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Amina Srna: It's the Brian Lehrer Show. I'm Producer Amina Srna filling in for Brian today. Welcome back, everyone. Now, we'll end today's show with advice for non-citizens looking to travel in this new era of heightened scrutiny at airports, and border crossings in the United States. As the Trump administration cracks down on all immigration to this country, you've likely seen reports that numerous tourists, green card, and visa holders are facing trouble at airports when returning from trips abroad.

Countries like Canada, Denmark, Ireland, and Germany have issued travel warnings urging their citizens to avoid trips to the United States due to the possibility of arbitrary detention at customs and border crossings. With spring break season in full swing, and summer around the corner, many legal residents here in the United States are debating whether or not traveling outside of the country is safe at this time.

Joining me now to help you weigh the risks, and offer some advice before you head to an airport is Allan Wernick, legal advisor to CUNY Citizenship Now! CUNY's Free Immigration Law Service program. Hi, Allan. Welcome to WNYC.

Allan Wernick: Hi, good morning. Thanks for having me.

Amina Srna: Thanks for being here. Listeners, we'll open up the phones right away. Are you a non-citizen about to embark on a trip to your home country? Maybe you're debating whether, or not to book that long weekend island getaway package, or considering canceling your plans altogether in fears that you may be denied reentry to the United States. Have you come across advice on social media that you want to verify?

Call or text us now with your questions, and you may get some free advice. 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. I'll add, we will not charge you for any of this advice. Allan, before we get into this advice, can you start by helping listeners understand the current situation at our airports? What kind of troubles are non-citizens experiencing when returning back to the United States from abroad?

Allan Wernick: Well, people need to understand that customs and border protection officers have great leeway when it comes to examining your-- The information in your wallet, in your iPhone, in your computer, and they do not need a warrant in order to look at these documents, so people should expect the possibility that there will be scrutiny, especially people coming from countries who were under the last travel ban, particularly, countries from the Middle East.

There's some differences between people who are permanent residents, and people who are not, so permanent residents, refugees, and asylees cannot be turned away without a hearing. People who are here coming on visitors, or other non-immigrant visas, can be turned, can be sent back to their home country, or the country from which they departed without a hearing.

Typically, what happens is, if the inspector believes that the person is not eligible for admission, they're often given the opportunity to withdraw their application for admission, and go home. For most people, that's probably the best action to take, if it appears that the government is not going to let you into the United States, and of course, this is not just a recent thing. There are people who have been turned back over the decades for various reasons.

For instance, because they have evidence that they have been working in the United States on previous visits. It's only recently that-- It's been many decades since people were turned away for political activity, so I would be particularly concerned coming into the United States, if you have on your social media, expressed very strong political views about the current administration, or if you have been provided leadership, or public role in those kinds of political activities.

Amina Srna: Allan, as you can imagine, we are already getting a bunch of callers-

Allan Wernick: Good.

Amina Srna: -with their questions, and their personal experiences. We do have just a few more lines left, so I want to give that number out one more time. 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692, and you can also text that number. Let's go to Erica in Brooklyn. Hi, Erica, you're on WNYC.

Erica: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I'm a longtime listener. I called because when I heard the subject, it spoke to me really deeply, because my fiancé is a German green card holder, or he's a green card holder from Germany, and he's been here for almost 30 years. We were talking about getting married, and we were planning to do it in Iceland, because it was a place that both of us wanted to do it.

I spoke with several friends who were lawyers, who said, "Don't leave the country, because you don't know that he'll be allowed back in, nor do you know that your marriage will be recognized in the United States." I was just absolutely horrified to hear this. I'm not surprised, but horrified.

Amina Srna: Erica, thank you so much for your call, and congratulations on your engagement, even though wedding planning sounds like it's pretty stressful right now. Allan, where do you want to weigh in on this? There's a couple of different things happening in Erica's situation, right?

Allan Wernick: Yes. First of all, as to the validity of the marriage, as long as it's valid in the country, or locale where the marriage took place, it will be recognized by the Immigration Service, so that should not be a problem. Also, 30 years here, maybe your fiancé wants to become a US citizen, which provides many more protections and rights, so you made a good point about travel during spring break, because I've been getting a lot of questions from permanent residents who wanted to-- Young people, particularly, who want to travel.

I'm just going to read you what I wrote to somebody who asked me about that. "My view is that travel is safe, if the person's not posted anything sharply anti-US on social media, or participated in pro-Palestinian demonstrations, where they may have been targeted by somebody who wants to create problems to people who engage in those activities.

If there was nothing questionable about a permanent resident application, in other words, when the fiancé got permanent residence, everything was done on the up and up. There was no lies, or fraud, or misrepresentations. He hasn't gotten a criminal-- He or she has not gotten a criminal conviction since getting a green card, and he or she returns within six months."

When I wrote to this person who asked me about it, I said, "Bottom line, if it was my child," because this person just wants to go on a pleasure trip with his friends from college. I said, "If it was my child. I'd say take the trip, but I probably lose a lot of sleep until she returns, until he returns." Typically, permanent residents do not have as hard a time getting back into the United States. I think, given the nature of this trip, it was my family member, I would say, go ahead and take it. Again, with the caveats that I mentioned.

Amina Srna: You were briefly speaking about marriage licenses being accepted, so just to put a fine point on that. I mean, should Erica consider getting legally married in the United States before she leaves, and then having maybe a ceremony in Iceland, or something like that?

Allan Wernick: Well, no, I think that's--

Amina Srna: Too much?

Allan Wernick: -more than it's necessary. I think it's-- Look, my view is this, always has been, if a person is particularly fearful about something, and it makes them feel better to take an extra, but unnecessary step, then they should do it. If she feels, if you feel that this is going to make you cranky, and not enjoy your wedding, then, yes, go to City Hall and get married, and then just have the ceremony there, but I don't think it's required.

Amina Srna: Here's a text, and I believe that you were alluding to this in your first answer. "What about people of Middle Eastern descent who were born in the United States, grew up here, and have no political record, but who might be detained because of the color of their skin?"

Allan Wernick: I don't think that's likely. I don't think that's a big concern. They may-- They should, however, be prepared to have extra scrutiny when applying to enter the United States, but I don't think that they will be denied entry. It's not something I would be concerned about.

Amina Srna: Here's one that gets a little bit-- A caller that gets a little bit more in the weeds, I believe, a more specific situation, I should say. Osley in Brooklyn. Hi, Osley, you're on WNYC.

Osley: Hi, thanks for taking my call. Longtime listener, first time caller. I am calling, actually, on behalf of my husband, who is a green card holder, and recently applied for citizenship because his green card was expiring, so he applied. He has a piece of paper that says that his citizenship is in progress, and as long as it's in progress with this piece of paper, his green card will be extended for, I think, two years. Currently, his green card has expired, I think, as of this week. He was planning on going back to see his relatives next week, so now I'm a little worried if that piece of paper is going to be enough.

Allan Wernick: It'll be fine. Again, based on that with the caveats that I previously mentioned.

Osley: Right. Okay.

Amina Srna: Do you have a follow up question, Osley?

Osley: No, I do not. That's great to hear. He thinks so, so if you think so, that's great.

Amina Srna: Thank you so much for your call, and best of luck. Safe travels. Let's go to Nicholas in Westchester. I believe similar green card limbo pending renewal question, maybe slightly different. Nicholas, hi, you're on WNYC.

Nicholas: Hi, thanks for taking my call. We're in a situation. I'm a US citizen, my wife is a Ukrainian who is a green card holder, which similar to the last caller, has expired, I believe, as of 2023. Now, she's looking-- It's the same thing. We've approved, we've applied for the extension which is still pending. It's been two years now, which is normal. At the same time, we've applied for naturalization as of earlier this year, so she also has a piece of paper saying this is extended.

That being said, considering that the green card expired 2023, we are nearing that two-year extension. She wants to travel this summer, and we are concerned about reentry. I should mention, we have a newborn son that is both German, and American in citizenship, which is where she wants to travel to.

Amina Srna: Allan.

Allan Wernick: The general-- [crosstalk] Go ahead. I'm sorry.

Amina Srna: No, please go ahead.

Allan Wernick: The general rule is, that if you apply for citizenship before your permanent residence expires, you do get that two-year extension, and will-- Do you expect the extension to expire before she returns from her trip?

Amina Srna: Nicholas?

Nicholas: Well, we don't know. It's been two years. I believe it was summer of 2023, so we're nearing that expiration. We might get word by then for either the green card, or the naturalization-

Allan Wernick: The thing is--

Nicholas: -but so far we have not.

Allan Wernick: What sometimes happens, when a person's permanent residence card is expired, they are still nevertheless a permanent resident. In other words, the fact that the card is expired, doesn't mean that the permanent residence has expired, so I think travel is safe. Sometimes, there's a little bit of hassle at reentry. Sometimes in the past, to be honest, I can't remember the current rule on this, sometimes they would charge a fee to the person, but your wife is a permanent resident of the United States, and the fact that she has an expired card, doesn't change that.

It would be like if she lost the card. Let's say, it got flushed down the toilet on the plane, for just as a silly example, she's still a permanent resident. She still has a right to enter the United States.

Nicholas: May I ask a follow up question?

Amina Srna: Yes, please.

Nicholas: We do hear a lot that it's up to, or we know from experience also that it's up to the agent on the ground upon reentry, and it's at their discretion whether our reentry is valid or not. Is there any merit to traveling back with her as the United States citizen, based on which she has the green card, and pending naturalization in the first place?

Allan Wernick: Sure. I mean there's no reason not to take documentation. The other thing is, I also always suggest people try to return in major airports like JFK, or in the major airports in DC, or Philadelphia, or Los Angeles, because the officers there have more experience, typically, than at smaller airports. Let me just ask you one question.

When you say you applied for an extension for your wife's green card application, that was not to remove the condition based on a marriage [unintelligible 00:14:49] right? In other words, she didn't have a two-year card, and then applied for a new card. She had a 10-year card, and it just expired. Is that accurate?

Nicholas: That is not accurate. It was exactly that, a two-year card based on marriage for which we are now removing the conditions to then receive the 10-year card. Which, again, hopefully, becomes obsolete once she gets her naturalization in order.

Allan Wernick: That's correct. I mean, I haven't heard of anyone having problems in this situation. If the travel is for pleasure, and not a family-- If it was a family or business reason to travel, I would say go ahead. If it is for pleasure, I just don't know. It's interesting-- Let me just say on a personal note, I always felt the strength of my advice was based on my many decades of experience, and I was able to predict pretty much what's going to happen, and this situation is so turbulent that, I just really can't say.

Nicholas: Can I ask one last question that might pertain to some other things also? [crosstalk]

Amina Srna: Nicholas, very briefly. We have so many callers that we're not going to be able to get to, but if you can make it brief.

Nicholas: Very brief. When she applied originally for a green card, she did mark that she worked originally. She was originally here on a student visa, but she did say she worked. Under student visa, you're not allowed to work. At the time, that was no problem. This was during--[crosstalk]

Allan Wernick: [crosstalk] Now, pardon me for interrupting, but here's the thing. When you marry a US citizen, you apply for your green card. Unauthorized employment is not a factor that the government is allowed to consider, so whether she worked unauthorized was irrelevant to her application for a green card. If it was based on her marriage to you, which apparently it was.

Amina Srna: Thank you so much for your call, Nicholas. Hopefully, a bunch of different aspects in there that are applicable to a bunch of our callers. Briefly, in our few remaining minutes, Allan, text says, "I've heard from a colleague from Europe that a student with a visa was denied entry into the United States at immigration, because they checked their phone and did a keyword search for Trump, which showed text messages with negative perspective on the administration. What is being searched for, and should people allow immigration to search their personal items like this?"

Amina Srna: When the person's coming on a non-immigrant visa versus coming in as a permanent resident, the government has-- The inspector has great leeway in terms of turning that person back, so if you don't let the person check your phone, you're just going to be sent back. If you let the person check your phone, so first I've heard that somebody said just being anti-Trump, but you recall my general advice, if a person has that kind of information on their phone, and they try to come in on any kind of non-immigrant visa, student visa, visitor's visa, temporary work visa, there's a good chance that they're going to be sent back, and there's not much you can do about it, because there's very little rights that you have.

Amina Srna: Got you. One very last question, very quickly. A texter writes, "I am DACA, and a friend is celebrating his birthday in Puerto Rico. Any advice?"

Allan Wernick: First of all, DACA people are an exception, who travel on advanced parole, which does not apply in this case, because you don't need advanced parole to go to Puerto Rico, but going to Puerto Rico is not the same as coming to the United States from a foreign country, but people are inspected occasionally at random at airports in Puerto Rico. A person with DACA should not have a problem, provided their DACA has not expired. They should travel with all their documents. Of course, provided they have not committed a crime since getting DACA.

Amina Srna: Exactly.

Allan Wernick: Should not have a problem going to Puerto Rico. They should be prepared for possible inspection.

Amina Srna: Exactly. Going to their concern of having to interact with border agents in general. We will have to leave it there for today. My guest has been Allan Wernick, legal advisor to CUNY Citizenship Now! Allan, can you briefly tell listeners how to find you, if they need any more advice?

Allan Wernick: Well, citizens should go to CUNY Citizenship Now! on-- Let me get [chuckles] the exact website. Let's see.

Amina Srna: CUNY Citizenship Now! I think it's easily Googleable.

Allan Wernick: You said very easily Google--

Amina Srna: We'll link to it on our website as well on our show.

Allan Wernick: Great. Thank you so much, and you can get a free consultation. All our services are free.

Amina Srna: Allan, thank you so much for all of your time today. I think enormously helpful to all of our listeners. Thanks.

Allan Wernick: Thank you.

Amina Srna: The Brian Lehrer Show producers are Lisa Allison, Mary Croke, me, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum. Our intern is Henry Saringer. Megan Ryan is head of Live Radio. Juliana Fonda and Milton Ruiz and Shayna Sengstock are at the audio controls today. I'm Amina Srna, and this is the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Stay tuned for All Of It.

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