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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. We'll have NYU professor Melissa Murray on the show later this hour on the first week of the new Supreme Court term, as they are already making waves. For example, did you hear that the court declined to get involved in the issue of emergency abortions in Texas? The Biden Administration wanted the court to review the Texas restrictions in light of federal rules guaranteeing access to abortions in an emergency. The headline in The New Republic on this story, "Supreme Court decides to let Texas women die."

Today they'll hear the so called ghost guns case that asks, when is a gun not a gun? If you buy a kit to assemble a cabinet from Ikea, is it not a cabinet? Tomorrow, the court will hear a death row appeal by an Oklahoma man named Richard Glossip. Get this, the State itself, the republican attorney general, now wants to postpone the execution based on new evidence that Glossip didn't get a fair trial. They want him to have a new trial. Oklahoma's highest court says he has to be executed anyway. What? The US Supreme Court will hear that case tomorrow. We'll get into it with Melissa Murray coming up.

The interesting brief filed last week by special counsel Jack Smith and the Donald Trump 2020 election interference case. Now that the Supreme Court has given Trump immunity for any official act as President, Smith is arguing point by point that much of what Trump did to block the certification of the election was done as a candidate. That is a private citizen, not in his role as President. We'll invite Melissa Murray to explain how. You can see where you think the line is when a President does something that could be illegal, how do they determine if that President is doing it in his official capacity as President or as a private citizen?

We will also today have our climate story of the week, which we're doing every Tuesday all this year. Today with Hurricane Milton approaching many of the same areas devastated by Helene. Milton said to be even stronger. We'll look at the evidence that these monster storms are a function of the climate, not just the weather, and why places that are hundreds of miles inland may no longer feel safe from what we usually think of as coastal weather systems. Maybe you saw the recent article called There's No Such Thing as a Climate Haven. At the end of the show today, your call is on letting your hair go gray and other decisions about when to stop masking the aging process. That's all coming up.

We begin today with the Reverend Al Sharpton, mostly in his role as defender of Eric Adams, perhaps an unlikely role for the lifelong criminal justice reform advocate with respect to the law and order Mayor. He'll explain. We'll also get into some national election politics with Reverend Sharpton and some thoughts on life and justice as he just turned 70 years old last week and talked about it on TV. Reverend Sharpton, we always appreciate it when you come on with us. Welcome back to WNYC.

Reverend Al Sharpton: Thank you. Glad to be with you.

Brian Lehrer: Let's jump right into your thoughts about Mayor Adams. Many people are saying he should resign or that Governor Hochul should remove him because he can't govern the city and fight these federal corruption charges at the same time. You have warned about a double standard that might be getting applied to the Mayor, especially with respect to the cause for the Governor to remove him. Would you elaborate on that concern?

Reverend Al Sharpton: Yes. My position is not a defender of the Mayor, but a defender of the process. That is, I do not see how we have seen this investigation and indictment lead to a level where we will do something we never did before, and that is remove a Mayor or an elected official from office, based on an indictment. We just saw an indictment by southern district of Senator Menendez. He was never removed from the US Senate. We're talking about within months ago. Now, when I'm going into history, he was not removed from the Senate until he was convicted.

I think that aside from whatever people's feelings may be about Eric Adams, I happen to think he did and has done good as Mayor. Why would you break a precedent, and establish a precedent now, that if any official is indicted, that the Governor should therefore remove them? I think that's a very dangerous precedent.

Brian Lehrer: About a double standard. We had Elie Mystal on the show last week, who, I'm sure you know, Justice Correspondent for The Nation. Who had tweeted, "The fact that Adams is the first sitting New York City Mayor to face federal criminal charges actually says more about how law enforcement lets Mayors of New York City get away with crime than anything else. Guess they decided to apply the rules to Adams. Can't imagine why." Reverend, he's suggesting that corrupt Mayors of New York, who are white, didn't get indicted. Sarcastically, Elie can't imagine why they decided to apply the rules to Adams. Do you think even the indictment represents perhaps a racial double standard?

Reverend Al Sharpton: Again, we're talking apples and oranges. I'm talking about double standard with the State Governor. Let's remember the indictment came at a depart from a district that is headed by Black now. Damian Williams, who works with some of us in the community around gun control and all. I think that it is interesting that in the history of the city, as Elie is saying, we've not seen other Mayors prosecuted. I don't know if this means that this prosecutor is saying, "I'm going after anybody, no matter who they are," or whether it's slanted one way.

The fact of the matter is, what is troubling for me, hitting a national civil rights group, is that we are in the middle of having a national election that could elect a Black woman for the first time for President and that we could have a Congressman from New York, as the speaker of the House, who would also be the first Black. We are not dealing with those issues. We have even some in the Adams camp saying, well, the administration is targeting him. Well, the administration is the one that has given us an opportunity that people like me have fought for all our lives in terms of having a Black Vice President become President and House speaker.

You have to see everything, Brian, in the context of the bigger picture. I think Eric Adams, who I've known 35 years, has done things that he's not gotten credit for in the city. I do not think he's targeted by the administration.

Brian Lehrer: Right. If you're taking issue with the Mayor on his claim that he's being targeted by the administration because he's been a critic of how little they've helped the city with the influx of asylum seekers. As you kind of were just implying, that's even enabled Donald Trump to say, "See, even the democratic Mayor of New York City says the Biden Justice Department is politicized." You've called that garbage. Why isn't being Trumpy that way falsely, and during this high stakes election, enough?

Reverend Al Sharpton: Why is he being Trumpian? I have no idea. I think that we've got to be very careful that Donald Trump does not try to use something to exploit and use to attract his voters. There is no way, I believe, that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris has targeted anyone.

Brian Lehrer: Right.

Reverend Al Sharpton: Does that mean I believe that Eric Adams is guilty of something? No. Two things can be true at the same time. I'm saying I don't believe they're targeted. I do not believe that Williams would do that. At the same time, I think, Eric deserves his day in court and has been a Mayor that has delivered in areas, like crime going down in other areas. I'm not going to have either side dictate my feelings. That's why I've been very public about it.

Brian Lehrer: I'm just asking, if Adams loses any credibility with you for using that Trumpy defense in public, that seems to give Donald Trump an extra leg to stand on.

Reverend Al Sharpton: I think I answered you with my view of what Trump did and what Trump is trying to use it for. You're trying to ask me to attack Eric Adams, and I choose not to do that.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. What you said a few times about Adams being a good Mayor-- Some of our listeners who know and respect your work in criminal justice advocacy might be surprised by your allyship with Mayor Adams in the first place. Not just on issues around the indictment. He's often characterized as a law-and-order Mayor, a pro cop Mayor. Many reform advocates would say, "Flooding the subways with police officers, making the NYPD more aggressive in various ways." Some listeners may have thought you'd be more aligned with people like AOC or Tiffany Caban or maybe Maya Wiley, who've been largely critical of Mayor Adams from a racial justice perspective. Can you explain further--

Reverend Al Sharpton: I have disagreed with Eric publicly and privately on some of the policing issues. We're very close to stop-and-frisk being now back in play. Something I fought and along with many others. I have been very public about that. You must remember when Neely was choked to death on the subway and the policeman was dealt with and supported at first utterances from City Hall and Eric. I preached his funeral, and we led the marches and helped pay for the funeral. I'm not saying that I felt he's been a good man in some areas does not mean we agree on everything and I will not stand up and say that.

I have stood up and the press did the thing. "Oh, Sharpton is going to do the funeral." "Sharpton is involved with Neely, when Adams is on the other side." You can disagree without being disagreeable.

Brian Lehrer: Right. And that was a private citizen, in that case, who attacked Neely? You--

Reverend Al Sharpton: That's right. It was not a policeman. You're right. It was a private citizen, which even makes it more, to me, disturbing that you would defend a vigilante move. I did, what, 40 years ago for Bernhard Goetz. I'm not going to change my position on that now.

Brian Lehrer: Right. You have taken issue publicly. Let me ask you this. I saw your daily news op-ed from July when you argued that the critics of Eric Adams sound like the critics of New York's first Black Mayor, David Dinkins. Dinkins was criticized mostly for being too weak on crime, fairly or not. Adams is criticized for being the opposite, as we were discussing. Dinkins was clean as a whistle. Nobody disputed that. The critics of Adams emphasize his allegedly shady dealings. Explain to our listeners where you see the parallels between how the two [crosstalk]

Reverend Al Sharpton: Well, when I saw the parallels, Dinkins was accused of going to too many affairs wearing tuxedos. He was accused of playing tennis too much. He was accused of trying to pull back police in Crown Heights. He was accused of, "We're going to move Staten Island." All of these would raise your toes. Eric is being accused of going to clubs too much. It's almost like the tuxedo thing. I wrote that article before the indictment. Dinkins was never indicted. Dinkins did have to face a grand jury investigation on his stock when he ran for Mayor.

You're talking about somebody that lived this, that didn't just read it. What I was writing about is that it seems like different colors bring about different reactions and a lot of it based on style. Why is Eric going to clubs? Does Eric change clothes? It reminded me of Dave Dinkins and tuxedos and why is he playing tennis? That's what I wrote about.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Why does Eric Adams change his clothes within a day? Is pretty hilarious. Well, let's turn next explicitly to the Presidential race. Let me play for our listeners a clip from your speech at the democratic convention. Here we go.

Reverend Al Sharpton: I'm a preacher. In psalms, it says, "Weeping may endure for night, but Joy comes in the morning." We've endured January 6th. We've endured conspiracy theories. We've endured lies and areas of darkness. If we stay together, Black, white, Latina, Asian, Indian, American, if we stay together. Joy, joy, joy, joy. Coming in tomorrow.

Brian Lehrer: Reverend Al Sharpton at the democratic convention there. He's with us live now. You ended that on one of the themes and memes of the convention, which was everyone saying the word joy. How do you understand the strategy of running on a vibe of joy when so many of the undecided voters are undecided, specifically because today's times are hard for them?

Reverend Al Sharpton: Because I think that what you are contrasting is a candidate that is saying that if we can put the right people in office that will enact the right thing. People that have been involved in recovering the economy since COVID. We have now record unemployment among various groups, including Blacks. Low unemployment. The last figures, 254,000 new jobs last month. When we start piecing together what's going on with the economy, inflation is down, where people predicted it would be up. When we deal with the fact that we can settle labor disputes like what happened over the weekend, this can lead to a joyous vision where we can go to bring people to hope and joy in the country.

It's no different than Jesse, who was one of my mentors, whose birthday is today, by the way, used to talk about keep hope alive. People would say, "How can you talk about hope?" The only way you're going to change is you've got to give people hope and the measure that there is joy possible. Rather than a Donald Trump who comes with this, "Everything is bleak, everything is wrong. Only thing's going to turn this is me." That's how you set up a predicate for a dictator, that you are not worthy of coming together and doing anything. I have to do it for you. I think that that is what the contrast is in both of these candidates in this Presidential election.

Brian Lehrer: One of Trump's messages to Black Americans in all his campaigns has been, "What have you got to lose?" I know you've heard him ask that question in those words. The idea is the Democrats haven't nearly solved racial inequality with their identity politics and their welfare state. What have you got to lose to try prosperity my way? He's hoping to pick up a few crucial points, as you know, especially with young Black men on that argument. How would you respond to that?

Reverend Al Sharpton: Well, he had four years to show us what he could do. What did he show us? Black unemployment went up. He had four years to show us. We're not talking about a guy that wasn't President. We're talking about a guy-- Put his four years of being in office and the conditions of Black Americans, including Black men, and compare it to the four years of Biden Harris. We got record unemployment. He gave a few hundred million dollars to HBCUs. They've done 16 billion with a b. Look at what our status is in terms of closing the wealth gap, Black to white. It's historic.

Again, that is a lot of hogwash when you look at the data. Let's not forget, Brian, he was President. Donald Trump was President. When George Floyd happened, Breonna Taylor happened, all killed by police. When Ahmed Arbery killed by civilians, all of this happened, he didn't open his mouth. He didn't say anything. When there was this universal movement around George Floyd, and I was at the center of it, I preached to George Floyd's funerals. His only utterances is, he got a Bible, had the Secret Service clear people from in front of a church across from the White House and went there and attacked the protesters and admonished them for protesting.

What I've said to Black men is, look at the record and let's go back to who Donald Trump was. National Action Network organizations during a national nonpartisan tour. Now, where we're telling people, look, just look at the facts. Vote for who you want. I brought a couple of the Central Park Five with us, who we fought for in '91, when everybody castigated us for standing up for them boys. Donald Trump took out ads. Spent $85,000 buying ads to call for their execution and to call for them to face the death penalty when there wasn't even a death penalty in New York. Young Black men need to ask the Central Park Five what Donald Trump really thinks about young Black men.

Brian Lehrer: Here's one more clip relevant to the Presidential race and you. Kamala Harris recorded a happy 70th birthday message to you, which played the other day on MSNBC. Here it is for our listeners.

Kamala Harris: Happy 70th birthday, Rev. Happy birthday. I celebrate the day you were born. You have been over all of your years such an extraordinary leader. You are a voice of truth, a voice of conscience, a voice of practicality around what we must address and what we can do. I thank you so much for your friendship. Happy, happy birthday, Rev.

Brian Lehrer: Kamala Harris, to you. That must have felt good. I wonder if you'd give us a thought on aging and politically maturing. Some of our older listeners, I know from the comments we get when we book you, still hold some things against you from earlier in your life. I saw one of your comments from decades ago that maybe you regret, I don't know, resurface in a leading conservative outlet last week, on the occasion of your 70th birthday. Can you talk a little bit about how you see your own evolution here at age 70?

Reverend Al Sharpton: I think that I see my own evolution as being one that is as natural as anyone else. I grew up in the public. I have said things that I've lived to regret. You say things when you're younger that really may not express how you feel, but you're playing to the crowd. Mrs. Coretta Scott King used to tell me, "You've got to calm down." I would say that a lot of people also intentionally distort things. There will always be people, like I said, Jesse Jackson was a mentor. They will never forget the things he said, but you can't deny what he did.

What I say is, if people judge us in the full span of our lives and what we fought for and stood for. If all you can do is do some quotes from 40 years ago, then, yes, I made some statements I shouldn't have made, but I stand on the record of now having been involved. I became youth director to Jesse when I was 12-years-old. I did 56 years of work. It won't be reduced to two or three distorted quotes from some right wing magazines who took them out of context.

Brian Lehrer: Back to Eric Adams for one last question, then I know you've got to go. Listener texts, "No precedent for an elected official being pressured to resign. Have you forgotten Andrew Cuomo? There wasn't even an indictment in his case, but a lot of pressure, mostly from democratic elected officials." How would you respond to that?

Reverend Al Sharpton: I would respond to the writer answered their own question. He was pressured to resign. He was not removed by the Governor. When the lieutenant Governor became Governor, it was because of a natural transition. I did not say that people have the right to call on Eric to resign or do what they want to do. I said, as you quoted at the beginning, that I was against the precedent of the Governor removing him. I did not say the precedent of people calling on elected officials to resign.

Brian Lehrer: One quick follow up. Is there any point at which you would call--? That's what Elie Mystal did on the show last week. He exactly echoed you on no precedent for Hochul, but he said he personally thought Adam should resign. Now so many top officials of Adam's administration have resigned in the last few days. Does he reach a point for you at any point [crosstalk]

Reverend Al Sharpton: Could it reach a point? Yes. Are we at that point? No. I'm talking to others that will we continue to have that conversation. Again, I don't want to get in front of myself. The legal precedent of a Governor removing a public official should not be a precedent that's set in this case. Where my personal opinion is in that, because we're having leadership meetings of a collective, will go later. That will happen later. The first part all of us are saying that are talking is we do not want a removal. There's a difference between a removal and public pressure. Andrew Cuomo was not removed from office.

Brian Lehrer: Reverend Al Sharpton, thank you very, very much. We know you're doing a lot today. We really appreciate your time.

Reverend Al Sharpton: I appreciate you, Brian.

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