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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. I mentioned earlier that one of the things we're doing during this membership drive on the show is sampling from The Brian Lehrer Show Spring Bookshelf. A lot of interesting books, some by famous people, some by less famous people out this spring. We put a lot of books together for this show, at least one a day, sometimes two a day. We had Frank Bruni on last hour. Interesting to hear that spot about his event coming up as well. Frank Bruni for The Age of Grievance to start the show today.

Now, back in 2012, the developmental clinical psychologist Dr. Meg Jay wrote a book, The Defining Decade: Why Your Twenties Matter--And How to Make the Most of Them Now. She was on the show for that book back then. We talked about how the twentysomething brain develops, how that development impacts the rest of their lives, and more, and it really resonated with a lot of people. Her book has since sold more than 500,000 copies in these 12 years, and her TED talk on the topic has over three and a half million views.

Now, Dr. Jay is out with a new book that offers advice for navigating the struggles of young adults today. The new book is titled The Twentysomething Treatment: A Revolutionary Remedy for an Uncertain Age. She joins us now. A lot has changed in this country since 2012, though some of the developmental basics, of course, have not. Dr. Jay, welcome back to WNYC.

Dr. Meg Jay: Oh, it's great to be here, Brian. It's so great to talk to you again.

Brian Lehrer: Not to bury the lede, do you think life is harder for twentysomethings today in general than it was in 2012?

Dr. Meg Jay: Oh, gosh, that is a great question. Let's just say it's definitely not easy. The 20s are probably going to be the most uncertain years of your life, personally, developmentally, and they're certainly very uncertain years globally, nationally, politically, in every way. The 20s are a tough time.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take a few phone calls. Any twentysomethings out there listening or parents of twentysomethings or grandparents of twentysomethings? What's the hardest part of being in your 20s today in your experience? Tell everyone else. 212-433-WNYC, or ask Dr. Jay a question, an informational question, or an advice question. Listeners, do you think it's harder today or maybe not much different than in 2012 to be in your 20s? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Give us a call. We can take some phone calls for Dr. Meg Jay during this segment. Do you have a clinical practice where you see individuals?

Dr. Meg Jay: I do. I absolutely do. No matter how much I'm writing or speaking or doing other things, individual conversations with twentysomethings are really what keep me going.

Brian Lehrer: What's the most common issue or a couple of issues that people are presenting with these days?

Dr. Meg Jay: Well, the most common mental issue is what we were just referencing to uncertainty around pretty much everything; work, love, life, finances, future, politics, climate, you name it. How that often shows up in terms of mental health. The five most common mental health complaints amongst young adults are anxiety, depression, suicidality, substance use, and trauma. I spend a lot of time working with those.

Brian Lehrer: Again, different from in 2012, I'm sure it's popping into a lot of listeners' minds, "Well, 2012 was way before the pandemic," although it was in the middle of a financial crisis, which was--

Dr. Meg Jay: A recession. Right. Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Making it hard to break into the workforce.

Dr. Meg Jay: Yes. I think it's really difficult to parse that question of, are people struggling with their mental health more now than they were 25 years ago? I have been doing this 25 years, so I've seen the evolution. I think we're talking about it more. We're more aware of it, which is both great and not great. We can talk about that. For the 25 years I've been doing this, the 20s have been a very difficult time, really a mental health low point because people go from relatively structured years to suddenly very uncertain, turbulent years.

The brain doesn't like that. It doesn't feel great. As the adult milestones have pushed upward closer to 30, people spend a lot of years not sure whether their lives are going to work out. I think for older adults, you look back and you think, oh, it's so easy not to have a house or a spouse or career or kids, but it's actually hard not to have those things, especially if you don't know if you ever will.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Caitlin in Hoboken, you're on WNYC. Hi, Caitlin. Thanks for calling in.

Caitlin: Hi, Brian. Thank you for having me. I wanted to call in because I'm an artist, I'm an opera singer, I'm 24 years old, and that's been a little bit of a struggle just because I have a little bit of difficulty seeing what the rest of my life is going to look like financially. My parents at this age, they had a house, they were married, and everything like that.

Dr. Meg Jay: Yes, exactly. I'm a Gen Xer, so when I was in my 20s, I didn't have that stuff together either. I think it's becoming, across the generations, more and more common for people to have the house and the spouse and the kids and the career, if that's what you're looking for. These things are more likely to come together closer to 30 than they are to 20. Developmentally, that sounds very normal to me, but it does feel very uncertain when young adults are saying, "I don't know how this is going to add up. I don't know how this is going to work out."

I actually just did a little Instagram video about breaking down your 20s. This might interest you, Caitlin. I was saying that at 21, think one year ahead. At 22, think two years ahead. At 24, think three years ahead, and at 27, think four years ahead. Try not to do too much future-tripping about how am I going to get from here to 35. I think you said you were 24. Maybe just think three years from now. Where do I want to be with my art, with my opera singing, with my bill paying, with my friends, family, whatever it is that are your goals? Where do I want to be three years from now and what does that mean I need to do now to get there?

Brian Lehrer: Really interesting. Caitlin, thank you very much for starting us off. Victoria in Manhattan, I think, is going to overlap with Caitlin in an interesting way. Victoria, you're on WNYC. Thank you so much for calling in.

Victoria: Hi, how are you?

Dr. Meg Jay: Hi, Victoria.

Victoria: Yes. I think the hardest part about being twentysomething, I'm 23, is just the uncertainty of financially not knowing where you're going to end up. You don't even know what the point of it is really. Not to be depressing, but why should I put my one foot in front of the other if the amount of money that I am saving is not going to go anywhere because just living is so expensive?

Dr. Meg Jay: Right. I totally get it, the uncertainty, the depression that can go along with that, the hopelessness. A few data points that might help you, Victoria, your average twentysomething is going to have nine different jobs by the time they're age 35. I think those early twentysomething jobs are often not inspirational, and fortunately, not our last jobs. Most people end up in jobs or careers that they've never heard of when they were 23 or that maybe didn't even exist yet.

If I think about what I was doing at 23, I think I was working as an outdoor educator, and by 35, I was starting the career that I'm doing now. A lot happens between 23 and 35, and I think you do just have to take it, as I was saying a minute ago, one or two or three years at a time so you don't get overwhelmed. Just because you can't see where it's going doesn't mean it's not going somewhere.

Victoria: Right. I hear that. It's not only coming from the people who are my age, who are 23, a lot of my friends are in their 30s. My coworkers are in their 30s, and they're living in very small means, so it just makes me so nervous.

Dr. Meg Jay: Yes, of course. I think that it is hard being a young adult in our culture and our country at this time. Certainly not to trivialize that as much as to say, I think we all just do what we can and figure out where do I want to try to get one or two years at a time, not to worry too much about how life is going to look in my 30s. I think it does help to look at some older friends and family and see what's working for them, what's not working for them, what can I learn from that, and what steps can I follow.

Brian Lehrer: Victoria, thank you. Good luck. Call us again. There's a very central piece of advice that you're giving here to people, especially in their young 20s. Don't look too far ahead, which might be the opposite of what they might hear from their parents or from some other people. "Where do you want to be in 10 years? What's going to happen to you when you're in your 50s? Are you saving for retirement, even?" You're saying, "Just look a little bit ahead and do put one foot in front of the other."

Let's take one more. This is going to be from another generation but I think talking about the 20s then and the 20s now. Todd in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Todd: Hey, Brian. How are you doing? It's Todd. I'm 64. I'm from New York. When I was in my 20s, I knew exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a record producer, and I got no support from my parents, and it was a very difficult transition in fact from college. I went to school in Montreal and then coming back, very, very difficult. I vowed when I was in my 20s that should I ever become a parent, which I am, that I would make sure that my kids would not go through what I went through.

Here's the paradox. I think that Dr. Jay will appreciate this. My kids, who both are working but are not sure what they want to do with their lives, I have a daughter who's almost 23, a son who's almost 27, and I am bending over backwards to give them space to offer a well-meaning perspective on a guy who's had 40 years plus since college and has gone through many iterations. I was a TV producer back with you, Brian, the old WNYC, then I went to Wall Street. I was a waiter at one point, and they don't want to hear anything about my life experience. They want the answers now.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, but that's classic, right?

Dr. Meg Jay: Oh, yes. That's a yes. [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: Now I know who you are. Talk to that, Dr. Jay.

Dr. Meg Jay: Yes. Well, one of the reasons I write books, the new one is The Twentysomething Treatment, previously, The Defining Decade, they're all for twentysomethings because I think often some of the wisdom that is right around there, they're not that interested in listening to. That is normal. That's separation. That's independence. Sometimes I think they can listen to advice from disinterested parties like myself who might have some of the same wisdom that you have, but maybe they'd be willing to hear it from someone else.

Brian Lehrer: Todd, good luck with yourself. Good luck with your kids. As we start to run out of time, thinking about Todd's call reflecting back on difficulties he had in his 20s, I think older people often look back on their 20s as the golden years, but you write, contrary to what popular culture and social media may suggest, your 20s are probably not going to be the best years of your life. A lot of people in their 50s and 60s and 70s and beyond might beg to differ.

Dr. Meg Jay: Well, I think that that might be a little bit of some hindsight distortion. I do tell twentysomethings, empirically speaking, your 20s are not going to be the best years of your life. They don't tend to be a mental health high point. They tend to be a mental health low point. That's normal because of all the growth curve and transitions and uncertainty, but that's actually really good news. I tell my twentysomething clients, "If your 20s turn out to be the best years of your life, something has gone terribly wrong."

You actually want life to get better and better as it goes. The data suggests that it does. I have confidence in twentysomethings that even though I do know it's really hard, that life should and probably will get better especially [crosstalk].

Brian Lehrer: Can you draw one other thing from your book for our listeners and do it in a minute? Because I'm really interested in this sentence, "Twentysomethings are over-medicated and over-diagnosed. About one in four young adults are taking a prescription mental health medication." Why do you say that they're over-medicated and over-diagnosed? Maybe that's what they need, and maybe you can throw in your definition of the term nocebo effect, which you have in there.

Dr. Meg Jay: That's a lot to do in a minute, Brian, but I'll try. Yes, medication is helpful and necessary for some folks, but it's not always the best medicine for everyone. Even young adults who are on medication who find it useful, everybody needs skills, not just pills. No mental health disorder is best treated with medication alone. A lot of the improvement that we see in young adult mental health comes through skill building, not just through what happens in a therapist's office or in a pill bottle.

The nocebo effect is the opposite of the placebo effect. It's the power of negative expectations. I think that can happen. You can have a fixed mindset around mental health when people get maybe a little too hung up on what their diagnoses are in their 20s. It's very easy to meet diagnostic criteria for a host of mental health disorders when you're in your 20s, but that doesn't mean that these disorders define you or are necessarily even going to be a part of who you are two or three or five years from now.

Brian Lehrer: The Twentysomething Treatment: A Revolutionary Remedy for an Uncertain Age, the latest book about people in their 20s by clinician Dr. Meg Jay, who's been very popular, as some of you know, in this field. Ted Talk viewed millions of times in her previous book that she was on for a decade and more ago. Thank you for coming back on the show and talking about some of these ideas and talking to some of our callers.

Dr. Meg Jay: Thank you, Brian. Always a pleasure.

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