Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. On this day after Labor Day, as back-to-school season kicks in, we are very happy to have with us the New York City Schools Chancellor, Melissa Aviles-Ramos. She took over from former Chancellor David Banks last school year. By way of background, for those of you who don't know her, according to her bio page, Chancellor Aviles-Ramos began her career as an English teacher at Harry S. Truman High School in the Bronx. She later served as principal at Schuylerville Prep and then became the acting superintendent for Bronx high school districts 8, 10 and 11.

She is an up-the-ranks story from the classroom all the way to the chancellorship. The chancellor will answer just like Senator Kim in the previous segment, some of my questions and some of yours. Parents, with your kids home just two more days, teachers setting up your classrooms, you'll get first priority, but anyone else relevant, you can call and text a question to 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Chancellor Aviles-Ramos, thanks so much for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: Thank you so much. It's great to be here with you.

Brian Lehrer: I have to ask you first, something I've heard from a few New York City parents in the last day. School in the suburbs around here generally started for the kids today, the day after Labor Day. Some even started last week, but for kids in the city, the parents who work outside the home have to find two more days of childcare. What would you say to parents who want that changed to be today, next year, the Tuesday after Labor Day?

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: Yes, Brian, that's such a great question. As a mom of a New York City public school student myself, I understand the struggle. We work really closely with our union partners to ensure that our calendar takes into account preparation for teachers to come back into their classrooms and have professional learning, and set everything up. Also takes into account the holidays. We've added holidays into the calendar, and it's a really complicated task to make sure that we deliver on it on the calendar. A lot of thought goes into it. A lot of great union work, from Henry Rubio to Michael Mulgrew and Henry Garrido at our major union partners, goes into it.

I understand the struggle. I do, but we also have to make sure that we're giving everybody ample opportunity to set up.

Brian Lehrer: One big thing this year, the latest requirements in the state's smaller class size law. I know listeners, you all wanted me to ask about the cell phone ban. We'll get to that, or you can do it yourself. 212-433-WNYC 433-9692. The latest requirements in the state's smaller class size law, this has been kicking in gradually for a few years. For people who don't know, 80% of the new requirements have to be met by next fall, as I understand it. There are shortages of both teachers and classroom space. How are you addressing it?

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: Yes, so I'm actually really proud of the work that we've done. This school year, our schools received around $450 million to support with hiring and converting offices that are large into class size and other spaces. We quite simply said to our principals before we go in, rather than do a top-down approach, we want to make sure that you're serving your programming, your hiring practices, your space and telling us what it is that you need to comply with the law. We made this opportunity available.

The principal submitted proposals to us, we worked with the CSA, with the UFT to sign off on them. It wasn't just me signing off on them. We had to make sure that there was strong partnership with Michael Mulgrew and Henry Rubio in saying, yes, this proposal is sound, it makes sense. We're going to give you the money to do what you have to do. In some cases, that looked like hiring new teachers and new administrators to support those teachers, again, it could be where there was a large office space or other space that needed to be converted into a classroom.

That's a big part of being in compliance. We're currently in compliance. Those conversations with union partners need to continue in order for us to be in full compliance as the years go by.

Brian Lehrer: Are you personally, if you're willing to take a stand for that law? I think Mayor Adams has been skeptical of it, and some other people saying smaller class sizes are good, but it will require so much money to implement that fully under the new law. That it's going to take too much money away from other things that would make more of a difference. How close to that position are you?

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: It is very costly, but as a teacher myself, I do know the benefit to having a smaller class size. That's one of the great things about having a chancellor who's actually done all of these positions. I can empathize with everyone, but it's also when we think about how we're supporting teachers, it goes beyond just having a small class size. It also comes down to professional learning and support that we're giving them. When we look at some of our key initiatives, like New York City Reads and New York City Solves, we're also giving them coaching.

On top of having a smaller class, you're also getting the support. There are a lot of things that can make teaching difficult and can make it easier, but I want to remind everyone, it's a law, so regardless of how we feel about it, we have to comply. That's why I'm so proud of the partnership we have with our unions, because we work in close concert with them to make sure that we're complying with the law.

Brian Lehrer: Listener texts, please address how the Department of Education is addressing the cuts to after-school programming from the federal level. A specific question is Project Pivot, which you could tell the rest of the listeners what that is still operating and how can schools gain access to those service providers? I guess the first question out of that text is, is that one of the areas of federal funding cuts, have you lost money for after-school programs in New York City?

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: I want to just set the record straight. There was a previous expansion of community schools that was done using stimulus dollars, which we knew would sunset at some point, and this administration actually restored the funding for those. We have prioritized a lot of these after-school supports. We just recently launched After School for All with DYCD. Keith Howard is an amazing partner. I also want to remind everyone that when we found out last year that the state wasn't able to continue funding some of those programs, we stepped in and we funded them as well.

Regardless of what's happening at the federal level, which we continue to keep an eye on, I have an amazing legal and policy team that supports us in collaboration with city hall and really looking at the implications that any executive order has on our system, we ourselves have invested heavily because we know, again, I'm a mom, we know how important afterschool programs are not only for our parents who need that support, but also for our kids who need those extracurricular activities. From homework help to building socialization to engaging with their peers around topics and interests that really motivate and incentivize school for them.

Brian Lehrer: What do you think about this follow-up to the question about when school starts, meaning three days after Labor Day instead of the day after? Listener writes, it's time to stand up to the UFT. You talked about the reason being collaboration with your union partners. Listener writes, parents are fed up with excuses. If Trump were in charge, teachers would already be back in classrooms today. Families deserve action.

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: Well, what I would say is that teachers are the ones who are with our children every single day, and principals have a heavy lift of making sure that teachers have what they need. This isn't about not standing up to unions. As a matter of fact, I am thrilled with the partnership that I have with all of our unions. It is something that helps us get stuff done. I understand that the extra two days are-- It's difficult. Again, I have to find child care. It is difficult, but in the larger scheme of things and looking at the bigger picture, that preparation is going to make all the difference for your child to have a better experience.

Brian Lehrer: Now we're going to get to the cell phone ban. I mentioned in the break before you came on our weekly Brian Lehrer show newsletter with a reader question every week. Our reader question last week was, if you're a New York City parent or educator, do you support or anywhere in New York state, because it's a state policy, I gather. I said in advance of your appearance today, do you support the bell-to-bell cell phone ban? We got 26 replies. 24 of them said yes, they do support.

For example, Michelle, a parent in Brooklyn, writes, giving children smartphones is like giving them cigarettes and saying, "Okay, be careful with those." Let's see. Another parent in Brooklyn, Mary, writes, "In my opinion, there is no downside to the span for parents worried about emergencies. The students should be paying attention to the situation and directions from staff, not their cell phones." One of the two negative ones.

Marjorie, a parent in Queens, writes, "My children's high school had a good system that worked, putting the phones in pouches as they entered class and taking them as they left. This allowed organized students to use their phones as planners, receive urgent messages from external coaches and internship after-school programs, including cancellations and and for students applying to college scholarships, et cetera."

This bell-to-bell nonsense with the yonder pouches will cause delays for students at arrival. Dismissal will cause them to waste more time going over messages and emails after school. That email goes on. What's your position, and how do you plan to enforce it?

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: Over half of our schools have already restricted devices long before the law. Again, it is New York state law now, and so we will be compliant just like with class size. What we needed to do was pause during last school year to really do some deep engagement. I don't know if you remember, Brian. There was a big push for us to call for the ban even prior to the law. Mayor Adams and I agreed and decided that we were going to use the year for engagement. For example, what does that mean? It means if I want to call my daughter's school, I want to make sure that someone picks up because if I need to get an urgent message to her, she shouldn't be looking at her phone.

Somebody in the school can get that message to her if there's an adjustment in pickup or an adjustment in the location she has to report to. We had to make sure that the schools were prepared to do that, particularly those where kids could access their phones during the day. That was step one. Step two was also listening to our kids. This is a detox for them. Some of them are like, "This is how I socialize and communicate, and I'm responsible for it with it."

We want them to understand that this is an opportunity for them to use technology in a safe way that is going to foster innovation in the classroom, but that these distractions of social media and conversing with friends and all the other things that has to wait, that has a time and place. Where we already have seen device restrictions, we know that attendance is generally higher. We know that engagement is higher. I speak of this from experience. When I was a principal, I collected cell phones, and my kids actually talked in the cafeteria because they didn't have their phones.

We have seen success in this. There is an amazing school in Maspeth that I have visited, that they do excellent collection as well. I understand that this is an adjustment for a little less than half of the schools in our system. It really is with great intentions, and I think it was Mary in Brooklyn. I hope I'm not mixing up her name, but if I'm correct, when she said we want to make sure that there's streamlined messaging in the event of an emergency as well. Part of this preparation was making sure that our communication system, the Gamma system, can send out messages in real time and update families with accurate and relevant information in the event of an emergency as well.

Brian Lehrer: I've already heard from my parents' network of kids planning to use their Chromebooks or other laptops or tablets, I guess, which are not banned and set up Google Docs to chat during the school day. Do you know about that workaround, and is there something the schools should do about that?

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: The beauty of having a school-age child is that I generally see it all. The innovation in our children to get around the adults is always adjusting in real time. We continue to monitor that. We continue to work with DIIT, our instructional technology folks, and with superintendents to make sure that we're putting on the right guardrails for when we are using technology in the classrooms.

Brian Lehrer: Listener texts, on smaller class sizes, can your guests speak to the fact that when I was in school years ago, my school class ranged from 40 to 48 students from first through eighth grade? No one flunked out. I don't know if we really know that. Nobody flunked out. Why do schools now need classes of fewer than 25 students? Asks that listener.

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: Well, I can tell you that not every student in large classes pass. I don't know what school that listener is talking about, and I'd love to see the data. From my own experience overseeing 39 schools as a deputy and then acting superintendent and just having my own school as principal, when you have larger class sizes and less teacher support, let's be clear, it's not just lowering class size. There needs to be comprehensive support for teachers as well. Which is why when we rolled out Reads and Solves, we wanted to make sure coaching was a key component to it.

We do know that students learn better in those conditions. Again, you want teachers to be able to have small group instruction. You want them to be able to do formative assessment. Think of formative assessment like a coach. You don't want to wait until the game is over to tell someone that they did not do well. You want to be able to give them real-time feedback while they're practicing so they can improve their craft, improve their game. That's the kind of teaching that we want to see in our schools.

That's amazing that 48 students, students in a class never failed, and that's awesome, but from our experience, we have not always seen that. We want to make sure that individualized small group instruction is a possibility. That's not always the case when you have large classes for teachers.

Brian Lehrer: Does it depend to some degree on the socioeconomic status of the kids in the school that may be from wealthier? However, you want to characterize, more high-functioning neighborhoods in an educational context. It's easier to put a lot of kids in a classroom and have no one flunk out. Whereas I think one of your initiatives has been fairly or equally, I don't want to use the wrong word, distributing resources. We know how lower-income schools can be under-resourced. Whether it's because they don't have the-- The parents don't have the money to contribute to the PTA in the same way to get a lot of extra help or whatever. Is socioeconomic status an issue here?

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: There is no question that there are some districts that have greater challenges than others when it comes to socioeconomics and parents' involvement. When it comes to class size and children benefiting from smaller group instruction, all kids can benefit from that. I have seen kids struggle in specialized schools and screen schools, especially if we're talking from a social-emotional perspective. We want to make sure that our kids are not being lost and that if something is going on in a child's life, that that adult in the room notices a shift.

If you have 40 to 48 kids in a classroom, that might not be possible. This only isn't only about academics. This is also about making sure that there is an opportunity for children to develop meaningful relationships with their teachers, not just their counselors. We can't just put that on one job title in the school. It is everyone's responsibility in a school building to make sure that they're looking out for kids. This ensures that teachers have a better opportunity to do that. That's one thing.

Thank you for bringing up NYCPS Cares. Yes, it is an initiative that I launched. As I see it, this is the type of initiative that's going to actually improve the impact of other initiatives like New York City Reads and Solves. Because when kids are struggling, and again, it's not just kids, but from one socioeconomic background, there are kids who battle depression from affluent backgrounds and who go to specialized schools. Depression and dealing with trauma is something that is not reserved for just one socioeconomic bracket.

Now, we do know that kids who are coming from impoverished communities and don't necessarily know where their next meals are coming from or if they are in temporary housing, they have additional struggles, but childhood and adolescent development are difficult even without those factors. We want to make sure that we are paying attention to how we're supporting our children holistically. It's not just about the academics, because if they are not feeling welcomed and supported in school buildings, then all the great things that we're doing instructionally and curricular-wise are not going to-- They're not going to last.

Brian Lehrer: On the cell phone ban, and that workaround that we mentioned, listener writes, in Connecticut. I guess they're in Connecticut. Granted in an affluent community, all kids have laptops, mostly Apple kids just text on their laptops. A part of the equation is parents need to be disciplined to text them only when it's imperative. Someone else writes, well, actually, that one disappeared from my screen. We're going to go on to Ana in Manhattan. You're on WNYC with New York City Schools Chancellor Melissa Aviles-Ramos. Hi, Ana.

Ana: Hi. Good morning. Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: Yes.

Ana: Oh, great. Hi, Good morning, Chancellor-

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: Good morning.

Ana: Melissa Aviles-Ramos. Good morning. It's such a pleasure to hear you online. I do hope you come often to this wonderful show, this wonderful station. It really just is a breath of fresh air to see you here. I'm bringing up something that you may or may not be familiar with, and we are-- We luckily have gained some space, and we're in the process of implementing classroom size law in our school, Columbia Secondary School. I'm reaching out to you because there were petitions and student sit-ins that occurred in the month of June, and we have had several meetings with the district.

The district has been present at our school as well as the CSA. However, we don't have any sense of direction at the start of the school year. You may or may not be familiar, but our school, half of the school students is Black or Hispanic, a third are white. About half of the Columbia student population is economically disadvantaged. One in five students are having a classification in a disability of some sort. In fact, it'll be higher this year because I know there has been an increase.

Brian Lehrer: Ana, let me get you to the end of this point. What's your question for the chancellor?

Ana: There is already evidence of lack of compliance with some of the new stipulations that have been put in place, such as the creation of committees so that the principal and the AP Zach Lynn we're supposed to implement in terms of communication, special needs curriculum, tighter communication with the teachers. None of that has--

Brian Lehrer: You want the chancellor-- The front office of the school system to intervene.

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: You know what, Brian? [crosstalk]

Ana: We've been trying to reach the chancellor's office.

Brian Lehrer: Trying to reach the chancellor. Obviously, we can't verify here with one caller whether the allegations that she makes about her school leadership are true, but we have the allegations. Chancellor, what do you say and maybe about parents or PTAs in general who want to get in touch with you?

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: Ana, I am so glad that you called, and I'm so glad that we connected. Thank you for taking the time to do that. I am familiar with the situation, and I have been meeting with my team to get updates. I am going to tell you this. I am going to promise. I am promising not going to. I am promising that I am going to go to the school and meet with leadership myself and with certain members of the team. That is already something that's top of mind for me. This is something that's important when we think about real stakeholder engagement.

As a matter of fact, I told my Chancellor's Parent Advisory Council that school leadership teams are not just compliance bodies. We need to make sure that they are really functioning and that they are actually given an opportunity to meaningfully contribute to the school community. It won't only be with school leadership. I actually would like to meet with the SLTs of the school and other parent leaders so I can truly get a 360 view of what's going on. I want to thank you for escalating this. I promise you that I am definitely someone who is in the weeds of things, and that I will go myself.

Brian Lehrer: To other parents from other schools who are-

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: From other parents, I have--

Brian Lehrer: -listening, and saying, "Oh, and boy, does my school have problems too."

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: You know what? This is why escalations are so important. We can only triage what we know about. Please make sure that you are talking to your superintendent. You are calling 311. You are going to your CECs, your community education councils. You are going to the panel for educational policy meetings. If you review some of those meetings, you will see that when a parent stands up and says that something is wrong, I have made promises and delivered to actually go and see for myself. We can only support and fix what we know about. That's why parents' empowerment is so important.

Brian Lehrer: We have about three minutes left. I want to touch at least two other things real briefly. They're both huge and could be segments in their own rights. One important thing this year, your commitment to protecting kids from detention for deportation. I know you've been involved in that issue in the last school year. What power do you have over ICE on school grounds or with relationship to students, even elsewhere out of the school buildings? How do you intend to use it?

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: Yes. We have really been holding a lot of know your rights trainings for families as well as know their rights trainings for our staff, including parent coordinators, principals and school safety agents. Always want to thank Commissioner Tisch for her partnership there. Non-local law enforcement cannot enter a school building without a judicial warrant. Now, that also means if a school is hosting prom or graduation off-site, same rules apply. Non-local law enforcement cannot just come in and take children. We also are not saying, hey, school safety agent or parent coordinator who's covering entry at a school. You have to figure out if this document that an ICE agent is putting in front of you is actually a judicial warrant. That is unacceptable. We have a protocol in place where a principal can quickly contact a field counsel, and field counsel will be able to discern whether this is an actual judicial warrant, and if it is, then there's another protocol where families have to be contacted.

Again, not just imagining people just marching through the school. We've been very clear on that communication, and we are committed to continuing that communication because a lot of the fear comes from not knowing what your rights are and not knowing that the non-local law enforcement officers cannot come into the schools. The other thing is, we have heard of cases where students and families have been detained. We work very quickly with the family's permission to connect them to resources to help them get representatives. Project Rousseau has been an amazing partner. NYIC has been a great partner. There are just lots of community support out there that help our parents get connected to the right resources. We consider it our charge to make sure that we are helping them by connecting them to those resources.

Brian Lehrer: Last question. This comes from the conservative think tank the Manhattan Institute, a report they released this summer covered by the New York Post, which says the Department of Education's $100 million push to implement restorative justice instead of stricter school discipline has been a bust, with police incidents doubling to 4,200 reports this year and chronic absenteeism spiking to a whopping 35%. Citing the report. It says what began as an alternative became a mandate forcing administrators to abandon exclusionary options regardless of school context. Your response?

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: Our chronic absenteeism has actually gone down. It is not at the pre-pandemic levels, but it has definitely gone down since those numbers were cited. Additionally, what I would say is that yes, there is room for improvement in how we roll out restorative justice. It is not an either-or approach. We need to make sure that when suspension is warranted, and it's very clearly outlined in the discipline code, that there is still a restorative justice approach to welcoming a student back into a building.

Students need to know that mistakes do not define them and that they can restore and repair their relationship with the school community. The school community also needs to use restorative practices to question why the student even committed the act that caused harm with the community. Restorative justice, one of the first things I did was meet with the team and discuss how we are rolling this out. Is training just for people who raise their hands and say, I want to implement this in the school? No, that's not acceptable. We're looking at data. We are making sure that schools are getting the support if their data is indicating that they need the support.

Brian Lehrer: Do you agree with the conclusion of the report that the new system ultimately did not lead to, "A shift from punishment to compassion, but the dismantling of the systems that had maintained basic classroom stability?"

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: I think that there is always room for improvement when we are rolling out any initiative. I think that we need to take a look at the training that we are doing, which we are. We're looking at the training and making sure that we are supporting our kids. We are supporting our teachers with how to support our children. Sometimes kids commit an act that's not good, but that doesn't mean that the kid is not good. We have to make sure that schools have systems in place to welcome kids back, to support kids through these mistakes without judging them for an action.

Brian Lehrer: The New York City Schools Chancellor, Melissa Aviles-Ramos, we really appreciate your accessibility. I know our callers and texters appreciate it. I'm sure the whole parent and educator community appreciates it. Thank you very much for coming on. We, of course, don't know who's going to be the school's chancellor after the election, but maybe you'll come on again during the school year. We'll see how things go politically. Thank you very much for coming on and answering so many questions today. Good luck as school starts on Thursday.

Melissa Aviles-Ramos: Thank you so much, Brian. A pleasure to be here.

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