Brigid Bergin: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin, senior reporter in the WNYC and Gothamist newsroom, sitting in for Brian today. Shortly after soon-to-be Mayor Zohran Mamdani was elected, there were rumors that outgoing Mayor Eric Adams would attempt to undercut one of Mamdani's most prominent campaign promises, freezing the rent for 1 million households in rent-stabilized apartments. The rumors came true last night, at least in part. Mayor Adams made four appointments to the Rent Guidelines Board, a move that will make it harder for Mamdani to keep that promise in the first year of his term.

WNYC and Gothamist's housing reporter, David Brand, was the first to report on this, and he's going to tell us more about it in a moment. We're also going to look at two affordable housing bills that passed in the city council yesterday, one of which both the incoming and outgoing mayors seem pretty keen to veto. We'll talk about the fate of the controversial short-term rental bill that will allow Airbnbs to return to New York City. David Brand joins me now to talk about all of this news. Hey David, I'm glad you have time to be here with me when you're not busy scooping up all the news.

David Brand: Glad to be here, Brigid, and always have time to go on Brian Lehrer Show and talk with you about housing in New York City because there's a lot to talk about.

Brigid Bergin: There sure is. Let's start with the news of Eric Adams' Rent Guidelines Board appointees. Who are they? What do we know about them?

David Brand: For listeners, the Rent Guidelines Board, nine-member board that sets the rent increase for tenants in about a million rent-stabilized apartments every year under Mayor Adams, they did about a 12% total rent increase, an average of 3% a year for tenants in those rent-stabilized units. I think, as everyone listening knows, Mamdani really catapulted to prominence on a viral campaign slogan of freeze the rent. He was talking about appointing members to the Rent Guidelines Board who would vote to not increase the rent, to freeze it, to keep it at current levels. Mamdani said that his Rent Guidelines Board would do that every year of his mayoralty.

It became clear that Adams was going to try to stymie that, and for the past few months has been searching for new appointees that he could install. Yesterday, he officially did name two new appointees to the Rent Guidelines Board. He reappointed two current members. That brings the number of Adams appointees on the Board to five, who will last into at least the first year of Mamdani's tenure. That's going to make it harder. Mamdani isn't going to be able to control or influence the members as easily as he might have if he was the one who installed them. Five members are going to carry over into his term.

Brigid Bergin: What do we know about the folks? Besides the fact that there are reappointments from current members, is there anything that indicates to you now that these are people that will absolutely oppose rent hikes?

David Brand: Well, so the board is made of two tenant representatives, usually tenant attorneys or tenant organizers. Two landlord representatives, typically, landlord attorneys, represent landlords in housing court eviction cases. Then there are five public members, they're called. They are tasked with studying housing data and listening to the experiences of tenants and landlords, and taking a more neutral position. The people that Adams appointed yesterday, one is a tenant attorney for the nonprofit Legal Services NYC, so definitely tenant-focused.

I don't know that much about him. I've talked with him a few times, but he's not-- a lot of tenant attorneys are very active in tenant rights organizing. I don't think he's that prominent in that way. Then this other person is named Lliam Finn. He's a financial advisor with Merrill Lynch. I talked with him very briefly yesterday. He just said, "I'm happy to serve the city. I don't know much about him. I have heard that the Real Estate Board of New York, REBNY, did some of the vetting on these candidates because they have to go through an approval process. If there are red flags in their past, it's like a background check; they should be eliminated.

Sounds like these people probably did go through that process.

Brigid Bergin: It's interesting because Mamdani has some very ambitious items on his agenda. This was one of the few items that did not require Albany to enact it. What do you think is behind Adams' decision to spoil his effort? This is his democratically elected successor?

David Brand: A lot of people have criticized that freeze-the-rent concept. They say right now, the way the state rules are, the state laws for rent-stabilized housing is you can only increase rent pretty much through these annual rent increases allowed by the Rent Guidelines Board. There's a few other ways, a little more complicated, but in the past, until 2019, you could raise rent 20% on an empty unit, or you could do more, what's called individual apartment improvements or major capital improvements. If you do work on a building or an apartment, you can factor in the cost of that into a rent increase.

Those have been limited, and you can't increase rents on vacant apartments anymore. Opponents of the freeze-the-rent idea say, "Look, this is the only way that landlords can increase their revenue." Ideally, they would invest that money back into the building, and so if buildings have maintenance problems, if there are repairs that need to be made, they need to increase their rents to handle those. There's also buildings that are in financial distress. There's a few hundred buildings around the city, rent-stabilized buildings where costs exceed revenue from rent. They say those landlords need to be able to increase their profits so that they can fix other buildings.

Brigid Bergin: David, a question I have that I'll combine with a listener's question. Does this just slam the door on Mamdani's ability to get this done next year? A listener texts, "Can't he just fire Adam's appointees and put in his own?"

David Brand: Those are open questions. We've reported on that here, if that is allowed. There is law about firing people for cause, but it's very vague and hasn't been tested, so he could try that. He said yesterday in response to this that he's still committed to a four-year rent freeze and that he's going to use every tool at his disposal. He could say, "Look, you gotta go," and then force them to sue to remain in place. It's a thankless job. It's one of the reasons it took Eric Adams a long time to find some replacements, until two weeks before he leaves, is because a lot of people don't want to do this job. It's a lot of work.

You have to go to these hearings. You have to consider a lot of data. It's a big responsibility, and everyone hates you. Tenants don't like you because you are going to probably raise the rents. Landlords don't like you because you're not raising the rent enough. The hearings that the board has for when they set their preliminary range and then their final vote is it's a circus. People are yelling at you, it's a tradition of disruption, and people even going on stage making noise. It is a thankless job, so someone has to have some thick skin to do this role.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, we'd love to hear from any landlords or rent-stabilized tenants who want to react to Adams spoiling Mamdani's rent freeze promise. What about those of you who volunteered for Mamdani's campaign and convinced your neighbors to vote for him on the premise that he would deliver a rent freeze? What's your next move? We can also take your calls for or against any of the housing bills coming out of the city council. There's the Airbnb bill, one that would build more affordable two and three bedrooms, and another one that could see local nonprofits entering the real estate business.

You can call or text us with your comments and questions. The number 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. David, just before we get into these city council bills, let's talk for a moment. This morning, Mayor-Elect Mamdani announced a new deputy mayor for housing. Who is it, and what do you know about this person so far? Another scoop of yours, I should mention.

David Brand: [chuckles] Another story we first reported. Mamdani is naming Leila Bozorg as his deputy mayor for housing and planning. It's an interesting pick because Bozorg actually works at city hall now. She is the city's executive director for housing, and she's been in that role under Mayor Adams since January 2024. She has been involved in overseeing the Department of Housing Preservation and Development. She was very involved in the city of, yes, zoning reforms that changed land use rules in every neighborhood in the city to spur a little more development.

She also served as secretary on the Charter Revision Commission that Mayor Adams assembled, where listeners may remember those questions on their ballot that all had to do with housing and fast-tracking or streamlining housing construction in the city. Those came out of that Charter Revision Commission. She helped assemble those questions. She's been involved in a lot. It's an interesting pick. She's well-liked among housing advocates or well respected among housing advocates. She has this experience in government and working with nonprofits, with private developers.

What's interesting about it is it marks a continuation under Mamdani, I think, of current city housing development policies. For all of Mamdani running in opposition to Adams when it comes to housing, there's a lot of common ground.

Brigid Bergin: That's so interesting. Listeners, if you're just joining us, this is the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin, filling in today. With me is WNYC and Gothamist reporter David Brand. We're talking through a whole bunch of housing stories coming out of city hall from the current administration and the incoming administration. Also, yesterday at the last stated meeting of the city council. Yesterday, they passed two affordable housing bills, but one seems to have a few more obstacles ahead of it. Tell us about the bill you describe as "a cure for the disappearing three-bedroom".

David Brand: A number of housing bills were up for debate in recent weeks. Then they all came to a head yesterday at the first final city council meeting of this city council term. Like Speaker Adrienne Adams is on her way out, a number of other lame duck council members. Let's talk about the bills that did pass. You mentioned the bill, the "cure for the disappearing three-bedroom." City Council Member Eric Dinowitz of the Bronx introduced this bill that would require affordable housing financed by the city to include at least 25% of apartments had to be two bedrooms and 15% of apartments, three bedrooms.

Right now, the vast majority of units that are constructed in affordable housing are studios and one bedrooms. Another bill that passed would have requirements for how many very low-income affordable housing units. Units, apartments with rents priced for the lowest-income New Yorkers. There's a new threshold there in this bill. Those two bills, I think to a lot of people sound like very positive, but there was opposition across the political spectrum. You mentioned earlier, the Adams administration opposed these. Zohran Mamdani and his housing advisors opposed these.

Their argument is that these are going to put constraints on their ability to create more affordable housing if they then have to carve out more space for larger units. If there are these affordability requirements where developers would have to hit. They're saying it's going to increase construction costs and probably limit the number of apartments. It's going to be interesting to see what happens next. Mayor Adams has signaled that he could veto these. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. If he does, it could actually be good politically for Mamdani because Mamdani doesn't like these bills, but it would be probably a tough look for him to veto an affordable housing bill.

Adams could veto it. It could go into the next administration, and maybe Mamdani does. There's some political intrigue here because we mentioned those charter revision commission ballot measures to spur housing development. The city council hated those measures because it took a lot of the power away from them. Then they introduced these affordable housing and family-sized unit bills to say, "Look, if you're going to take our power away when it comes to approving zoning plans and affordable housing, we're going to set some thresholds here so that you have to create these larger units and that you have to include units for the lowest income New Yorkers."

Brigid Bergin: David, I hear you that it would probably be a bad look for Mamdani to have one of his first initial actions be a veto of affordable housing legislation. Yet he does come into office with some tools that no other mayor had in those ballot amendments that you reported on a whole ton, and which passed. If Adams does not take action, is there a world where Mamdani also doesn't take action and lets this take effect, but then has these other tools at his disposal that could help him still achieve his goals?

David Brand: Yes, I guess that remains to be seen. I think it's possible. It's definitely going to make it easier and faster to get approvals for land use changes that will allow affordable housing. One of those ballot measures, in particular, was a fast-track process for 100% affordable housing. In that way, that'll be easier and save time, probably save a lot of costs related to how long the process can take. If these council bills become law, maybe that offsets some of the cost. The city's Department of Housing Preservation Development came out with how much they estimated these would these bills would cost. They said it would add about $600 million to current affordable housing construction.

They were saying, "Our budget is $2 billion, so this is going to be a big chunk of the budget, and it's going to lead to less housing overall." Supporters would say, "Look, it's about quantity. We need a lot of units, but it's also about quality. We need units for families, and we need units for the lowest income people, especially when you see the homelessness population is higher than it's ever been."

Brigid Bergin: David, the council also passed a bill that goes by the acronym COPA. What does that stand for, and what could this bill do?

David Brand: This is the Community Opportunity to Purchase Act, or COPA. In some circumstances, it would give nonprofits or private developers approved by the city, or even tenant groups, an opportunity to purchase apartment buildings before they hit the open market. This would specifically apply to buildings where the owners have tax arrears, they owe property taxes, where there's a ton of housing code violations, and that these buildings are in such bad shape that they've entered what the city calls its alternative enforcement program, where the city is already sending contractors in to make repairs and then billing the landlord.

In cases where a building is subject to a regulatory agreement that caps rents so there's affordable housing in it, but that that agreement is about to expire. You think of these 25 to 35-year tax breaks that developers get after building an apartment building. They don't have to pay property taxes, but in exchange, they make a certain number of units affordable, but once that expires, they can bring those units up to market rate. Before they do that, now, these tenant groups, nonprofits, and some private developers would have an opportunity to purchase the building and keep rents affordable.

Brigid Bergin: I understand the real estate industry was not in support of this legislation. I think you wrote that they wanted to torpedo this bill. Why is it striking such a nerve?

David Brand: It's another regulation, and real estate industry does not like layering regulations on top of regulations. They also say it creates this artificial-- I don't know how to say it, but they have to-- it slows sales, and it limits who they could sell to. It makes them have to plan ahead of time to announce, "Okay, we're selling this building. Can you guys put together the money to buy it instead of just being able to sell it?" Then, in the case of a regulatory agreement running out, they want that to happen. They want to be able to raise the rents from affordable rates to market rates and make as much money as they, and so they don't want anything getting in the way of that.

Brigid Bergin: Any signs of where the mayor and mayor-elect stand on this particular bill?

David Brand: I don't think Adams likes it. It's definitely taken a back seat to those other bills we talked about that he may veto, but Mamdani is a supporter. He's rallied for this measure. It's been gaining momentum over the past three to five years, getting more counsel support. Even in his campaign platform, he said that the city should enact this legislation.

Brigid Bergin: Before we get into the legislation that the council did not adopt, I want to bring in some of our listeners. Let's go to Kavina in Brooklyn, who is a rent-stabilized tenant. Kavina, thanks for calling.

Kavina: Hi there. Like you said, I'm a rent-stabilized tenant, and I'm also a public librarian, and I can barely afford my rent-stabilized apartment in Flatbush, and I make twice as much as some of the other union titles at the Brooklyn Public Library who are full-time. It doesn't seem possible that we can go on like this, being charged this much and having these increases. My union salary hasn't been going up the same percentage points that my rent-stabilized apartment has been.

Brigid Bergin: Kavina, thank you for your story. We're wishing you some luck in dealing with it. We have another perspective, that's, I think, another side of that. That's Mona in Manhattan. Mona, you're on WNYC.

Mona: Hi. First, I have sympathy for the prior caller. I voted for Mamdani, but I disagreed with his zero interest on the rent-stabilized apartments because I know that I already have a sweet deal in Manhattan, and there's a lot of people who don't. I think that it's unrealistic not to allow the landlords to have any increase in the rent if we want the buildings to be kept up and maintained, and that sort of thing.

Brigid Bergin: Mona, just to be clear, you are also a rent-stabilized tenant?

Mona: Yes, I am.

Brigid Bergin: Okay, thank you so much. David, here we've got reactions from two rent-stabilized tenants on different sides of this issue. It's going to be a thorny thing to deal with in the new year.

David Brand: Yes, and to what Kavina said, I think so many people in New York City have that experience. That's why the Mamdani campaign resonated with so many people. He was calling out unaffordability and saying, "These are some concrete steps to make life more affordable to tenants." To Mona's point, why shouldn't landlords be able to raise rent to make more revenue? I think what supporters of a rent freeze in the Mamdani campaign, and Mamdani specifically, would say is, why should that fall on tenants? Why can't we lower insurance costs? Which is something I've reported on a lot, that property insurance, liability insurance is going through the roof. It's doubled or tripled in recent years.

That's a higher expense. What about property tax reform? This is like the perennial quest in New York City to reform the property tax code so that apartment building owners are paying a fairer rate compared to other building owners. If we would lower property taxes, lower insurance rates, then owners wouldn't need to depend on rent increases. Those are a lot more complicated, though. Those are harder. You need state approval for these things in the insurance industry, private market. That's why a lot of the conversation falls on rent.

Brigid Bergin: I want to shift to the bill that did not pass the city council. I have been referring to it as The Airbnb bill, and I have received and I have noticed multiple texts from listeners who are pushing back against that, saying, "Don't call it just the Airbnb bill." I want to bring in a listener, Tanya in Brooklyn, who I think is probably among those who says it's about more than Airbnb. Tanya, you're on WNYC.

Tanya: Hello.

Brigid Bergin: Go ahead.

Tanya: Hi. I think you asked for me, but my connection sounds slow. Yes, I just need to point out that this is not about Airbnb. Airbnb is a company. Airbnb is a platform. It's a tool. It's just like Uber. It's a tool that people use to manage what they're doing. This issue, the 948B, 1107, you don't cope with, to a certain extent, it's about small property owners. We need representation. New York State is the fifth on the list of the states with the strongest tenant protections. New York State is number five. These bills would have given small property owners, owner-occupied small property owners, the right to leverage our properties in a way that benefits us.

It's not about Airbnb and saying that it's Airbnb doing this; it's wrong, and it's moving focus away from what the actual issue should be. The purpose of the bill was to help small property owners, not Airbnb. Imagine if you take Airbnb out of the equation, small property owners still get to do what they need to do. Airbnb is a tool. Calling it the Airbnb bill, it removes attention away from the actual focus. It's owner-occupied small property owners here in the city.

Brigid Bergin: Tanya, just to be clear, I'm guessing you are one of those small property owners in the city who would want to be able to use some sort of short-term rental or make available. Is that correct? Did we lose Tanya?

Tanya: I'm sorry, I can barely hear you. [crosstalk]

Brigid Bergin: All right, Tanya, I appreciate your call because we could hear you very clearly. David, let's talk about the legislation that she was referring to there. This was what was commonly known as an Airbnb bill, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there was some support potentially from the company lobbying for this legislation. Didn't the city place a de facto ban on short-term rentals just a few years ago? What are the current rules, and what was this going to change?

David Brand: I definitely hear what Tanya is saying. Airbnb has become shorthand for short-term rentals and visiting a place and not going to a hotel, but renting someone's home or someone's apartment, but it is a company. To step back, for decades, New York City has had very strict rules limiting rentals of less than 30 days. This is going back decades, well before Airbnb became a company. Airbnb and other services Vrbo, other short-term rental platforms, did allow people to rent out their apartments or rent out their homes and circumvent those restrictions.

Two years ago, the city enacted a stricter enforcement law that prevented Airbnb, Vrbo, other companies from processing payments to "hosts" unless those hosts had received specific approval from the city to rent out the units as short-term rentals. That's been the number one mission of Airbnb in recent years. They have poured millions of dollars lobbying into council races in New York City to try to chip away at the restrictions and specifically that rule. This measure that was coming up for debate and ultimately did not even get a vote in the council yesterday, and so it's dead.

This measure would have changed the rules to allow one and two-family homeowners to rent out a unit in their homes that they owned, not rented, to up to four adults and children without getting that approval from the city. It would have been a change. Supporters of the measure say, "Look, we were making money from this. We're small homeowners, we want to have more financial flexibility, rent out part of our homes, rent out an apartment in our building." What the bill was really supposed to do was to prevent apartment building owners from evicting everyone from their building and turning a big multifamily apartment building into a de facto hotel.

We're just making these changes to allow one and two-family homeowners more flexibility. Council did not go for that. The hotel industry and the hotel labor union is-- just as I said, Airbnb's number one mission was to get this bill passed. One of their number one missions, probably their number one mission, was to kill this bill, and they won. We will not have short-term rental reform in the foreseeable future in New York City.

Brigid Bergin: That could set up a whole new politics conversation, David, but I'm sure we'll have that in the new year, and we're going to leave it there for now. My guest has been my colleague David Brand, housing reporter here at WNYC and Gothamist. We just call him Scoop. Thanks, David, for joining me.

David Brand: Thanks a lot, Brigid.

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