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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now WNYC's education reporter Jessica Gould, who's been doing some really interesting stories lately, like on backlash over a new way of teaching math and why Trump's mass deportation plan is now an obstacle to one of Governor Hochul's education priorities in New York State, the in-school cellphone ban. Jess, thanks for what you do every day, and welcome back to the show.

Jessica Gould: Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: For people who haven't heard of this newest version of new math called illustrative math, how does it differ from conventional math?

Jessica Gould: I think it's about the sequence and the balance. This way of doing math, according to the curriculum developer who I spoke to, they want kids to work out problems, struggle with it a little bit, a productive struggle. Then the teachers they work out the problems, and then the teachers instruct them with how to do it after they've given it a try. I think the controversy is whether the balance between the struggle and the explicit teaching is the right balance. Some of the teachers I spoke to felt like it's not the right balance and also that it maybe is backwards.

This is the innovative thing about it, is this emphasis on discovery at the beginning, which the curriculum developer talks about as making the process of math and the lessons stickier and more durable with kids as they are working it out themselves. It can also be really frustrating. If it causes kids to shut down, then the instruction that comes afterwards isn't as meaningful. That's what I'm hearing. The other thing is that this is part of a move towards more standardization in curriculum across the city. While illustrative math is used in various grades and at various schools across the city for some elementary, some middle school, some high school, for the first time this year, the city required it for Algebra 1.

That's part of an ongoing emphasis under the Adams administration to standardize curricula for quality control. What I'm hearing from teachers is that they are being asked to follow a script, and the script moves too fast. Kids fall behind, they get even more frustrated. There's not an opportunity to address the gaps, and there are some other criticisms as well.

Brian Lehrer: Now, we're going to spend a few more minutes on this and then talk about what may seem like two unrelated things, but how Trump's immigration policies might affect Governor Hochul's desire to have a statewide cellphone ban in schools, which we talked about separately from anything having to do with Trump over the last few months. Before we get off the math curriculum issue, if we happen to have any math teachers on your prep period or something with a thumbs up or thumbs down on this new illustrative math, we can take one or two of you. 212-433-WNYC.

Who knows if we have any math teachers listening right now, but if you're out there and you have an opinion about this, if you have actual experience with it, or you could even be a retired math teacher who's looking in saying, "They're doing that?" Or, "Oh, I'm glad they're doing that," give us a thumbs up or thumbs down. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692. Yes, Jess, you mentioned the Adams administration made the illustrative math approach mandatory this school year for Algebra 1. I know listeners just hearing the words Algebra 1, some of you are having PTSD from middle school, but be strong, you can handle it.

I pulled an Algebra 1 example from their illustrative math website. I'm going to give it. This came up in a Google search. Math phobes, bear with me on this. Goes like this. A bakery is selling cupcakes for $2 each and cookies for $1 each. If you have $10 to spend, write an equation to represent the number of cupcakes and cookies you can buy. Then find two possible combinations of cupcakes and cookies that would cost exactly $10. Jess, is that illustrative math? Because they're asking the students not just to work with an equation for the cookies and cupcakes budget, but to create an equation and multiple possible answers for how many cupcake and cookie combinations they could buy for $10.

Jessica Gould: Yes, I think that that student agency is part of it. Then also my understanding is when they give that problem is really the key. Do they give it as an opening exercise or later?

Brian Lehrer: You have to learn to write equations at some point in algebra. It's the timing and the sequence. Like, does this spur creativity and thinking or does this just seem like, "Oh-oh, this topic is over my head?"

Jessica Gould: Right, and freak kids out so that they shut down. I've heard from teachers who-- on either side. I've heard from teachers who say the kids are frustrated and especially the multilingual learners, English language learners, and students with disabilities are having particular trouble. Then I've heard from some who really like it. I think that the issue here, it actually intersects with some of the issues with the literacy curriculum. These kids have not benefited from the literacy overhaul. Whether people think the literacy overhaul that the schools are doing is a benefit is another debate.

These are older kids. Some of the teachers I talked to said these word problems are challenging for kids because they don't have the mastery over the language yet. Now, what you just read seemed pretty simple and straightforward, but I've heard that some of these problems can be really text-heavy.

Brian Lehrer: You brought up the reading curriculum and it seems like an analogy, but I don't know if it's too simple an analogy. This idea that the illustrative math curriculum can create a sense of discovery in students as they try to figure out math problems. I'm not opposing the curriculum. I think it's okay to try new approaches to things that kids hate. We're just reporting on who likes it, who doesn't. Doesn't it sound like the widely discredited reading curriculum that they just threw out and went back to teaching phonics? Wasn't it a similar language of creating more open-ended discovery rather than just teaching the rules?

Jessica Gould: It certainly struck me that way. I think that's why the balance issue and potentially the sequencing issue comes into play. I know that with the teachers' college curriculum and some of the more balanced literacy approaches, kids were encouraged to page through books before they-- for a long time in kindergarten, before they had the phonics to actually decode books and read them. There's a concern that this is similar in that they don't have the tools yet to puzzle through the problems that they're giving at the top of a class, and then that can turn kids off.

On the other hand, I've heard some criticism of the new literacy curriculum as well, that it's so scripted, so standardized, and a lot of a teacher talking at kids and you lose kids that way instead of having them be more engaged in the learning. I think that this illustrative math tries to engage kids by having them be active and work in groups, socially, together.

Brian Lehrer: Guess what we've got on the line? A math teacher, Audra in Mercer County, you're on WNYC. Hi, Audra.

Audra: Hi, Brian. I have some experience--

Brian Lehrer: You have experience. Go ahead.

Audra: Yes, exactly. Teaching IM algebra to eighth graders in the city. I don't think-- I'm agnostic on the curriculum itself. I think that the problem from what I've seen, which is obviously quite small, is pretty much what always happens in the DOE, which is the implementation of it. Has been poor.

Brian Lehrer: Do you think that it has the potential to be a more effective way to teach math, or is this just like another company with another thing that's new that they're trying to sell and getting school districts to bite? Do you think there's a real potential here to have it be something better?

Audra: I think it does, actually, but I don't necessarily have faith that it will be. I think it has potential to be. In terms of it being scripted, there is key information that is included that the teacher is supposed to hit on. It says like, "Oh, if this is not included in the conversation, make sure that you touch on these points because these are the big ideas." It doesn't say, "You say this, then you pause, then you say that." It's not script in that sense. I do think that the supervisors within the DOE try to make it that. Then there becomes all this minutia and pressure for it to be done in a very specific way that I don't necessarily think the curriculum writers intended.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. How many cookies or cupcakes would you buy for $10? Audra? No, I'm kidding. Thank you very much for chiming in. That was really helpful. Jessica Gould, our education reporter. Next topic. Next story of yours. Governor Hochul's school cellphone ban faces new obstacle. This is Jess's headline, Trump's immigration policies. These are not policies we might think of in the same breath. How do they relate?

Jessica Gould: There's been so much momentum on the one hand for a cellphone ban in schools. It felt like a really progressive drumbeat leading up to the school year this year. Now, we have this other element, which is that immigrant kids are really anxious and their families are really anxious about potential deportations. There is discussion among community education councils and other school leaders that this may not be the right time to institute a full ban on schools. Just to recap, Governor Hochul has proposed in her budget, and it's just a proposal right now up for review in Albany, but to ban phones in schools. What they call from bell to bell from arrival to dismissal, so you could still have it on your commute.

There is so much uncertainty in immigrant communities right now, and particularly in undocumented communities, that there's fear about whether being separated from your phone. What if somebody who's not your parent has to pick you up that day because they've been detained? How do you tell your kid that? What if you need to get in touch with your kid because you're worried about whether there's been ICE at the school? There has not been any federal ICE officials coming to schools in New York City public schools. I just want to be clear about that. That hasn't happened. Teachers and parents tell me that fear is rampant.

Brian Lehrer: Fear is rampant enough that I know, and we've talked about this on the show before, attendance is down from in schools where there are some undocumented families because they're afraid of being picked up there. Your article also notes that 19 states have some cellphone ban during instructional time. Are you aware of any other cities now reconsidering those bans because of fear of ICE rounding up kids by entering school buildings?

Jessica Gould: I haven't heard that yet, but it's certainly very present here. Also, I just want to mention that, so far, attendance, if it's down at all, it's down only minimally across the board from this deep winter time when there are other factors as well that keep kids home.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, good. Because it was reported that in some places, at least there was an attendance--

Jessica Gould: In some places, that's exactly right. That in some schools, it's a much more present problem because of the high number of undocumented kids there. While the overall numbers aren't hugely different, there are parts of the city where there's significant differences. There are certain classes where that people have noticed, the teachers have noticed a real difference in attendance.

Brian Lehrer: Is the governor backing off of her cellphone ban policies, which she wants the state legislature to fund and then require all school districts in New York state to implement in one way or another?

Jessica Gould: She's not backing off. One thing that we've noticed is that the mayor, Eric Adams, has not been a major vocal proponent of cellphone bans. This has been true since last fall. Even before Trump's reelection, the former schools chancellor was pretty hard-charging, pushing for a cellphone ban. Adam walked it back and said, "We're not ready. We have some more review to do." While there's a huge cohort of parents who are super in favor of banning phones in school and teachers and the teachers union, there are also parents who are very concerned about not having access to their kids, particularly in dangerous situations.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, Jess, here are some texts that have come in just to reinforce the reality that people are divided on that illustrative math curriculum we were talking about. One of them says, "I'm a tutor and have experience with this curriculum, a pretty big thumbs down. I find the kids are having a terrible time. A kid with anxiety. If you're a kid with anxiety, it's very bad." Yet we got this one, too. "I'm a parent whose child's school adopted illustrative math a long time ago. We absolutely love it because the curriculum has a lot of parent resources. You can follow along with your child as they go through each unit. I implore parents and teachers out there to be patient with the math curriculum as it does pay off in the end."

Jessica Gould: Yes, I actually wanted to say that the curriculum developer was very emphatic that even when teachers struggle during the first year, it gets better. I'm sure not everyone will feel that way. The same argument is being made about the literacy overhaul. I did want to mention that he said that and so have some teachers that I've talked to.

Brian Lehrer: WNYC education reporter, Jessica Gould. I know it's been a long day for you already. You were helping out with the pledge drive on the air with Michael Hill this morning from six o'clock in the morning. Thanks for staying up late till about a quarter to 11:00 with us.

Jessica Gould: Okay, thank you.

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