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Matt Katz: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Matt Katz, reporter in the WNYC Gothamist newsroom, filling in for Brian today. Governor Kathy Hochul decided to postpone the implementation of congestion pricing last week. As we know, that plan would have enacted a toll for drivers in Manhattan below 60th Street, but New Jersey had already sued New York to stop the plan. We're wondering how that news was received on the other side of the Hudson. We'll get Governor Phil Murphy's take on that and more with Nancy Solomon, who hosted last night's monthly edition of Ask Governor Murphy.

It's a call-in show, airs once a month on WNYC and public radio stations in Philly and elsewhere in New Jersey. Nancy joins Brian the morning after each of those shows, typically for excerpts and analysis in your calls. Other topics that Governor Murphy and Nancy talked about last night included a new law that makes public records harder to get, mounting frustrations with the New Jersey Transit price hike, clemency, and a strain of cannabis named in honor of the governor. New Jersey listeners specifically, feel free to weigh in on any of this. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, you can call or text that number. Hi there, Nancy.

Nancy Solomon: Matt Katz, this is going to be fun.

Matt Katz: I'm looking forward to it. Nancy, when are you getting a strain of cannabis named after you for all of your amazing work in New Jersey and covering New Jersey, to be [unintelligible 00:01:46]

Nancy Solomon: I was highly critical of the governor for not bringing in a sample because I had brought in beer a few months ago because the Brewers Association had printed beer cans that said, "Sign the bill Phil beer," because he had not signed a bill they wanted. We opened the beer and we had a little sip on the air, and I'm like, "Where's the cannabis? Come on, man. I brought you beer."

Matt Katz: If you guys sparked it up or took bong hits together on the air, then nobody would have been talking about congestion pricing this morning. We would have all been talking about that. [chuckles]

Nancy Solomon: [chuckles] It would definitely make the show more fun.

Matt Katz: [laughs] For sure. To get a little less fun and something, but maybe more consequential congestion pricing, listeners will remember that New Jersey sued New York to stop this plan for a few reasons, but mainly an environmental review, and New Jersey wanted a cut of the money. Governor Murphy talked about the new Kathy Hochul delay in congestion pricing last night. Let's take a listen.

Governor Phil Murphy: I was surprised, honestly, as you know, it's still being heard. Then there was a status update, I think, recently, and there'll be another one with the federal judge on our actions requesting an environmental impact statement. I assume that process still goes forward, by the way.

Matt Katz: Nancy, the Jersey lawsuit is still in place and they're still trying to see if they could stop it, although it's already currently delayed. What is the issue here? Why is our New Jerseyans so opposed to this?

Nancy Solomon: There is quite a bit of opposition. I'd say the top reason is the added cost to what are already expensive bridge and tunnel tolls. The Hudson crossing is roughly about $15 and congestion pricing would have obviously added to that. On the side of New Jersey resentment, the East River crossings are much cheaper. Now, those folks are in New York, crossing the East River, but they're New Yorkers. Maybe you could make an argument that those crossings should be free. I think it rankles people that there's such a cost to crossing the Hudson already, and then there would be that extra charge. That was number one.

Number two, I don't know how much of this was just a legal strategy. Murphy talks very passionately about the environmental concerns that arose because drivers would try to avoid the congestion toll by driving up the Jersey side of the Hudson River and crossing, and staying north where the toll starts on 60th Street. They argued that there was an environmental concern of the air pollution. I actually would suspect it was much more of a traffic concern. If you talk to people in New Jersey, they're more likely to complain about traffic than they are to complain about air pollution.

There was that, and then there was the lack of any money going to New Jersey Transit. This one I can relate to as a downtrodden Jersey commuter, that congestion pricing was intended to force more people to get onto trains and buses. Great, but nothing on the Jersey side was going to get any improvements. It was only going to be MTA, which presumably includes the Long Island Rail Road. Jersey commuters were getting stiffed on the fact that there was no real regional plan for using the money to improve mass transit in the tri-state region.

Matt Katz: You got some calls about New Jersey Transit last night, too. There's already complaints related to New Jersey Transit, right?

Nancy Solomon: Yes. There have always been complaints, but we did get more calls last night than usual. I think that is happening because Amtrak has had some problems lately. The tracks and the wires are owned and operated by Amtrak.

Matt Katz: Got it.

Nancy Solomon: When there are infrastructure problems, then New Jersey Transit gets backed up. There were a couple of really bad nights in the last couple of weeks, where people were stuck for hours waiting to get home. This just frustrates the heck out of Governor Murphy because he has said that he'll fix New Jersey Transit if it kills him. It's a great source of frustration for him that he has little control over getting Amtrak infrastructure improved.

Matt Katz: The congestion pricing issue and getting money for New Jersey Transit doesn't help necessarily that problem, the fact that these old lines owned by Amtrak don't always function properly.

Nancy Solomon: Exactly. There is the good news that the feds have now put in the money that they promised for the Gateway tunnel, which is the new train tunnel under the Hudson. That's good. That's $6.8 billion, and Governor Murphy is, of course, very happy about that. I think now we see they're going to be actual shovels in the ground, digging that tunnel with that money coming through, but that's what? Ten years away?

You and I know full and well when Chris Christie cut the original ARC tunnel and the impact that that had when that decision was followed a couple years later by superstorm Sandy, which made a mess of the tunnels with the salt water that got into them. We've been teetering on a point of real disaster for years just relying on these 100-year-old Amtrak tunnels. There's some good news there, but cross your fingers for the next 10 years.

Matt Katz: New Jersey listeners, how have New Jersey Transit, Amtrak, your commutes changed, if at all, since the governor's tenure? What are some issues that remain? We're curious to get your call, so give us a buzz. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, you can also text that number. If there are other questions you might have for Nancy about what's going on with Governor Murphy, give us a buzz. Let's go to our phone lines. Jessie in Harlem. Hey, Jessie, thanks for calling in.

Jessie: Hi. Thank you so much for taking my call. My father's recovering from cancer, and he's a retired teacher. It's ridiculous to think that after all the things, he's been an amazing pillar as an educator, suffering trying to recover the money involved to put him back together again. On top of the toll to get over the-- $35 just to go get treatments every single day to recover. I don't know if they really took into account who these-- It's just spreadsheets of numbers and projections, and this pot of goal at the end of the rainbow, "Oh, this money--"

What has the MTA been doing with my federal tax dollars, my state tax dollars, and my city because I live in New York City. What has the MTA done with that amount of money all the way plus the fare? The MTA then says they want to hire consultants for $15 million to study why people are evading the fare. They're evading the fare because again, last night, the A train and the D train, the A is on the local track, the D is on the express track. I have video of this. People were running from the local side.

Matt Katz: I know it well

Jessie: They don't know. There's no announcement. If you're in a wheelchair, if you're pregnant, you're nursing, it's hot down there this is not about public transportation. This is not even about my sanity. This is not about me being a good little citizen that pays my taxes-

Matt Katz: Jessie.

Jessie: -and pays my fare.

Matt Katz: Thank you. Really appreciate. That is a very passionate and strong response to the congestion pricing issue. Really appreciate, Jessie. It's a little bit far afield from our discussion about New Jersey, except for one thing, Nancy. Jessie talked about the money and that they just see a pot of gold related to congestion pricing. That's really regular New Jerseyans are complaining about those that commute into the city. New York just wants our money to do whatever they want to do with it with congestion pricing, but we're not getting anything out of it. Even though she was making a slightly different argument, it is the crux of the argument that New Jerseyans are making. Am I right there, Nancy?

Nancy Solomon: Exactly. People feel that it's too much out of their pocket. A lot of people will argue that they don't have the option to take the train into the city for whatever reasons, whether it has to do with work schedules and working off hours late into the night, or whether it has to do with where they live and what it takes to get into the city from a transit desert area of the state. There are reasons. There are people who have a lot of stuff that they bring into the office or to their workplace like a van full of stuff. There are all kinds of reasons why people drive into the city.

I think it's a fantastic debate and issue just because it is so complicated and it is so you can see both sides that sure, it's a great goal to get more cars off the streets and put that money into mass transit. It's worked really well in London, but they've got to figure out a way to make it palatable for everybody. I think one of the things I talked about with the governor last night was, now that there's an opportunity for a do-over, why not get everybody at the table and come up with a regional mass transit plan that would help you sell congestion pricing to everybody in the region?

He seemed to be all for that idea. I put it back on him like, "Why didn't it happen the first time around? You're the governor. Make it happen."

Matt Katz: Sure.

Nancy Solomon: He was like, "Oh, no, it's not me. It's the Regional Plan Association." Which is a terrific organization, and don't really think they should be thrown under the bus, quite literally. [chuckles]

Matt Katz: Nancy Solomon, host of Ask Governor Murphy. We would love to take your New Jersey calls. Anything you want to talk about New Jersey politics, Governor Murphy-related issues, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Nancy, there is a topic that you know is very near and dear to my heart. It's called OPRA. It is not the talk show host. It is the Open Public Records Act. I've had a long, complicated relationship with OPRA as somebody who's covered New Jersey for many years, and it is essentially the means in which the public, and often reporters, are able to get documents made on taxpayers's dime whether it's in your local town or in the state.

The first legislation in OPRA was enacted in 2002 and essentially requires local, county, state governments to provide the public with government records. Now, this system, I know very well, and you know very well Nancy, doesn't always work as it's supposed to or as it says it should on paper. Now it has really dramatically changed. Governor Murphy signed this bill, passed with a ton of opposition from the public, or at least some opposition from the public, that really restricts access to state and local records in New Jersey. Why did he do this, Nancy? Why did this happen?

Nancy Solomon: Let me just divert for a second because you mentioned how near dear this is to both of us. When you covered the Chris Christie administration, you and I sued the governor over 18 different documents that you had asked for and had been denied over many months, if not years some of them. I think that's instructive for people to understand that it can be so difficult to get the documents and to hold government entities accountable through this process.

It's already difficult, even though it's an important law. One of the changes that the legislature made and the governor signed, is this thing called fee shifting, which is the ability, and you and I use this to great effect against the Christie administration, is the ability for anybody to sue the government for not providing documents that they're legally required to provide. If you win that lawsuit, then whatever government entity you sued, it could be local, it could be state, county, it doesn't matter, they have to pay your legal fees. For a not-so-well-funded public radio news outfit, that was critical for us to hold the Christie administration accountable.

That is something that has now gone away. You can sue, but you can't automatically get your legal fees. It's a huge part of the accountability piece of trying to get these records because I think really what goes to the heart of this that the governor isn't acknowledging is that it's not like the system worked super well and they're just tweaking it. It's like the system doesn't work well, and they just made it even harder to get those documents.

Matt Katz: Because the law itself can be interpreted in so many different ways. What is public? What is not public? Then if a government entity says, "No, that's not public." Then you have to sue. That's really your only option. There's a Government Records Council. That's a whole other story. That really has become the main option for reporters, for local gadflies for so many other people. You asked Governor Murphy about this last night, and I'd love to hear a little bit of his response. Let's play that clip.

Governor Murphy: OPRA is from 2002. The world is a lot different in 2024 than it was in 2002. From the get-go, I said "By the way, I didn't run for Governor to update OPRA. This is not a lifelong passion." Having said that, it's 22 years old. It didn't take into account the Internet, privacy issues. There's a whole world of stuff that's changed. To hopefully do it in a way that preserved transparency and government access to government records, et cetera.

Matt Katz: Nancy, why did he do this?

Nancy Solomon: [Chuckles] When he says, "Look, I didn't run for governor to update OPRA."

Matt Katz: He says he didn't run for governor to update OPRA, so then why--

Nancy Solomon: What he's saying is, "I have big policy priorities that I'm trying to get done here." This is what he doesn't say, "I have big policy priorities that I'm trying to get done, and I have to work with the legislature to get them done. If I have to give in on this--" Let's be clear, I'm putting words in his mouth here, but "If I have to give in on something, I get to hold my nose and give in on this. It's not that big of a deal because they really wanted it, and I've got the budget negotiations in my lap right now. The budget has to be signed by June 30th." Basically, everything the governor wants to do in the next year has to be in the budget.

There has to be money attached to whatever it is. He has to work with the legislature. I would argue that he's a very powerful governor, constitutionally in the way that governorships work across the country. New Jersey's is one of, if not the most powerful. He should be able to push back and still get his other budget priorities done, but so be it. That is a little bit about the timing because the budget is going on. It was really driven by the leadership in the state senate. The assembly went along with it, but from what I understand, it was driven by the state senate.

You know this full and well, the legislators in New Jersey, they have other gigs. They have jobs. They're lawyers, they're insurance brokers, they work for paving contractors. They have a dog in this fight. They don't necessarily want a local government being OPRAd and having to give up the contract that they hold, where they're earning money from a government contract and at the same time, approving state funding for that town or for the Department of Transportation, paving, that sort of thing. I don't think advocates and reporters are overstating the importance of this, and what is at stake when state senators want to keep more information private instead of making it more transparent?

Matt Katz: We have a call on this. David in Westfield. Hi, David. Thanks for calling in.

David: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. It's a real pleasure to be on the phone with you guys. While I have Nancy there, I just want to say you're a hero of mine as a journalist. I love to [crosstalk]-

Nancy Solomon: [unintelligible 00:20:28]

David: -listen to your reporting, and I really-

Matt Katz: Me too.

David: -enjoy your conversations with Governor Murphy. I was really pleased that you pressed him last night on the OPRA thing, in particular on the item regarding when an entity is found liable for not producing the records that they previously would have to pay for those legal fees, and now that they won't. My impression was, and you partly answered this already in some of your comments while I was on the line, why was he doing this? Because he's giving the same response that he gave, I thought to when people asked him why his wife was running for senator and also why he thought the ballot issue that Andy Kim raised was not a big deal. Clearly, all these things were a big deal and bothered a lot of people.

He's quite charming. I give him a lot of credit for being able to deflect through charm, but just as a reporter myself, I find it outrageous, and I'd just be interested in more of your thoughts. In addition to having to play ball with the legislatures, is there something else at play here that we're missing, because it feels really wrong.

Matt Katz: Thanks, David.

Nancy Solomon: Thank you for that, and I concur. I continue to be frustrated with, I think the most generous way I could put it is his lack of interest and commitment to political reform. I think Governor Murphy has done a lot of good things during his time as governor, but that is an area that he is just-- The question is, is he not interested, which his people say to me. They will say, "This just isn't his issue. He's not going to fight for something that he's not passionate about. He's passionate about other things like making New Jersey fiscally strong and making it more fair," and all that kind of stuff, which is all good stuff.

To me, it's never been clear. Is it that he's not committed to political reform and doesn't see it as an important thing, or is it that it serves him well to be able to keep things as a backroom deal rather than a transparent upfront deal? It certainly suited him to put his wife forward for the Senate seat until that collapsed in a ball of flames. Does it suit him? Is he going to fight for open records? He doesn't really get much out of it and he's not running for political office.

He started out talking about political reform at the very beginning of his first term, and he took on some of the party bosses, but he is totally working with them now and has really

been fully committed to the system as it stands, where county party bosses have a tremendous amount of influence, sway, and control over New Jersey politics. He was fully down with that, and he has worked the system to his benefit very well. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing. Politically, he was able to get elected because that whole system with the county line and how the ballots work and dealing with the party bosses, he made that work for him and it got him elected. He thinks the system works pretty well.

Matt Katz: Nancy, I have a call that I think you might be interested in this particular topic. It goes to something you and I have spent a lot of time talking about and reporting about. Hi, Jessica. Jessica's in Verona.

Jessica: Hi.

Matt Katz: Are you there, Jessica? Hi. Thanks for calling in.

Jessica: I am. Can you hear me? Thanks for having me.

Matt Katz: Yes.

Jessica: I guess just speaking of backdoor deals and just general weirdness, I thought it was so weird that it was being reported that Eric Adams was nominating this Randy Mastro for the corporate counsel of New York when he's the person representing New Jersey for congestion pricing. It just brings up, I don't know, just a conflict of interest, or was Adams even serious about congestion pricing in the first place? It just seems very weird.

Matt Katz: Thank you very-- Go ahead, Nancy.

Nancy Solomon: Matt Katz knows a lot more about Randy Mastro-

Matt Katz: [chuckles]

Nancy Solomon: -than I do. As Matt's editor, I certainly know a bunch. Matt, why don't you take this one on because you really know a lot about him. Is that fair?

Matt Katz: It is fair, yes. Randy Mastro is a former deputy mayor for Rudy Giuliani and he was hired by Chris Christie when I was reporting on Chris Christie to defend him in the Bridgegate case where Christie was accused of orchestrating a traffic jam to get back at a political opponent and create a traffic jam in his political opponent's town by basically closing lanes on the George Washington Bridge. That was the Bridgegate scandal. Then Christie hires this big-shot lawyer from New York City, Randy Mastro, who is described by everyone as a pit bull.

What came out of hiring Randy Mastro was this report that basically exonerated Christie and blamed several underlings. Randy also blamed a woman who worked for Chris Christie and said she had just broken up with Christie's chief of staff and was upset and maybe that was why she decided to close the lanes of the George Washington Bridge. That's a little background of Randy Mastro. I used OPRA, by the way, we're talking about the public records law, to find out how much the state of New Jersey taxpayers in New Jersey were paying Randy Mastro to do this report that exonerated the governor after the governor just hired him. It was about $12 million or $13 million [crosstalk]-

Nancy Solomon: $13 million.

Matt Katz: -in the end. Yes. There you go. That's all I heard about Randy Mastro for a little while, and then he was hired to represent the state of New Jersey by a Democrat, Governor Murphy, after having been this big lawyer for the Republican, Chris Christie. What was up with that, Nancy? I'll pass it to you now. [chuckles]

Nancy Solomon: I don't know. It raised eyebrows among the chattering classes and those of us who pay attention to these things, but I actually don't have any insight into why Governor Murphy picked Randy Mastro. I guess when you want something, he's a guy to have in your court. He is a bulldog and he does get what his clients want him to get. He's also politically connected. It's interesting to think about him taking on this case, which is New Jersey against New York when he is essentially a New York guy with New York connections. I hadn't really thought about it until this moment, so I'm really speaking off the top of my head.

Matt Katz: Sure.

Nancy Solomon: Maybe that was part of the strategy of sticking a stick in New York side, like we're going to hire Randy Mastro.

Matt Katz: [chuckles] Now there's talk that Randy Mastro could be hired by Mayor Eric Adams to be the chief lawyer in that administration, which is why his name is also back in the news. Fascinating guy. We've got to have Randy Mastro on the show one time.

Nancy Solomon: That's $650 an hour. Pretty good for Randy Mastro-

Matt Katz: Pretty good.

Nancy Solomon: -too. [chuckles]

Matt Katz: Oh, it does work out in that way, yes, for sure. Can you give us a 20 to 30-second summation on where we're at with the Bob Menendez trial? New Jersey Senator Bob Menendez trial is ongoing. What's the status of things? When are we going to have a decision and does that affect the fact that he has declared candidacy to run for Senate for reelection?

Nancy Solomon: 20 seconds, you're killing me.

Matt Katz: Maybe 30 seconds, Nancy.

Nancy Solomon: [chuckles] The trial's ongoing. The prosecution is still presenting its witnesses to the jury. At this point, we're about three, four weeks in. We've heard from a Cairo embassy official about how one of the businessmen in the case who is accused of bribing the Senator, how he got a monopoly on halal meat exports, and how that was not something the US Department of Agriculture wanted. They pressed and Menendez pressed back.

We've also heard from former New Jersey Attorney General Gurbir Grewal who testified that Menendez requested a meeting to discuss a criminal case with him that involves one of the businessmen charged who's actually at this point pled guilty, Jose Uribe. Let me just dig into this one thing. Jose Uribe, he's got this criminal case. He's trying to get help with it. He buys Nadine and Bob Menendez a Mercedes-Benz, brand new one in 2019.

Then he presses them, "I want help with my criminal case." The night before, Senator Menendez meets with the State Attorney General about this case, and Uribe goes to Nadine's house. They're not married yet so it's Nadine's house. He goes to the house, he sits on the back patio with the senator. Nadine is inside, and he's asking him for help. At one point the senator says, "Mon amour," and calls to Nadine. He's got a little bell on the table and he rings the bell.

This was my favorite part of the whole trial so far. She comes out and he says, "Mon amour, bring me paper and pen," and he gives the paper and pen to Uribe. He says, "Write down the names and the names of businesses who are involved in this investigation." Then Grewal, the former Attorney General, basically has already testified that the very next morning he goes to Menendez's Newark office and meets with him. Menendez wants help with this case. Menendez's argument is that this was constituent services, that Latino trucking companies were being targeted by the Attorney General's office. He felt it was his duty to advocate on their behalf and of course, so far we've seen some cross-examination but most of this is the prosecution's case.

Matt Katz: Wow.

Nancy Solomon: It looks bad for Menendez, but it could start to look better once his defense gets a crack at all this.

Matt Katz: Man, New Jersey never fails through outdo itself when it comes to shocking political shenanigans. Our conversation just now proves that. We got Bridgegate and the Arc tunnel cancellation and party bosses and alleged bribery of a US Senator with a Mercedes-Benz all in there. Thank you, Nancy. Really appreciate it.

Nancy Solomon: Matt, let me just say one more thing. Menendez now is trying to stick it to the Democrats by running as an independent for his seat in the Senate. That's just a big-- I can't think of a clean word to say to New Jersey.

Matt Katz: We know what you mean.

Nancy Solomon: New Jersey Democratic Party. Yes. Thank you.

Matt Katz: Incredible. Nancy Solomon, WNYC, and Gotham is reporter, editor, and host of the Ask Governor Murphy monthly call and show. Thank you, Nancy. Talk to you soon.

Nancy Solomon: Great to talk to you, Matt.

 

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