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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. For our last 15 minutes today-- Can we solve this in 15 minutes? We are asking the question, do you believe in God? Why, if so? Why not if not? If you're an agnostic, why are you that? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. We're doing this, as I mentioned a little earlier in the hour, following some what I think were really interesting conversations about religion and faith and community on the show recently because of Ramadan and the Eid and Passover, which ends today, and Easter, which for non-Orthodox Christians was last Sunday. We know Orthodox Easter is coming this Sunday.

Last Friday, we talked about members of Gen X, little more than before, seeking out religious institutions, joining them, largely to find community in this isolating time in our country, in our world. We noticed when we did a follow-up call-in on Monday that asked, well, if you don't belong to a religious institution, with so many people citing community as a reason that they do, where do you find community if you don't belong to a religious institution? What we found that day was a lot of people who did not belong to religious institutions also wanted to say, "Hey, I don't believe in God."

We thought, okay, as one more follow-up in this set, we will open up the phones and just let you go at it. This isn't a debate, it's just an honest question. What has convinced you if you're a believer or a non-believer, or if you're an agnostic? For my part, I consider myself an agnostic, which means I don't know if God exists or not. I don't think I can know. I don't see evidence for anything supernatural. I also think there may be levels of consciousness and spiritual dimensions that human beings cannot see, or at least that I can't see. I land on "I don't know." I'm not here to argue the agnostic case. As I say, this is not a debate segment, just disclosing to help set up the conversation for you.

If you're sure that God or gods exist, or you feel sure that they don't, what makes you so sure? Do you try to prove it to others? 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692. We can go down the pecking order here, too. If you believe in God, how do you know there's one God? Maybe, like in Greek mythology, there are many gods. Do you think God is benign? Given all these famines and wars and injustices all the time, in addition to the good stuff about life, how do you know that your religion believes in God the right way? Because we could get into those differences. Basically, are you a believer? Are you an atheist? Are you agnostic? How do you know? What's your evidence for your position? We'll take your calls and texts right after this.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. All right, believe in God, atheist, agnostic. Let me start this off with a note we got about a listener who is a believer and derives their belief from math, believe it or not. Listener was so moved by the 18th century mathematician Leonhard Euler's attempt to find God in numbers that they have Euler's identity tattooed on their body. That's the equation e^iπ + 1 = 0. As if you didn't know.

Reading from the Euler's Identity Wikipedia page, Euler's identity is often cited as an example of deep mathematical beauty. Three of the basic arithmetic operations occur exactly once each, addition, multiplication, and exponentation. The identity also links five fundamental mathematical constants. The Wikipedia article continues by quoting Stanford math professor Keith Devlin, "Like a Shakespearean sonnet that captures the very essence of love or a painting that brings out the beauty of the human form that is far more than just skin deep, Euler's equation reaches down into the very depths of existence." Yes, this person said to me that math is how and why I believe in God. On the other hand, we have Charlotte in Jersey City. Hi, Charlotte, you're on WNYC.

Charlotte: Hi, lifelong atheist. As you said, what's my evidence? It's hard to prove a negative. I don't think there is any evidence for God. Therefore, I don't believe in God. The agnostic question, if somebody says, "Aren't you searching for meaning somehow? Don't you really mean you're an agnostic?" I just say, "No." I don't get into an argument with them. I have lovely friends. I do a lot of volunteering. I've been out at Delaney Hall, where a lot of religious groups come, church groups and stuff, to also volunteer.

I don't proselytize. They're wonderful people doing wonderful things. I have noticed that when I have one-on-one conversations out there, people will whisper, "Actually, I'm an atheist." Sometimes it's because they want community, and they join the church. Also, they don't broadcast it because people don't like to hear it. [inaudible 00:06:31] I brought--

Brian Lehrer: Charlotte, I'm going to leave it there. Get it. Good thoughts. Going to get some other people on. Theodore in Princeton, a believer, I think. Theodore, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Theodore: Hello, Brian. I'm a longtime listener. 1991, first-time caller.

Brian Lehrer: Glad you're on, finally. This is what brought you out, God.

Theodore: [laughs] Yes, I'm a big believer. I'm an autodidact, autodidaktos in Greek. I paint, and I do the physics. Like Leonardo da Vinci. I wanted to explain to you. Einstein said, without religion, science is blind and lame, and vice versa. The way I see it in my theory, what I'm working on, Hawking was spot on with the loss of information. I feel. If you look the other way from the singularity, which is zero, how do you get a point, two points, three dimensions, and then time? Is it the same mechanism? Everything from the dimensions that fold mathematically, we know we have the solutions for that. Once they're folded, once they're twisted, turned from the plank length on up in different energy levels, you can't go through anymore.

Brian Lehrer: You're very in the weeds on this, and it's really interesting, but I think you told our screener that the bottom line here is how do you take nothing and create from that? There must be a God. If I have that right, where did that God come from?

Theodore: Right. In philosophy throughout all the ages, there's a first mover. I can't take a zero and make a one. Not me. I don't believe. Maybe it's a thing of faith. You have to have faith. Again, first movement in physics, where once the dimensions are-- I want to explain, folded, you can't go through. We go around everything. Buddha's illusion. Jesus made everything from nothing. Is that okay? [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: [chuckles] That'll have to do. Thank you very much. Canmei. Did I say that right? In Holmdel, you're on WNYC. Oh, I must have said it wrong because they're not there. Joe in Litchfield, you're on WNYC. Hi, Joe.

Joe: Hi, Brian. Thanks. I grew up-- excuse me, in the Dark Ages back in Florida. My parents were Baptists and then Presbyterians. I remember when I was in college, I went to a service after Kennedy was assassinated, and I asked the reverend, preacher, I don't remember what church it was, "Why didn't you mention the police officer that was killed?" He said, "Well, Kennedy's important." That struck me, thinking maybe there's something missing. I find that believing what I believe in, what gives me great sustenance, is the people that either I know of or I've crossed in life, that make things work. One is my daughter. My daughter's, I think, 60 now, and she lives in Senegal. She joined the Peace Corps and never came home.

Brian Lehrer: What does that have to do with whether there's a God or not?

Joe: It has to do with believing in people that-- She runs a national program that feeds kids in all of Senegal. I believe in people who do that sort of thing. They give me the sustenance for a moral guidance, ethical life, not--

Brian Lehrer: Not belief in a supernatural being. All right. Rich in Mahopac. A believer, I see. Hi, Rich. You're on WNYC.

Rich: Yes. How are you doing? Yes, I am a firm believer in God, and I believe in one God, and that his name is Jesus. I have proof. I have a relationship with him. I have prayed, and he has answered. People have prayed for me. I was sick, had terrible, excruciating headaches, and going to the doctor, many doctors, they did all the scans, couldn't find out what was wrong with me. One of my church brothers prayed for me, and I was instantly healed.

Brian Lehrer: What would you say to a lot of people who believe in Jesus and prayed to him and didn't get healed?

Rich: He's in charge, right? It's prerogative whether you get healed or not. He has a reason for everything because he is God. If you pray and you don't get healed, and it could be your unbelief, because you have to have faith to be healed. You have to believe that you're going to be healed. It could be something like that.

Brian Lehrer: Rich, thank you very much. Stephen in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Stephen.

Stephen: Hi. I'm a psychiatrist, and I've done forensic psychiatry and been looking at what goes on in the minds of human beings for over 50 years now. One of the things I learned is that we take data that comes to us and then put it into a formulation. I've seen a lot of data that we can call fact. Then I've seen 5, 7, 10 different people take the same data, and they come out to different conclusions from it.

One of the things I learned being on the stand from the prosecutors who want to make their things weak is when a prosecutor asks me, "Doctor, do you believe?" I stopped him and immediately say, "No, I don't believe." Belief is a leap of faith. It was a 17th or 18th-century French philosopher who talked about the necessity to believe requiring a leap of faith. The leap is a leap beyond information.

The final thing that went into my whole thing about that came when my grandson was born in 2020. I got to see him for the first time when he was about a month old. He's out in California. I went out there, I went over, he was sleeping. He woke up, my son brought him in. I was sitting on the couch. My son asked me a question that is the only question I've ever had that only has one answer. He said, "Do you want to hold him?" Of course, my answer was, "Yes."

Brian Lehrer: Right. We only have 10 seconds left in the show. How do you know that there isn't some other spiritual level that you could see where there's a God? Literally five seconds.

Stephen: The reality was I've had good relations with infants, and I tried to get--

Brian Lehrer: I have to leave it there. I'm sorry. Thanks for your calls on your belief or non-belief.

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