Title: A Queer Saint

Kousha Navidar: It's the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Kousha Navidar sitting in the seat for Brian today while he's on vacation. You may have heard the news that the Catholic Church is set to name its first millennial saint. Well, my next guest asks, when will it name a queer one? We'll spend some time now at the intersection of spirituality, sainthood, and the LGBTQ+ community and we'll hear a case for queer saints. One name you should know as we head into this conversation is Father Mychal Judge.

Father Mychal, a gay man, was chaplain to the New York City Fire Department and the first recorded casualty of the September 11 attacks. For more now, I'm joined by Antonio Pagliarulo, writer and author of The Evil Eye: The History, Mystery & Magic of the Quiet Curse. Pagliarulo, who is currently working on another book about queer saints, recently published an essay on out.com under the headline, 'The Catholic Church named a millennial saint'. When is it going to name a queer one? Antonio, welcome to WNYC.

Antonio Pagliarulo: Thank you, Kousha. It's a pleasure to be here.

Kousha Navidar: A pleasure to have you. Listeners, we want to invite you to call in and tell us your queer saints, especially if you identify as both LGBTQ+ and Catholic. We're at 212-433-9692. Antonio, let's get into your spiritual background a little bit. You allude to growing up with a blend of folk magic and Catholicism. How unique was that spiritual background? Did it contribute to your interest in recognizing queer saints?

Antonio Pagliarulo: Of course, because, well, saints in general were a part of my upbringing. I grew up in-- I'm the child of Italian immigrants. We grew up in a two family house. My grandparents lived downstairs, and they practiced what today we would consider, I suppose, folk magic, although they were devout Catholics. This is the stuff that I wrote about in my previous book about the evil eye and certain herbal remedies and things like that. Saint magic was a great part of that. Growing up, I always had a great affinity with saints.

Then growing up as a young man, realizing I was gay, I looked for examples of saints who I could pray to, who I could reach out to in my moments of spiritual need and my need for spiritual nourishment. That's what really led me on this, what's probably been a lifelong path about the queer saints and why the church itself has not recognized them. Also, then the need for the queer community to claim and celebrate our own queer saints as well. It's this two sided mission that I've gone through for many, many years.

Kousha Navidar: The impetus, the news hook for your story, if it's fair to say that, is that the catholic church is set to that canonize a millennial saint, Carlo Acutis. He's long been called the patron saint of the Internet. Can you give us a little background about him?

Antonio Pagliarulo: Well, what I know about Carlo, he was very young when he passed on and well deserved, being the patron saint of millennials and things like this. He had a tremendous love for the church, for the Eucharist and things like this. Anyone who spoke to him or spoke of him will tell you that he just had that zeal. He had that passion for it. The circumstances leading up directly to his canonization, regarding the miracles, I'm not as familiar with, but it's been a very, very important part of sainthood and how people have related to saint.

When we look back on it, saints just recently, have made a huge, not that they've ever gone away, but there's been this comeback in terms of-- even Hollywood, we had the Padre Pio pick in 2002. In 2024, we had Cabrini render, the life of Frances Cabrini. We know that still today, tens of thousands across the us view relics all the time. St. Jude was recently-- had his relics come through. A very well deserved, of course, canonization for Carlo Acutis. It's just something that led me to say, "Okay, that's wonderful and it's necessary and it's great, but what about this other sect of people? What about the queer population?"

Kousha Navidar: Yes, you write, "I make silent communion with a saint you've likely never heard of because the catholic church has not yet taken up his cause," and for you, that saint is Father Mychal judge. Can you tell us more about his life, why he holds such significance for you, the argument that you're making?

Antonio Pagliarulo: Father Mychal Judge was a native New Yorker. He was born in Brooklyn, a Franciscan. Most people know him from September 11. He was the first reported victim of September 11. Many people know the iconic picture now of him, his body being pulled from the rubble by five men being carried. It's sometimes called the modern Pieta, sort of. Before that, to many people, he was already a saint because he ministered so much to people where he was a friar on West 31st street at the church of St. Francis of Assisi.

Anyone who walked up and down the street would tell you, "Maybe I never met him directly, but he always blessed me, or he always waved to me." Early, early on during the AIDS crisis, he was ministering to AIDS patients. He was himself a gay man. He was himself a recovering alcoholic, and he turned no one away. He spoke to everyone. He loved everyone, and he was always there to extend a hand. He was very much a part of the gay community itself early on when it was so terribly ostracized by the catholic church.

He marched in the first St. Patrick's Day gay parade when in Queens when it was said, no, nobody, Gays can't do that. He did, in his friar, in his robe and all that. He was sure to be photographed doing that. He was, to me, a trailblazer of compassion, and that's what he was. He has touched the lives of countless people, and not only from 9/11, but going back to it. As a gay man, that's very important to me because I myself have always had an affinity with him for those various reasons. I have prayed to him many, many times and invoked him and and asked him to intercede for me.

I think it's very, very important that we recognize that someone like Father Mychal existed and did the work of a saint here on earth. Why not make that real, now that he's on the other side?

Kousha Navidar: At least from the texts we're getting, it sounds like you're not alone. We have one text here that says, "Obvious first gay saint would be Father Mychal Judge." That came up actually just at the beginning of the segment. That listener is definitely on the same wavelength as what you're saying. Listeners, especially our LGBTQ+ and catholic listeners, we invite you to call in and tell us your queer saints. Give us a call at 212-433-9692. Who are the queer people and/or queer icons that you call on for spiritual nourishment and help, in the words of my guest, Antonio Pagliarulo.

Antonio, I'm wondering, does the church recognize Father Mychal as being gay?

Antonio Pagliarulo: The church itself, it's been said that the church itself has not taken a position on it. Some say no. Others say they've not taken a position. Some say his order has not taken a position or taken up his cause for canonization. I can't imagine why. The Franciscan order is wonderful and amazing, and they've done so much tremendous work. No, they have not as of yet, made his case cause for canonization as of yet. I'm not the first person, nor you, who should recognize that. When the article that I wrote on Out came, was published, I got many, many emails and many, many people who wrote to me and said, "Hey, did you forget? When is this happening? You put as if it's already happening.

I had to [unintelligible 00:08:46] it's not, as far as I know. The church has not taken up this cause, as important and as valid as it is, and as plainly evident as it is. This was a person who lived his life, as many would say, as a saint here on earth. He just happened to be gay, and he otherwise ministered to every single class of people, not only from the LGBTQIA+ community, but to, as I said earlier, alcoholics and poor people. People said he walked around with dollar bills in his pocket just to give to the homeless. Going back to his AIDS ministry, going back to the morning of September 11, when supposedly he was told to exit the tower because that was the command. He said, it's reported that his last words were, "My work here is not done."

Kousha Navidar: You mentioned his participation with supporting alcoholics. We have another text here that says, "Please, emphasize how active Mychal Judge was in Alcoholics Anonymous. He helped many people there. We're painting a picture of a person who was very active in supporting other people from, like you said, all walks of life in all the ways that he could. I'm wondering now, what would it take to grant Father Mychal Judge sainthood? What would that process look like? What would it take?

Antonio Pagliarulo: What would the process look like? I think it starts with honoring him yourself first. First taking the moment to say, "For me, he's a patron saint of gay men. He's a patron saint of the LGBTQIA community, or he's a patron saint of alcoholics. He's the patron saint of New York City. Whatever it is, it starts with, I believe, honoring him in our hearts, but then going to his local order, writing to his local order, writing to the bishops, writing to the church, and saying voices need to be heard here. You're hearing millennial voices, aren't you? Why not the voices of queer people?

We have so many examples of that. In my research, I can tell you that one of the things that I have found is that queer saints in general, those that I have identified in those, whether they were with catholic identities or newer ones, they are all trailblazers of compassion. This is what it means to be a saint. For people to want Father Mychal to be recognized by the church, it means being active. It means taking up the cause that themselves, because that's the way the church itself will listen, or the people who need to hear it will hear it.

Kousha Navidar: You write, "At a time when old hatred seem far from fading, it's time to claim our queer saints. Father Mychal should be the first, but with any luck, he will not be the last." Those are your words, and we'll end with your words. That'll have to be the last word for today. My guest was Antonio Pagliarulo, a writer and author of The Evil Eye: The History, Mystery & Magic of the Quiet Curse. His recent essay is on out.com under the headline, 'The catholic church named a millennial saint. When is it going to name a queer one? Antonio, thank you so much.

Antonio Pagliarulo: Thank you. It's my honor to be here. Thank you.

Kousha Navidar: All right, that's our show for today. Thanks to the team at the Brian Lehrer Show, Lisa Allison, Mary Croke, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, and Esperanza Rosenbaum. With help today from Elizabeth Shwe. Zach Gottehrer-Cohen handles our daily politics podcast. Interns Sasha Lyndon Cohen and Lucinda [unintelligible 00:12:28]. Juliana Fonda and Milton Ruiz at the audio controls. I'm Kousha Navidar. This is the Brian Lehrer Show. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for All Of iIt. Have a great day, everyone.

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