Espaillat: No question about her. If you think that Obama had it bad, this is a Black woman who's also, by the way, has Asian and Jamaican descent. That crowd that was in Milwaukee, you could expect just about anything from them. We'll be there to back her. Let me tell you, she'll take a punch and she'll give one back. My money goes with her. I think she's a great candidate. I endorse her today. I know that the 13 congressional district, although is not a swing district, it's very much part of the hardcore base of our party that we meet there before we even go to swing districts. We will be supporting her.

Brian Lehrer: Congressman Adriano Espaillat from Upper Manhattan in the Bronx. Thank you so much for giving us a few minutes today on short notice.

Congressman Adriano Espaillat: Thank you. I appreciate that.

 

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