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Matt Katz: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Matt Katz, reporter in the WNYC Newsroom, and I'm sitting in for Brian today. Last week was a big one for federal prosecutors in New York. In addition to search warrants served on several members of the Adams administration, including the police commissioner and the school's chancellor, which prompted Mayor Adams to compare himself to the biblical figure Job. We have another extraordinary corruption scandal with international intrigue up in Albany, with Linda Sun, a former deputy chief of staff to Governor Hochul, who was also an aide to Governor Cuomo, arrested and charged with acting as an agent of the Chinese government. To find out more about her role in both administrations, how she's alleged to have used her government access to benefit China, and for the latest on the investigations into people in the Adams administration, I'm joined by my colleague, Jon Campbell, who covers the New York State Capitol for WNYC and Gothamist. Hi, Jon. How about last week? My goodness.

Jon Campbell: It was certainly a doozy, as Molly Ball just said. It was a doozy up here, too.

Matt Katz: Let me just start with what we've learned about the City Hall investigation. Since that's like been the most recent. There's now several, it turns out, federal investigations, inquiries, reviews into City Hall. They appear to not all be about the same thing. One around the police commissioner, another around other members of Adams's inner circle. School's chancellor is involved, the two deputy mayors. What can you tell us about what we know? Obviously, a lot of this is just like reporting on these secretive federal investigations. We don't know a lot necessarily, specifically, but what do you know?

Jon Campbell: Yes, absolutely. I mean, and it is very difficult to keep track of because there are so many different tentacles here, really. You went through some of it there. There was a search warrant issued to or served on Edward Caban, the commissioner of the NYPD. That is obviously a big deal to have the police commissioner, the person who is charged with enforcing the law, being part of some sort of investigation that he himself may be involved in.

We also know, thanks to our colleague Charles Lane's reporting, that a family member to Edward Caban was also served with a search warrant. That's believed to be James Caban, who is Edward's twin brother, a former police officer himself. I spoke to some nightlife sources, some sources within the nightlife industry who say that James Caban is well known within the industry as being a consultant or a fixer, if you will, for nightclubs, for music venues, for concert promoters. It seems that maybe that has something to do with this part of the investigation. The IRS is involved in that part of the investigation.

According to law enforcement source, the FBI is involved with perhaps another investigation. That's with deputy mayor, I'm sorry, with Phil Banks and deputy mayor Sheena Wright, who lives with school's chancellor David Banks. They had search warrants served on them as well. There's different tentacles here, and all of that is not connected, it appears, to this ongoing campaign-- I'm sorry, ongoing investigation into Adams campaign. Mayor Adams campaign, his fundraiser, Brianna Suggs, had her home raided last year. All of these things seem to be happening at the same time, and they seem to be at least three separate investigations.

Matt Katz: Sometimes when the feds look into one thing, they subpoena information, they come across something else. You get a phone and you see other questionable text messages, and maybe that's how some of this came about. We don't know at this point. Then I guess I can now transition to the other investigation, which apparently had been going on for quite a while. This one we know a lot more about because there was an arrest. To Albany we go, and there was an arrest last week of former aide to Governors Hochul and Cuomo. Tell us a little bit about Linda Sun, and how she came to be deputy chief of staff to Governor Hochul. A little bit about her history.

Jon Campbell: We should mention, with all the Adams investigations, there have been no charges filed, no indictments unsealed, anything like that. That's different for this case. This is Linda Sun, who was a key aide as a liaison to the Asian American community with first, Governor Cuomo, then Governor Hochul. Governor Hochul promoted her to deputy chief of staff until she fired her in 2023.

She served as the administration's key. Their connection to the Asian American community in Queens, in particular places like Flushing, Kew Gardens. She is accused of acting as an agent of the Chinese government in exchange for helping her husband get a foothold in China with his seafood exporting business. She's accused of doing things like blocking Taiwanese officials from accessing Governor Cuomo and Governor Hochul. She's accused of getting a fake employment letter with apparently forged signature or perhaps an autopen that wasn't approved to get a Chinese delegation into the US on a visa.

She's accused of removing a reference to the Uyghur people, which China's treatment of the Uyghur people is the subject of human rights complaints. She's accused of getting that removed from remarks for a Lunar New Year video that a speechwriter was trying to get included in that video. Federal prosecutors in Brooklyn say in exchange, her husband's business did big business in China, got millions of dollars. The couple bought a 2024 Ferrari for a quarter million dollars, $3.6 million home in Manhasset on Long Island, a $2 million condo in Honolulu. The feds say that was all ill-gotten gains for doing the bidding of the Chinese government.

Matt Katz: Incredible. Listeners, do you have any questions about the arrest of Linda Sun or whats known about the investigations around City Hall? Give us a call or text us, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Jon, you're at the State House in Albany all the time. Did you ever come across her? Was she present, kind of a present figure in the administration? Or was this your first awareness of her role with the governor?

Jon Campbell: My first awareness of her role with the governor came as her home was raided in July. We know that the governors have different liaisons to different communities, so that's not unusual by any stretch of the imagination. There's a Jewish liaison, there's an Asian American liaison. Andrew Cuomo had an Italian liaison, if you can believe it.

There's several of them within New York State government. They don't generally rise to the level of the inner, inner circle of the governor's sanctum, if you will. That said, Linda Sun served in a lot of different roles. She bounced from the governor's office to agencies. At one point, she had a job with the state's economic development branch, where she had a role with the Global New York Program, which has to do with promoting exports from New York to other countries. She had a role at some point that kind of put her in the middle of some international relations there. It was deputy chief of staff for Hochul, which was the highest role that she rose to.

That said, she did get moved to the Department of Labor. Then there was some sort of internal investigation where the state inspector general seems to have gotten wind of Linda Sun's efforts to issue a proclamation to the Chinese Consul General. She didn't have permission to do that. Governor Hochul says that she fired Linda Sun for misconduct in 2023.

Matt Katz: Jon, tell us about the salted ducks.

Jon Campbell: The Nanjing-style salted ducks, to be precise here. Yes, so on top of this money that Linda's Sun and her husband, Chris Hu, who was also charged in this indictment, we should also say they both have pleaded not guilty at this point. As part of this, they also are alleged to have gotten various perks from Chinese government officials, from Chinese Communist Party officials, things like tickets to performances at Carnegie Hall or sporting events, things like that. Then there's also a detail in the indictment from federal prosecutors in Brooklyn that say that four separate times, a personal chef for a Chinese official who is the Chinese Consul General Huang Ping, his personal chef, sent Nanjing-style salted ducks to Linda Sun's parents home. That's a delicacy in a part of China. I've never had it personally. I don't know if you have, Matt.

Matt Katz: I don't think so.

Jon Campbell: Supposed to be tender, juicy meat with a salty, crisp crust. Skin, I should say, not crust. They were sent to Linda Sun's parents homes at four different points. They say that was one of the perks that Linda Sun and her family received from the Chinese government.

Matt Katz: That sounds delicious. One other thing that Linda Sun was apparently involved in was getting Hochul to record a New Year's message for the Chinese Consul General when she was lieutenant governor. Let's hear a clip of that message.

Kathy Hochul: I'm Lieutenant Governor Kathy Hochul, and on behalf of Governor Cuomo, myself, the entire state of New York, I want to wish you, xīn nián kuài lè, Happy Lunar New Year.

Matt Katz: Now, on the surface, Jon, that's a normal thing for a lieutenant governor to do, and that seems like something a liaison to a particular community would facilitate, right?

Jon Campbell: Yes, absolutely. But behind the scenes is something that caught federal prosecutors attention, and that is so Governor Hochul cut that video for the Chinese Consul General in New York, a guy named Huang Ping.

Behind the scenes, Huang requested a video from Governor Cuomo, who was in office at the time. Linda Sun, an email says, "Well, I don't know about him, but I can definitely get you Lieutenant Governor Kathy Hochul." They record the video. She sends it to the Chinese Consul General, and she says, oh, you wouldn't believe it, but a speech writer wanted to include a reference to the Uyghur people, which we referenced earlier. It's the subject of human rights complaints in China. Linda Sun made clear to the consul general that she blocked that from happening. She didn't allow that to happen. It did not make it into the video. That is one of these "overt acts" that are included in the indictment that's supposed to prove that Linda Sun took action on behalf of the Chinese government. That is part of one of the felony charges that she's facing.

Matt Katz: That seems a little strange to me, like maybe not telling the complete story there. Odd if the lieutenant governor would have mentioned the alleged genocide against the Uyghur people in a New Year's message.

Jon Campbell: Yes, I agree with that, but that said, it's part of a pattern, right? Like, there are many times over the course of what amounted to be about seven years that Linda Sun allegedly shown in emails reporting back to the Chinese consul general or Chinese officials, and this is one of a handful of instances that they cite. It's used in the indictment to establish a pattern.

We should also say, too, there was this weird situation that happened after this indictment came out with the Chinese Consul General in New York, who we just mentioned, Huang Ping, who is repeatedly referenced through this indictment as Linda Sun's kind of contact person with the Chinese government. Governor Hochul, in the days that followed Linda Sun's arrest, she told reporters, she heavily insinuated to reporters that she called the State Department, urged them to oust Huang Ping from his role as consul general, and that he was no longer in his role. The State Department told her as much well, then reporters asked the State Department, and they said, well, we heard what the governor said, but actually, his term came to an end the month before, so he's not in that position anymore, but he wasn't forced out. We didn't force him out.

Then we asked the Chinese consulate whether Huang Ping is still in his role, and they said, yep, he sure is. We don't want the media spreading rumors. He's still in his role. And they've released press releases in the last couple days of various things that Huang Ping is apparently still doing as consul general. It's just been a mess.

Matt Katz: Wow. One person who's not in her role anymore is Linda's son, who was actually fired by Hochul last year over misconduct. What was the misconduct? Was that related to all of this?

Jon Campbell: Yes, it was definitely related to all this. The governor hasn't said exactly what that was. She was asked about that actually on All Things Considered on WNYC, and she said, well, that's going come out at trial. We can't say. Say what exactly? In the indictment, it makes clear that the New York State Inspector General interviewed Linda Sun in 2023 about a proclamation that she issued to Huang Ping, the Chinese consul general, and it was delivered directly to him. It was in a frame. It was purported to be signed by Governor Hochul, but it appears that Linda Sun did that without proper authorization. She was questioned about that shortly before she was fired. We can do some adding up of two and two there, I think.

Matt Katz: How about her two other employers, Andrew Cuomo, who had hired her, and then Congresswoman Grace Meng, who I guess she worked for before Meng became a congresswoman. Have they commented about this? Have they distanced themselves from Linda Sun?

Jon Campbell: Yes. Linda Sun came up through Queen's political circles, and she helped Grace Meng in her campaign to be elected to the New York State assembly. She eventually became Grace Meng's chief of staff, and then left for the governor's office before Grace Meng ever became a congressperson. Meng's office issued a statement to the Wall Street Journal saying that she was unaware of any of this alleged conduct and learned about it as everybody else did.

As far as Governor Cuomo, his administration did hire Linda Sun way back in 2012. She served various roles in his administration. Something you've seen that Governor Cuomo and Governor Hochul do is kind of try to point fingers to each other as to who deserves blame. In Governor Cuomo's statement, his spokesperson said, like, yes, he hired her. She was never really in his inner circle, had very limited interaction with Governor Cuomo, and that she was promoted to deputy chief of staff by the subsequent administration, which would, of course, be Governor Hochul. Governor Hochul over and over has said, well, you know, Linda Sun was hired by the previous administration. There's finger pointing. It wouldn't be New York politics without some finger pointing going on.

Matt Katz: Sure. What happens next in this case?

Jon Campbell: Well, it's going to work its way through the courts. Sometimes these cases make it the whole way to trial, and then you learn all sorts of new things at the actual trial itself. Other times they result in plea deals before then. Right now, there's some legal wrangling going on as to who Linda Sun can have contact with, and what happens if she runs into a People's Republic of China official in the street? Does she have to ignore them? This and that? That stuff's going on right now. She's free right now on a $1.5 million bond. Her husband Chris, who is free on $500,000 bond. It's going to work its way through the court.

Matt Katz: We had somebody texted in. I don't know if you can answer this, but the forced short orders for the bond. They were able to guarantee her bond. Do you know anything about them? How she was able to stay out of jail while this works its way through the system?

Jon Campbell: I don't know exactly the connection with the people who assured the bond. I will say I did look at that document, and I have started doing some reporting there, but I don't have anything to say on the air at this point.

Matt Katz: I'm curious, the governor has this she's dealing with, but she also has a mayor who she's been relatively close with, who's now under this fair to say, cloud, with all of these multiple inquiries by federal investigators into the Adams administration. Will the governor keep her distance from the mayor? Are we going to start to see a little bit more daylight between the two most important politicians in New York?

Jon Campbell: Yes, and that's something that I'm really going to be watching for. To this point, through three years of Mayor Adams term and a few years of Governor Hochul's term as well, they have been remarkably pleasant with each other in public, which as human beings, it seems weird to say that, because we should be pleasant with other people, but New York City mayors and New York state governors are often at each other's throat.

Matt Katz: Particularly the last two.

Jon Campbell: Yes, exactly. Particularly Cuomo and Bill de Blasio. It's been that way for decades, but Eric Adams and Kathy Hochul have gone to lengths to present themselves as allies and people who are getting along in public. So far, that has not changed, to my knowledge. There was some question about whether I saw the New York Post report that maybe Kathy Hochul kept her distance from Eric Adams at the Labor Day parade. I don't know. I don't know that that really matters.

The next time that Kathy Hochul is asked about Eric Adams, will she still be as supportive? My bet would be yes, because to this point, she has stayed supportive of him, and plus, by the way, you know, she needs him to be supportive now at a time where, you know, she has a former aide who is essentially accused of being a Chinese spy. So far, it's been mutually beneficial for them to remain on each other's good side. I would expect you would continue to see that. We're going to be scrutinizing every word they say about each other.

Matt Katz: The mayor, of course, up for reelection next year, and there's a former governor who's been sniffing around, apparently. What do we know, especially given Mayor Adams administration, under all these inquiries, what do we know about the chances of Andrew Cuomo trying to challenge Mayor Adams next year for mayor? Is that on the table or just some sort of, like, political fantasy?

Jon Campbell: I think it's a little from column A, a little from column B, as many things are in New York politics. I think there's no doubt that Andrew Cuomo would like at some point to make a return to public life. He feels like he was wronged when he resigned from office, under pressure amid sexual harassment allegations, amid questions about his handling of COVID, and COVID in nursing homes in particular. He feels like he was wronged. I think there's little doubt that he wants to get back in New York state politics. He has millions of dollars in his campaign account, I should say New York politics, either state or city.

That said, the signals that we've gotten from his former staff or his sources within his office over the years is that he is not looking to challenge Mayor Adams, that he is sniffing around, that perhaps maybe he'd throw his hat in the race if Mayor Adams were to step down or not run for reelection. That makes sense in part because Mayor Adams base and Andrew Cuomo's base, actually, they intersect quite a bit. They overlap quite a bit.

Andrew Cuomo is very, very popular within Black and brown communities within New York City. Eric Adams is as well. That is their base. They'd be competing for a lot of the same people, so to speak, and influential people within those communities. They'd be seeking their endorsements. Generally speaking, the idea is, if Eric Adams does not run again, that's when we have to start paying attention to the Andrew Cuomo rumors.

Matt Katz: Andrew Cuomo is going to be in the news tomorrow. He's testifying before House committee about this decision he made at the height of the pandemic that required nursing homes to take back patients dismissed from hospitals regardless of their COVID status. He's framing this as a Republican stunt. Is he going to get support from Democrats on the House committee that he's testifying before tomorrow?

Jon Campbell: Yes. To me, that's the number one question that I'm going to be looking out for. Matt, you and I have watched a lot of these types of hearings at the federal level, at the state level, at the city level. Often it is, you know, the Republicans come for the throat of whoever is on the panel, or the Democrats come to their defense or vice versa, depending on who's testifying. But Andrew Cuomo does not have a lot of allies in the Democratic Party, in large part because of the circumstances of his exit as New York state governor.

We know that Republicans are going to come after him hard. Andrew Cuomo is very skilled in these situations. He's an attorney. He relishes the debate on some level. That said, will Democrats come to his defense? I don't know, but what we should say, though, is Politico reported a couple weeks ago that Democrats have been warned to watch out for situations where Republicans might try to tie Andrew Cuomo's handling of the pandemic to Tim Walz's handling of the pandemic in Minnesota, because they're both governors, yes, both governors, both democratic governors, And Tim Walz is now, of course, Kamala Harris running mate. That is something that Democrats have been warned to keep an eye out for. In those cases, maybe then you do see them come to Andrew Cuomo's defense.

Matt Katz: Can you just explain a little bit more about the issue that they're probing for those of us who haven't talked about or thought about the nursing home issue in a few years?

Jon Campbell: Yes, of course. I mean, we got, you know, time travel with me back to March 2020. It was a scary time for all of us. It was really the onset of the COVID pandemic in New York state, or at least our realizing that it was here in New York state. There were real concerns that hospitals beds were going to be at capacity. You remember talk about acquiring ventilators and setting up temporary hospitals. This was all in the thick of that.

On March 25, 2020, the state Department of Health issued a directive to nursing homes saying, "Hey, you can't reject somebody for admittance into your home on the sole basis of a COVID positive diagnosis." Basically said, just because somebody has COVID, it doesn't mean that you can keep them out of your facility. The idea behind it was to free up space in hospitals, but that's led to a lot of criticism that perhaps that order may have inadvertently led to introducing COVID in nursing homes. That is the source of this hearing that is going to be available for public view tomorrow.

Matt Katz: One other contemporary policy question for you before you go, Governor Hochul paused. Congestion pricing. She said she's going to be exploring other funding options. Where are we at with that?

Jon Campbell: Well, there's not really much new to report on that front, and in large part that's because the state legislature isn't due back in Albany until January. It seems little talks behind the scenes about maybe what to do to fill that funding gap for the MTA. The governor has kind of insinuated that maybe she'll support a lower than $15 toll for the congestion pricing toll, and then you'd have to fill the rest of that gap with something else. But it's that something else that nobody seems to be willing to say, hey, this is what I think we should do to plug that gap. The governor has said that toward the end of the year, she'll put out her plan. It'll predate the legislature coming back in January. Then all of that, I would expect, will get hashed out in the state budget, which is due at the end of March.

Matt Katz: Jon Campbell is our man in Albany, covering politics and policy, and turns out, prosecution, for WNYC and Gothamist. Thanks so much, Jon. Talk to you soon.

Jon Campbell: Thanks, Matt.

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