[MUSIC - Marden Hill: Hijack]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We talked yesterday on the show about how there's still a partial government shutdown, specifically for the Department of Homeland Security, because of disputes over ICE funding. There's a whole lot to discuss on that front politically, and we'll certainly continue covering that. For now, we're going to spend the last few minutes of the show talking mainly about how the DHS shutdown is affecting the airports and, in turn, your travel plans. We'll invite some questions from you. Here's some tips for how to prepare for any upcoming flights, especially as spring break season is now kicking into high gear. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692.

You know that security lines at airports across the country are really long, often three hours or more. Now, this certainly includes the New York airports. A lot of flights are being canceled. This is even before the collision at LaGuardia Airport, which is really a different segment than we're doing now. We're going to talk about how to manage these long TSA lines while they are still the norm at the moment.

We are joined by Andrea Sachs, a travel reporter for The Washington Post. We've also got Clint Henderson on the line for a few minutes. Is he there yet? He's managing editor of The Points Guy, and he's actually at an airport right now. Clint, yes, you're there. I see. Andrea, welcome to WNYC.

Andrea Sachs: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Clint Henderson: Thank you for having us.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, do you have a flight coming up and have questions for our guests about how to prepare, assuming that the TSA situation isn't resolved by then? Clint, I see you're at the Atlanta airport right now. Set the scene for us.

Clint Henderson: I landed here in Atlanta on Sunday to complete mayhem. I've never seen chaos like I saw on Sunday. Then I went back yesterday, it was only an hour and a half lines. Today, it took me five minutes. That's the problem with the shutdown and the impact. You just never know what's going to happen. I got to the airport six hours early today. Took me five minutes to get through security. I'm actually sitting in 33B on an earlier Delta flight back to New York.

Brian Lehrer: I would start with you. I expected to hear a lot of chaotic airport terminal sounds in the background. You're on the plane, I understand. That's why it's quiet. For people who have flights coming up, how early do you, based on your experience, Clint, but also on the professional research that you do for The Points Guy site, how early do you recommend arriving?

Clint Henderson: If you're flying from a majorly impacted airport like Atlanta, Houston, Newark, LaGuardia, I would get there five hours early to be safe. I know that sounds crazy, but that's just where we're at right now. The good news is most smaller airports have not been severely impacted like that. You can give it two hours or three hours. Remember, airports are not a terrible place to hang out these days. You can shop, you can eat. I don't consider it wasted time. Better safe than sorry.

Brian Lehrer: Andrea, same question.

Andrea Sachs: Well, interestingly, I'm flying out of DCA on Saturday and flying into Boston Logan, and neither airport has been severely impacted. I still feel like the inter traveler is going, "Can I just show up an hour in advance?" I am going to look at-- I know the airports have their own lines, or they have their own clock in showing what the weights are for TSA security. I'm going to check those the day before to see around the same time, like what lines are like.

I'm leaving on Saturday, which is a totally different group of travelers than Friday, so I have to be aware of that. I'm just going to start to poke around from home and then determine what time I should leave. I'll probably give myself maybe two hours, two and a half.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe that's one of the most important tips you could give, that there are places you can go online for most airports and see before you leave home on your phone or whatever, what the lines are like?

Andrea Sachs: Yes, absolutely. As Clint told me last week when we worked together on some of these stories, it's important to check the airports' times and waits because they're updating it, whereas TSA has them as well. As we know, because of the partial shutdown, they are not.

Clint Henderson: Unless you're flying from Atlanta, which has given up and just says get to the airport four to five hours early.

Brian Lehrer: Right. In fact, we have a text from a listener who says, "I wanted to add my experience on Sunday night, waiting in line at Hartsfield-Jackson Airport in Atlanta for eight and a half hours." Listener writes, "I keep hearing programs mention four-hour waits, but it's actually much worse, or at least it was for that person on Sunday night." Clint, do you have a take on why it's so different at different airports, especially if they are airports of similar size?

Clint Henderson: It all depends on sick calls. You just have no idea the day ahead how many people are going to call out sick. I do feel like Atlanta has started to figure it out. They've got all these Delta employees now helping guide traffic. There's some Homeland Security officers there. Just make sure you're an informed consumer, and you know what's going on at your local airport.

Brian Lehrer: Andrea, same question?

Andrea Sachs: Well, DHS has been sending me, well, I request them, numbers, percentages of which airports have the highest callout rates. Every day, it changes slightly. Looking at the list that they sent me for yesterday, the highest is Houston and Houston, Hobby, Houston, the two airports in Houston. In the New York area, it's 33% at JFK and 20% at LaGuardia. We know LaGuardia is having an especially hard time after the crash. I know they're down to one runway, and airlines are having to cancel flights, and that's just chaos for another reason.

Overall, nationwide, the callout has been about just shy of 11%, which is ridiculously high. I did speak to some former TSA administrators today, and they said that they are moving TSA officers, ones that have not called in, to different airports to kind of plug in holes. That's also what ICE is supposed to do, but they are limited in terms of what they can do because they're not trained in screening processes.

Brian Lehrer: Clint, since you're at an airport right now, we know one of the developments in the last couple of days is the government is deploying ICE agents to fill in for the TSA agents. Of course, their training is very, very different. They won't show up at the airports with all the skills. Listener writes, "Have there been any actual examples of ICE helping travelers or TSA staff?" Did you see anything in Atlanta on your way in today that you can report on like that?

Clint Henderson: I did go to the airport yesterday and today, and I did see some Department of Homeland Security officers, but they were mostly standing around observing. I did not see them actually helping. In fact, they're not supposed to help. They need to be specially trained to actually assist with TSA duties. I'm not surprised by that. I think it's just kind of a show of force at this point to make sure that people are aware that the government is still involved in some form or fashion.

Brian Lehrer: Judy in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Judy.

Judy: Yes, hello. I have a question about the fact that TSA agents aren't being paid when every time we buy an airline ticket, there's a 9/11 security fee, which I'm looking it up right now, and that's precisely what it's for. The aviation companies send that fee to the TSA to cover the cost of security and screening. Why aren't they being paid?

Brian Lehrer: Why aren't they being paid? Well, are they at least, Andrea, if you know, going to get back pay once the shutdown ends?

Clint Henderson: They will get back pay, and the money goes into a general fund. That's part of the problem. It's not specifically for TSA pay.

Brian Lehrer: Right. We can hear the flight attendant in the background, I presume, or the pilot making pre-flight announcements on your Delta plane in Atlanta there. Andrea, there's an article in The Atlantic from yesterday with a headline, American Aviation is Near Collapse. Pretty dramatic title, but maybe not so far from the truth. The piece argues that these recent air travel issues are a symptom of broader issues that can be traced to decades of disinvestment in the aviation industry by the federal government.

We've seen a lot of not-so-great headlines in recent years about the industry as well. I'm thinking of a big piece in The New York Times a couple of years ago about how near misses, as they're called, are way more common than we think. As someone who follows aviation news really closely, what's your reaction to that argument? I don't know if you read the article or saw the headline. The "American Aviation is Near Collapse." Is that just overblown?

Andrea Sachs: I do think it's overblown, but I do see it's more troublesome than I've ever seen it in all my years of traveling personally and covering travel as a reporter. Because you wonder, are we just hearing it more because we have so many people on social media, so many people, I mean, just seeing all the TikToks of the lines and things of that sort? When people are stuck on the tarmac for several hours, we're just more aware of it because there's more of a spotlight and they're just more of these citizen reporters.

We are seeing like serious cracks in the foundation from the airline industry with air traffic control, which could be, I'm not saying we don't know, but could be part of the problem that happened with the LaGuardia crash, obviously TSA, and there's like push and pull between private enterprise and federal government and who's covering what and who's doing. It's just this patchwork. I do feel like it's crumbling, but I don't think it's going to fall apart. We need it. We will always need it, and we just need it to operate better.

Brian Lehrer: Andrea Sachs is a travel reporter for The Washington Post. Clint Henderson, from the plane, travel expert-

Clint Henderson: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: -and managing editor of The Points Guy. Thank you both very much for joining us.

Andrea Sachs: Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: That's The Brian Lehrer Show for today, produced by Lisa Allison, Mary Croke, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum, with help today from Sasha Linden Cohen and our interns this spring, Arlo Bivins and Jack Walker. Zach Gottehrer-Cohen produces our daily politics podcast. Megan Ryan is the head of live radio. Juliana Fonda and Milton Ruiz at the audio controls. Stay tuned for All Of It.

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