[MUSIC]

Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. In the presidential race, we have Biden news on who's calling for him to leave the race now and who's not, at least one of those, I think, will surprise you, and we have Trump news. The Republican platform was approved yesterday with its top item using language widely considered racist. Item number one was seal the border and stop the migrant invasion. Now, it's widely considered racist to call it an invasion because we're talking overwhelmingly about people coming from very troubled countries to seek a better life for themselves but the anti-immigrant nativist hard right has taken to equating them with, let's say, the hostile army of a foreign country coming to take us over by calling their arrival in large numbers an invasion.

Item number two, continuing the vibe from the RNC platform, carry out the largest deportation operation in American history. Continuing on, item number eight implies surrendering Ukrainian territory to Vladimir Putin when it says euphemistically, "Prevent World War III, restore peace in Europe." You get the idea. It also makes more universally popular promises but with little mention of how to accomplish those hard things, and we'll talk about this in this segment, like end inflation and no cuts to Social Security and Medicare. It doesn't say how to close the impending gaps.

The Republicans are proposing no tax on tips. Interesting. Aiming at restaurants and other tip-based workers. We'll talk about the platform in more detail coming up. On the Democratic side of the presidential race, the divide continues over whether President Biden should quit the race. It may surprise you who some of the people are on each side. In the New York City congressional delegation, for example, NBC News reports that the dean of the delegation, Congressman Gerald Nadler, age 77, is among those saying Biden should end his campaign. Here's the iconic young progressive from Queens in the Bronx, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, going public with her opinion yesterday.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: I've spoken to the president over the weekend. I have spoken with him extensively. He made clear then, and he has made clear since, that he is in this race. The matter is closed. He had reiterated that this morning. He has reiterated that to the public. Joe Biden is our nominee. He is not leaving this race. He is in this race, and I support him.

Brian Lehrer: The matter is closed, and I support him. AOC. Surprised? Let's bring on Jeet Heer, national affairs correspondent for The Nation magazine. He also hosts a podcast with the cheery title The Time of Monsters, and writes a monthly column with the equally cheery title Morbid Symptoms. This article out now calling for Biden to step aside is called In a Democracy, No Leader is Indispensable. Jeet, thanks for coming on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Jeet Heer: Oh, always great to be on, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: The subhead of your article says, "Joe Biden flirts with the Samson Option." What's the Samson Option?

Jeet Heer: Well, the Samson Option is something I think Trump sort of pioneered in 2016, where he basically told a Republican party, unless they support him, unless they consolidate behind him, he's willing to bring the whole party down on top of himself. Mutually assured destruction. He had said if they go with Jeb, I will destroy this party. Instead of being a normal leader saying, consolidate, if I win, support me. If I lose, I'll support the other party. I'm willing to destroy everything unless I get my way.

Brian Lehrer: Let me jump in on that. That's not what he's saying, is it? This is not to support Biden staying in, per se,-

Jeet Heer: No. no. no.

Brian Lehrer: -but he's not saying I'm going to destroy the party. He's saying, "I believe I'm still the best candidate to defeat Trump and promote the party."

Jeet Heer: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, but what do you see? He's launched an attack on what he calls the party elites, basically saying that if he's not the nominee if there's a move to push him out, he'll be illegitimate. Basically, look, the only way that he-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Did he say illegitimate?

Jeet Heer: If he's saying that's like party elites and that he won the primaries Democratically and he's the choice of the people, that this was decided in a democracy, he's saying that he has Democratic legitimacy, I think. The implicit in his statement is that he would not support an alternative. The only way that the Democrats could win now with someone other than Biden is if he voluntarily gives it up and also says, "If it's Kamala Harris or anyone else, I will support the nominee and give them my full support." Biden's all his statements have had the implicit message that if they go with anyone other than him, then it's not going to be like Democratically-- it will not have legitimacy. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: I have to say, this is not what I expected to hear you saying this morning. Again, this is not to say Biden should stay in the race. There are many good reasons that he should consider leaving the race, but don't you think that if he does leave the race, if he does succumb to pressure from enough members of Congress or however it happens, that he's then going to support Kamala Harris or whoever the nominee turns out to be?

Jeet Heer: Well, no, because the only one who can decide whether he should leave the race is him. He is the presumptive nominee. He has the delegates. He's going in. It's his decision.

Brian Lehrer: It is his decision.

Jeet Heer: Yes. He says he has legitimacy. Implicit in that the people who are opposing him are these nebulous like elites and the media. He's very much indicated that those are the people that are going-- I believe Nancy Pelosi said it's the intelligentsia. It's like the New York Review of Books is the only source of worry.

Brian Lehrer: In a minute, I'm going to play the clip of Biden on Morning Joe on MSNBC yesterday where he really goes there. Before I do that-

Jeet Heer: No, no, no, no. I think it's important to understand what he is-- the implicit message here, which I think is a message that any other candidate will not have legitimacy. I think it's already the case now because he has sent this message to his supporters. About half the party, depending on polls, is very adamantly for him. It's either got to be Biden or it's he set up a scenario where it can't be anyone other than himself. No other candidate would have it. Because if he is made to withdraw, then it will look like, the language is maybe a bit exaggerated, but almost like a coup. That the intelligentsia, the elites have gotten rid of the Democratically elected leader.

Brian Lehrer: I'm not sure I accept the interpretation of coup, but listeners are already calling in. Half our lines are full. I want to make sure everybody who does not already have us on speed dial has an opportunity to participate with Jeet here, national affairs correspondent for The Nation. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692. One question for you, listeners. Are you changing your position on Joe Biden if you originally thought after the debate that he had to drop out?

One of the things that we'll discuss is that Joe Scarborough, host of Morning Joe on MSNBC, where Biden felt it was friendly enough territory to appear yesterday, Joe Scarborough, as an influential member of the media, seems to be changing his opinion from, "Oh, my God, that debate, Biden has to get out now," to, "Well, let's see." I'm going to read a Joe Scarborough tweet in a minute as we go. Listeners, are you changing your opinion one way or another? Weigh in or ask Jeet here from The Nation a question. 212-433-WNYC.

Also, interested listeners, if for you this is at all about ideology, at all about what Biden believes versus what some other candidate might believe or fight for more or less effectively, more or less with emphasis than Biden would, 212-433-9692, call or text. I raise the ideology question, Jeet, because I played the AOC clip. To my knowledge, neither Bernie Sanders nor any member of the squad has called on Biden to step aside. The calls are coming from more conventional Democrats, including older ones like Jerry Nadler, reportedly, and Senator Patty Murray of Washington. Is that counterintuitive to you at all by age or ideology or how do you understand who's on the bus and who's off the bus with Biden at this point? Are you surprised that that AOC clip in particular?

Jeet Heer: Not totally surprised, because I think from the beginning, it was clear that the people [00:09:58] of the most to lose with this are the centrist Democrats in swing states or in swing districts because their voters are the most likely to abandon ship on Biden and, therefore also, that would lower turnout for them. I think centrist Democrats are in big trouble. If you're a Democrat--

Brian Lehrer: Well, that makes total sense. How do you explain AOC? How do you explain silence by Bernie Sanders?

Jeet Heer: Well, there's two factors that work. One of which is that if the squad had come out from the beginning saying, "Let's get rid of Biden," that would've turned it into an ideological fight, and the centrist might have consolidated around him. I think initially there was a moment of silence and there was a very careful silence. I believe now not beyond the AOC, I think Ilhan Omar, has issued a strong statement in support of Biden, which again, might surprise many listeners.

Brian Lehrer: I didn't even know about that one. That's surprising even more considering the Middle East, right?

Jeet Heer: [laughs] That's right. Yes. Now, having said that, I think there's two things. One of which is that Biden has really doubled down on this strategy of defiance and made clear the logic that I just outlined before: that he's not going to go, he's the only one that can make this decision. Therefore, that really concentrates the minds of a lot of members of Congress and a lot of elected Democrats. Like, "Well, if Biden's going to stick it out, then do I really want to be in a fight with my president, the standard bearer of my party in a long election year?" Very few have the guts do that.

Beyond that, Biden has actually done a lot of phone calls reportedly over the weekend, has spent a lot of time getting people onside. In terms of leverage, if you want something from Biden, this is the moment to get it from. If you're in as a squad, generally are in very safe loose seats, then really you have nothing to lose with supporting Biden. In fact, you'll win loyalty points, not just now, but in the future. If AOC runs in the future for any higher office, a lot of partisan Democrats will remember she's the one that stood by the Democratic president in a crisis.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting.

Jeet Heer: It's the same logic. We've seen the Republican side, whenever there's any big scandal, which we had many with Trump, the logic is always that the partisans will reward you if you stick with the party leader. Whether it's the Access Hollywood tape or innumerable things that Trump has said and done. People always expect the Republicans to jump ship but the partisan logic of parties is to support it. I'll throw it a little political science here because I think what really explains this is this idea of the hollowed-out parties.

These are not the parties that people remember from movies of the past, like of the smoke field room where the insiders decide everything. The parties have become these kinds of media operations that get taken over by presidential candidates. The presidential candidate, whether it's Trump or Biden, then becomes a kind of dominant voice. It's in everyone's interest if you're a member of that party to align with that voice, or if you're not a member of the party, if you're the other party, to oppose that voice. There's a combination of partisanship and hollowed-out parties.

Brian Lehrer: I think that's true once they have a nominee for president in an election year like this but we talked on yesterday's show about the 1924 Democratic Convention, mostly lost to history. We brought it up because yesterday happened to be the exact 100th birthday of this radio station.

Jeet Heer: That was pont on.

Brian Lehrer: What was happening on day, the 1924 convention, just to tell listeners who don't know, who may not have been listening yesterday or otherwise don't know, in 1924, there were no primaries yet. It was exactly party insiders who chose the president. There was such dissension at the Democratic Convention that fights were breaking out in the streets of New York, and it took 103 ballots, 103 ballots, to choose a nominee. That was all by the delegates under the old system.

Now, and Biden makes this argument, Trump certainly makes this argument, we have the system of party primaries which were instituted decades ago to make it more of a popular process, a people's process. Biden's won all these primaries. Yes, nobody really stood up to challenge him, but nevertheless, that's because they didn't think they could win the primaries. Now, maybe the people should change their mind because now maybe they see and believe that Biden is incapable, but the people made this choice, or do you disagree?

Jeet Heer: Yes, I think that there was a democratization of the primaries in '68, but it was only partial. We all know about the unDemocratic elements of super delegates and many other things. The other kind of unDemocratic element was that once you have a party leader that's already in place like a president, people defer to him. The Democrats have deferred to Biden all along on issues of his age. They have turned the other way when he was starting to give fewer and fewer events, more controlled.

In the primary process itself, the primary, the DNC was a hollowed-out party that was deferring to the party standard bearer. They didn't allow debates. If Marianne Williamson or Dean Phillips wanted to debate Biden, they weren't given a chance. I think if Biden had been debating other-- there was a reason why there were no debates. In certain states, the primaries were shut down altogether, and all the votes were given by the state delegation to Biden. I think that Democratic legitimacy is a little bit suspect but that is the system that you have.

I think the legitimacy is in terms of the system. This is a system everyone agreed to. It's a system you have. I think it's a system that should be changed, but it's late to change it now. Biden is for better or worse, and I think it's worse. He's the leader of that, and the whole party is anchored by him. He is the going to be the anchor that's going to drag this party, I think, down into the bottom of the ocean, but they tie themselves to that anchor.

Brian Lehrer: In contrast to AOC and in support of your analysis of who's coming out calling for him to get out of the race, MSNBC had a slide with the pictures of the one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine members of Congress. They are Mike Quigley, Seth Molton, Grijalva, Lloyd Doggett, let's see, Angie Craig, Adam Smith, Nadler, Mark Decano, and Joe Morelle, mostly White men, mostly older. Then Patty Murray's been in the news, the senator from Washington State, and she hasn't said anything.

Actually, most of those members of Congress, including Nadler, have not spoken to microphones. These are reports about most of them. Patty Murray did release a written statement that says, "At this critical time for our country, president Biden must seriously consider the best way to preserve his incredible legacy and secure it for the future." Some of them are using that kind of euphemism. She's saying, "Must seriously consider," or if not euphemism, hedging, "must seriously consider the best way." How do you hear it?

Jeet Heer: Well, yes, I hear it as like it is deference to the party leader, which is what you have, because it's only Biden can make this decision for better or worse. I mean, I might prefer that we have the smoke-filled rooms-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: It's because he won the committed delegates who are obligated unless he steps aside to vote for him at the convention, right?

Jeet Heer: Not just he won the committed delegates, but the whole primary. No other serious candidate stepped out to primary him. They didn't because everyone knows if you primary a president, you're going to put the party at risk and you're going to put your own political future at risk. The party has already consolidated behind Biden. They know it's his decision and all the language-- I confess, I myself have written along this line. The only language that you can use is one of deference to say, "Joe, you're a great guy. Think of your legacy, think of the future of the party."

You're a courtier in the court of the king, but it's the king's decision. Even though Murray is clearly indicating concern as she should, I think that Democrats are going to be in big trouble if Biden continues along this path, but the only language you can use is one of deference to the leader, and Biden is the leader. Biden not only is the leader. He's done actually a pretty good job of consolidating support of like closing up the dam.

The dam was breaking. Water was coming out of the dam but they have done a pretty good job of pushing back, sealing up, calling the members of Congress, calling AOC, consolidating support. I know things can always change. It's a fluid situation, but from what it looks like now, God help us. Joe Biden is the Democratic Party nominee and he's what stands between us and a second Trump presidency.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we're going to get to you in a minute, I promise, but [laughs] there's a lot to discuss with Jeet Heer from The Nation with his take. You obviously don't like the power dynamics in the party, you're making that clear, in both parties, that's the way things are structured now and the way Biden is using that power. I think the bottom line question for Democrats considering this issue, and I want to know your take is, is he the best person to defeat Trump, or is somebody else, Kamala Harris or somebody chosen through an open process the best person to defeat Trump? Is that the bottom line question for you? Do you have an answer for yourself?

Jeet Heer: Yes, it's the bottom line question. It's a hard question to know, to definitively answer. Although I think polls are starting to show Kamala Harris would do better, but she would only do better if she has Joe Biden support. The only way Kamala Harris can win is if Joe Biden voluntarily steps down and gives his wholehearted support to her, because when parties are divided, they don't win. You mentioned 1924, right?

Brian Lehrer: Right.

Jeet Heer: The 1924 convention, you had Klansmen and Catholics, Irish Catholics.

Brian Lehrer: That's right.

Jeet Heer: Like fighting in the streets of New York, divided party and then Calvin Coolidge wins a landslide. '68, Democrats fighting in the streets of Chicago. Nixon wins.1980, Kennedy versus Carter. A divided party cannot win. You have to have a unified party, and, unfortunately, the party is unified around Biden. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Agree with that history. I guess the most surprising thing for me that you are saying in this conversation is that if Biden does step aside, he's not going to give his full-throated, wholehearted support to whoever the nominee is. That's the part I'm having trouble with.

Jeet Heer: No, no, no. Well, okay. If Biden came to a genuine-- he said the Lord Almighty can convince him. He came to Jesus moment where he realized he can't do it. I think he would, he is a party man. He would do it, but that's not who Biden is right Now. The Biden of right now thinks he's the best person and that he's not willing to give a wholehearted support to anyone else because he thinks he's the one that can do it. One notices in all his speeches, like in that George Stephanopoulos interview, did you hear Kamala Harris' name?

Did you hear him mention like, "I think I'm running because I'm a great president and I have a great vice president who can take over"? Is he actually saying like, "We have a Plan B of Harris"? No, he has actually repeatedly emphasized that he is the one who could do it. He he's the only one that can keep NATO together. He's the only one that can fend off China. He said that in the Stephanopoulos interview, like, "Who else is going to do it except me?" Right now, Joe Biden-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: I agree with you, there was a whiff of that in that interview, especially on foreign affairs.

Jeet Heer: Yes. Do you think that Joe Biden that we have now barring us change of his thinking, like right now is willing to give his heart to another candidate? I can't say that because he himself, he genuinely, sincerely believes that he is the man of the moment. That he's the only one that could have defeated Trump in 2020, and he's the the only one that can meet the moment. Yes.

Brian Lehrer: I disagree with that part, but we're both just speculating, so we're going to move on.

Jeet Heer: No, no, no, but I want to ask you, what do you think it would take for Joe Biden to wholeheartedly give support to Kamala Harris or in another candidate? What would he have to-- It would require a fundamental change in his thinking, right?

Brian Lehrer: Well, it's just that if he does actually step aside, I think that's the hard part. If he were to actually step aside, then really despising Trump really think that thinking that Trump is a danger, not just in his policies, but to democracy and to the world, and being a party man his whole life, as you were describing and as you're describe in your article, I think if he were to come to the decision and actually step aside, then yes, he would give his wholehearted support to the new Democratic nominee, but it's just speculation.

Jeet Heer: Yes, but it's a chicken-and-egg question, right? Because if he actually did think that there was another candidate that could do a better job of defeating Trump, then he would be more inclined to step aside. I think that we just have to fundamentally-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Like a lot of losers of Democratic processes, he could believe that he's the best person, but accept reality and still support his party, but, all right, we'll see.

Jeet Heer: Yes, but he's already won the process. He has the delegates. He's the one who has to make the decision. You see the conundrum, right?

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Let me take a break that we have to take then we'll continue with Jeet Heer from The Nation. We're going to play that clip that I mentioned of Joe Biden on Morning Joe on MSNBC yesterday, pick it up from there. We are also going to get to the Republican platform voted on and announced yesterday in advance of next week's Republican convention and some eye-opening things in there. Stay with us. Brian Lehrer on WNYC.

[MUSIC - Marden Hill: Hijack]

Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we talk about presidential politics with Jeet Heer, national affairs correspondent for The Nation magazine. He's got his article calling for Biden to step aside called, In a Democracy, No Leader Is Indispensable. I want to play the clip of Biden that you refer to before from Joe Scarborough's Morning Joe yesterday on MSNBC. I guess, I don't know if you hear it differently, it seemed to me that he was aiming some of his fire at the left without using that word by hitting his doubters as elites.

I have a Joe Scarborough tweet here that says, "Joe Biden can now say he's having to fight: media, elites, billionaire donors, Washington politicians, Hollywood moguls, and MAGA extremists." Not everybody on that list is from the left to be sure, certainly not billionaire donors. You refer to his appearance on MSNBC's Morning Joe, in your article, I'm going to let listeners hear a long soundbite from that. This is a minute and 40 seconds of Biden, in fairness, sounding a lot different than he did in the debate.

Joe Biden: Look, Joe, let's get something clear about '20 and '24. Not only were they wrong, I said they were wrong beforehand. I said we were going to win and how we were going to win. I didn't pretend about it. It wasn't like, oh my God, I was surprised." I was not surprised. I predicted it, and I knew what we were doing, number one. Number two, you may remember I was one of the few people out there publicly saying before the 2022 election, there will be no red way.

There will be no red way, because I've been all over the country. I didn't believe it at all. Then in 2023, the key elections, I went into those races, not every one of them, but a lot of them. I said we were going to win. Look, we won those. Joe, it wasn't just that it didn't happen, I was predicting beforehand it would not happen because I've got a pretty good political instinct and eye. Here's the deal: it's not going to happen here this time around.

The American public is not going to move away from me as an average voter. Again, I'm here for two reasons, pal. One, to rebuild the economy for hard work, and middle-class people give everybody a shot. That's a straight shot. Everybody gets a fair chance, number one. Number two, remember all us talk about how I don't have the Black support. Come on, give me a break, come with me, watch, watch. I'm getting so frustrated by the elites. Now, I'm not talking about you guys, but about the elites in the party who they know so much more, but any of these guys don't think I should run against me. Go ahead, announce the president. Challenge me at the convention.

Brian Lehrer: Joe Biden on Morning Joe, MSNBC yesterday, again, sounding a lot different than he did in the debate. I wonder how you hear that, Jeet, and whether you think that changes your mind, or as a matter of political analysis is changing anybody else's mind out there. It seems like Joe Scarborough's mind as just one influential MSNBC host is changing. Scarborough himself, and very influential, seems to have changed from "Joe's got to go" the morning after the debate to "wait and see how he looks" this week. How do you hear all that and also the part at the end of that clip where Biden is going explicitly after elites?

Jeet Heer: Sure. I mean, I think it's like good politics that he's doing. This is a way of consolidating his support and as we were talking about presenting himself, "I am the Democratically elected nominee, and any attempt to push me out is dubious and it's coming from dubious sources." Then, if you think about it, this is like people who politicians of all stripes have run against-- it's easy to run against elites. I would say Joe Biden having been in the Senate since 1972, longer than the average American has been alive, is probably a member of the elite, but that's typical in politics, and it has worked. I do actually think the tide has turned. Last week I think more and more people were coming out against them within the party.

The people of real sway here are the elected Democrats, and if enough came out, his position would be very untenable, but I think he is staunch that he has actually consolidated support among congressional Democrats. Even the ones who are critical of him like Murray are coaching their criticism in very tentative deferential terms. I think politically, this has worked. This new defiant Joe Biden is going to be able to-- I think he has a very good chance of staying on his nominee.

Whether that's the best for the party or the country, I actually think there's a factual issue that he's getting older, and we're seeing a lot of reporting of traveling to Europe and not being able to meet foreign leaders because of his sleep schedule. Is Joe Biden the best person to be president? I think Kamala Harris could do everything he does but more just because he's younger. It's Biden's decision, and the only one who can challenge him is within the party, and he's consolidated. I think he's doing a good job of consolidating that support.

Brian Lehrer: How do you understand the fact that apparently, the Congressional Black Caucus is lining up behind Biden? Certainly, the leader of the Congressional Black Caucus the current chair of that in Congress and other Black Democrats. Not 100%, but it seems like, and he referred to it in the clip there, the Black elected officials seem to by and large be lining up behind Joe Biden.

Jeet Heer: Well, I think Biden's strength as a politician is that he's always been very good at bringing people into his coalition, and he's a very good transactional politician. He won in 2020 because of the deals he made with Clyburn in South Carolina, and he's kept to those deals. He promised a Black female vice presidential pick, he gave that. He promised more Black justices, including on the Supreme Court, and he's delivered on that.

I think that Black congressional leaders, and I think this applies also to the squad as well, know that Joe Biden actually as a transactional politician. If he's talking to you and he says, "Give me your support and I'll give you X, Y, and Z," he will deliver on X, Y, and Z. Again, they are not generally in the seats in the swing districts in the swing states. For them, this is a very easy thing. If you can get the leader of the party, the president to be like who will deliver on his promises to give you stuff, why not

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, are you changing in the period of time between the debate and now? Peter in St. Petersburg, Florida, not Russia, I think is changing from one position to another. Peter, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Peter: Oh, thank you for taking my call. Oh, by the way, for full disclosure I would vote for a sleepwalking Biden presidency, to tell you the truth, anything. What I was going to say was that--

Brian Lehrer: You mean over Trump, right?

Peter: Right. Other than Trump, anything, sleepwalking Biden would be better. Listen, what I've noticed is that Biden is starting to resemble Trump in his resistance to taking-- well he was going to-- they said would he take a cognitive test? What he should have said, in my opinion is, he'd say, "Yes, I'll take a cognitive test and IQ test on live TV." You know what I mean? Instead, he's like, "I don't need one." I'm like, "Oh, that sounds like the other guy."

Brian Lehrer: Well, Peter for you, he's basically said going on live TV is a cognitive test when he's going back and forth with George Stephanopoulos, or Joe Scarborough or et cetera. Do you not accept that?

Peter: No, no, I need him to be really frank and make a clean distinction between himself and the guy on the other side there.

Brian Lehrer: Who could also take a cognitive test, as many democrats are saying. Amanada in Brooklyn with a very different opinion. Amanada, you are on WNYC. We appreciate you calling in.

Amanada: Hi, Brian. Thank you for taking my call. I honestly I feel like the conversation around Joe Biden's age is really reductive and distracting. I think the focus should be on shoring up the base, making sure people are getting out to vote, and get defeating Trump. Yes, he's old, and that has been very apparent, especially from the debate, but I'm just if we're focusing so much on this, spending so much energy and time on it, I feel like it's just it's really different. It's giving [inaudible 00:35:39] for people. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Do you think it's not--

Amanada: Many people who are not excited-- Oh sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I--

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead. No, no, finish and I apologize for interrupting you. Go ahead and finish that thought.

Amanada: No, I was going to say that I just know so many people who feel so just disenchanted with the idea of going to the polls and voting. When you think about the Supreme Court striking down Chevron and all of the things, the ramifications and effects of the Trump presidency that we're still doing with today, and the fact that another four years of that is a possibility looming. I think that there's a valid conversation to have about his age, but to have it right now, we're four months from the election, the possibility of him stepping down and we getting another candidate is not really likely if you think about it, logistically and realistically. Let's just support the candidate.

Brian Lehrer: Let me ask you one follow-up question. The reason that, and we're not generating this, the party is having it, right? There's all this process going on in the Democratic leadership and the Democratic rank and file within Congress and et cetera. After the debate, there was more doubt about whether he could defeat Trump, and whether the best way to focus on achieving that goal was to shift horses at this point even in midstream in that analogy. That's why they're even considering the question. If you think they should move on, then it must mean that you think that is the best bet. Biden still is the best bet regardless of new doubts, the people who may stay home from the polls, as you express the concern about, might be even more likely to, and help Trump in that way.

Amanada: I just think that realistically, four months out from November, actually less than four months because it's November 4th, to stand up another candidate-- of course, because it's not just New York. I know you're right in that, it's the Democratic party across the country. To stand up another candidate feels really unrealistic. If I'm being frank, Joe Biden is not my favorite person. I have a lot of issues with the way that he has handled his presidency, but the other side of that is Donald Trump.

Again, when I think about all of the ways in which that his presidency is affecting my life, the life of people I care about, the life of people I don't even know that I just see and read the news, that it feels like a no-brainer. Then hopefully, what is the next election after this, in the next four years, we can move on to a new generation of new Democratic candidates that we are excited to vote for, that we want to see in office, and we believe it. I think it's to some degree in between the trash and between hell, and I'd rather be in the trash.

Brian Lehrer: Amanada, thank you very much for your call. Appreciate it, keep calling us. Jeet, let's turn the page. My guest is Jeet Heer, national affairs correspondent for The Nation. Have you looked at the Republican party platform that they voted on yesterday in advance of the Republican convention next week? What's your headline?

Jeet Heer: Well, it's interesting because like in 2020, I don't think they had a platform. They basically said Trump is our nominee and what Trumps want is our platform. In '22, I thought, wow, that was a symbol of how Trumpized the party is. Actually, I think they've done it better, which is that they have an entire platform now that is written in Trump's voice, that has not just in the diction but even in the capitalization, in the punctuation. I think you read some of it in the previous segment, but it is an absolutely Trumpian document of moving beyond the conservative ideology of the Reagan-Bush eras and having the strident language. Like "carrying out the largest deportation operation in American history," all caps, "seal the border, stop the migrant invasion."

Also, having some of Trump's opportunism or ability to see that they're like certain issues, the Republicans aren't unpopular, so you soften that a little bit, which I think is very interesting that he's doing that on abortion. Whether it convinces anyone or wins anyone over, I don't know. I think the abortion is the key litmus test. Will people actually believe this party platform or will they actually look at what Republican lawmakers are doing in red states all across America? In some ways, I think the ability of this Trumpian rhetoric to flu people maybe has lessened over time.

Brian Lehrer: It's interesting on the abortion question where the only thing that they explicitly oppose this time in the platform is late-term abortion. That's so much weaker if you're an anti-abortion person than Republican party platforms in the past. Then it explicitly says that they support contraception. It's, I guess, political acknowledgment of reality in that respect. I hear what you're saying and I think you're right to raise the question, who believes that that would be the follow through if Republicans actually take power in Congress and Trump is the president?

Jeet Heer: It's interesting because I think that in the past, Republican platforms were very extreme. I think there were ones that basically called for an end to all abortion and to have fetal life recognized in the Constitution. At that point, a lot of people, moderate Republicans, ignored their platform and said, "We know they're not really going to do that."

I think post-Dobbs, the opposite is true.

You can have a platform or a politician saying, "We support IVF, we support birth control," but a lot of moderates are going to look at what actual rightwing movements are doing and rightwing politicians are doing in red states and where rightwing judges that were appointed by Trump are doing, and they're going to think like, "We don't believe what they're saying when they're saying they're moderate on this issue. We're looking at what they're doing."

Brian Lehrer: When you talk about Trumpian language and presentation, the beginning of the platform is 20 bullet points in all caps. I mentioned that the number one item is seal the border, item number two, continuing that vibe, carry out the largest deportation operation in American history. I mentioned item number eight, which to me implies surrendering Ukraine or at least some Ukrainian territory to Vladimir Putin when it says, "Prevent World War III, restore peace in Europe." Pieces of euphemism there. It sounds like you agree.

I want to get your take also on the more maybe universally popular promises but with little mention of how to accomplish those hard things that are in here. One of them is just end inflation and another one is no cuts to Social Security and Medicare. We know that everybody wants to end inflation but they don't really say how, except to produce a lot of energy and not have any climate policies. Social Security and Medicare funding, something's going to have to be done. Whether that's raising taxes for Medicare and Social Security in higher income earners, whether that's cutting benefits, whatever it is, something has to be done, and they don't list anything.

Jeet Heer: No. Absolutely not. I think that if you had a strong Democratic party candidate, they could point out that other things that Trump does want, he wants to be able to extend the tax cuts that he had in 2017, which are going to be coming up in 2025, will make it very difficult to preserve Social Security and Medicare. [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Biden did get at least that much out in the debate.

Jeet Heer: Yes, he did. He did say that. [crosstalk].

Brian Lehrer: He said raise the income threshold on which you are taxed for Social Security and Medicare.

Jeet Heer: Yes. How many listeners were able to understand his point? I'm not sure about. On the inflation issue, again, I think if you had a stronger Democratic candidate, they could be saying the stuff Elizabeth Warren's been saying like going after corporate greed and saying that there's been a lot of price gouging and having a concrete proposal. You could counter that. That is stuff that Biden has intermittently said off and on, but I think a lot of the stuff, the more popular stuff that Trump is offering can be countered. I think Biden, to be given credit, as you said in the debate, he did offer some counterarguments. My real worry is, Biden, I think his greatest fans would acknowledge, he is having trouble getting his ideas out there. [laughs] Yes.

Brian Lehrer: It's true that I understood that proposal because I already knew what it was, and I'm not sure that people who were not engaged could understand the way he articulated it during the debate. One more from the Republican platform.

Jeet Heer: Especially when he also said that, "I am the one that beat Medicare," right?

Brian Lehrer: Oh yes. Oh, right. That was his worst moment of the debate. He was trying to talk about, I guess--

Jeet Heer: I beat COVID.

Brian Lehrer: I'd beat what? Oh, COVID. Oh, I thought he was trying talk about getting Medicare prescription drugs.

Jeet Heer: Oh, maybe. Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Negotiation with the pharmaceutical companies on price.

Jeet Heer: It's very hard to figure out sometimes because he mixes up words. I don't know if this is knowable or not. I noticed he previously mentioned COVID and so I thought what he was trying to say is "I'm the one that beat COVID." Your interpretation could be right as well. We need a great literary critic, an F. R. Leavis or a William Empson to decipher that.

Brian Lehrer: [laughs] One more. It is a change from Republican platforms of the past, even just to say there would be no cuts to Social Security and Medicare. That's a change. It's reminiscent to me of France where the far right trying to take power has joined the left in saying the retirement age over there should not be raised. It's not a hyper-capitalist position as we would normally associate with the right. This last thing, the Republicans are proposing no tax on tips in the platform, which I guess aims at restaurant and other tip-based workers. Maybe they're trying to woo Latino workers in particular. Tell me if you think it's aimed at them very represented in the hospitality industry. What do you make of that as a campaign promise?

Jeet Heer: I think that is it. I think that there's some indication from comments that were made by unions in Nevada and elsewhere. That did perk up people's ears as a real offer. In policy terms, I think the concern is that this would encourage bosses to give lower wages. I'd be curious to know, but politically, I think it can excite people that don't normally vote for the Republican party. I think Trump is actually quite good at that. On the Medicare and Social Security, in 2016, that's one of the big reasons why I think he's able to beat out traditional Republicans like Jeb Bush and Ted Cruz because he understood that the white working-class voters who are becoming more Republican are not that interested in that Herbert Hoover, "Let's cut back popular entitlement programs."

Brian Lehrer: Jeet Heer, national affairs correspondent for The Nation, his latest article about Biden primarily, In a Democracy, No Leader Is Indispensable. Thank you, Jeet.

Jeet Heer: Oh, it's great to be on.

 

Copyright © 2024 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.