Title: A New Leader for Citizens Union

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now we'll talk to two new leaders of the longtime New York City good government group, Citizens Union. Citizens Union goes way back to the days of Tammany Hall in New York City, as a political movement and a political party, now for many decades, an independent, nonprofit, good government group, and analyzes and takes positions on issues, and does endorse candidates sometimes.

This year, the former New York City public advocate, Betsy Gotbaum, now 86, retired from her position as Citizens Union executive director, and she is replaced by Grace Rauh, who some of you may know as a former lead political reporter for New York 1. We've worked together on a number of past political debates and things, and recently, the head of another advocacy group called 5BORO, which has now merged with Citizens Union.

They also have a new chair of their board, another name you may know, John Avlon, the former CNN commentator, author of four books, including ones advocating politically centrist positions or calling out what he called wingnuts in one of his book titles, and he was the Democratic candidate for Congress on Eastern Long Island last year, losing to Republican Nick LaLota, who got reelected. Now they're interested in issues relevant to this year's mayoral race and how to reform future and more. Grace and John, congratulations on these new leadership positions. Welcome back, both of you, to WNYC.

John Avlon: Thank you, Brian.

Grace Rauh: Thank you. Thank you so much, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Grace, why this for you? Why should we care about Citizens Union?

Grace Rauh: Brian, this organization has played just a huge role in the City's history, 127 years as an advocate for open government, transparent government, anticorruption, election reform. As a journalist for many years in New York myself, this was a group that I worked closely with and looked to for guidance and information when I encountered things in my reporting that I knew didn't sit right, and I needed to gut-check it with someone who was on the front lines of thinking about all these issues and how to make our government more transparent, more accountable.

Citizens Union has played that role for a very long time, and I just feel really honored to be able to lead it at this critical and pivotal moment in our democracy, not only nationally, but here in New York. I'm really looking to bring the commitment that I had as a journalist to hold public officials to account, shine a light on government decision-making, into Citizens Union as its next executive director.

Brian Lehrer: John, same question. Why Citizens Union? Why should people care?

John Avlon: Because I think if there's ever been a time that New Yorkers need to ensure we are combating corruption, that we're uniting as citizens across all our interesting differences to insist on honest and accountable government and fair and open elections, it's right now, and I think we need to build a broader, new reform era in New York right now. With all the clouds of corruption around City Hall, declining voter participation, we need as citizens to feel empowered.

Rather than sort of drifting into this sense that democracy is in decline or the City's in decline or our state's in decline, we need to push in the opposite direction, and that's best done through organizations and collectives like Citizens Union, which for over a century has been fighting for reform, and I've been on the board for two decades. I was honored to step in when Randy Mastro moved on as chairman, and I think bringing Grace on board as our executive director marks an exciting new chapter.

It's a generational change for the organization, and that's one of the reasons we're so focused on not only this year's mayoral and all local elections, but larger reforms on the City and the state, from pushing for open primaries, which I think would be a game-changer for the City, to moving to even your elections, which needs to go through Albany, all to the end of increasing the vitality of our democracy so people feel empowered.

Brian Lehrer: I want to get into both of those issues with you because that's one of the reasons we invited you on in your new positions, because of those things that might be on the ballot for New York City voters this November, moving to even-year elections. Of course, this is an election year for New York City Mayor and other city offices. 2025, it's the year after the presidential election, and that's always how the cycle works.

The next presidential would be in 2028, the next mayoral in 2029, et cetera, as well as the open primary. We will get into all of that. John, I wonder if you also feel, having come to some degree from journalism like Grace did, if you feel like bringing a journalist's eye or sensibilities to a good government group is something particularly valuable.

John Avlon: I do, I do. Well, I think to some extent, it's a happy coincidence that Grace and I both have backgrounds in journalism. It provides a continuity of perspective. We both believe deeply that sunlight's the best disinfectant. We both believe deeply that you need to be an effective advocate, that you need to make the important stories interesting, and part of Citizens Union's mission is also having an educated citizenry so that people are engaged and feel empowered, and that's about advocacy, but also effective storytelling.

I do think that, actually, our background is journalism, and I've always believed that journalism and public service engagement in politics is two sides of the same coin. While they're to a degree, in tension, it's because you give a damn about your city and your state, because you care about civic issues, and this is a way to weigh in really directly as opposed to indirectly. I think the combination is powerful, and it means the throw weight of Citizens Union will be, I believe, greater than ever before and more relevant than it's been.

Brian Lehrer: John, I'm going to-- Oh, go ahead, Grace.

Grace Rauh: Oh, just a quick addition. I also want to highlight what's really exciting about bringing the 5BORO Institute into Citizens Union as well. This is a relatively new public policy think tank that was launched in 2022 and has been doing policy research and developing policy reform proposals for the City, but this really creates a bigger tent civic home for New Yorkers by marrying the accountable government work of Citizens Union with the idea of the need for an effective government that is addressing the needs of New Yorkers. We're bringing those two together under Citizens Union, which I think also is really exciting about this moment of change.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, you answered the question I was about to ask, which is, what is 5BORO, the group you were running that has now merged with Citizens Union? Because I kind of lost track of you after you left New York 1, and now I see you were running this other good government group. Tell us a little bit more about 5BORO and what you think it brings to this merger.

Grace Rauh: Sure. We, over the last three years, have been doing policy research, developing reports to make our government more effective, to create more housing, more affordable housing, to boost civic engagement, to improve access to child care, lower costs for families, really all part of an overall effort to improve quality of life for New Yorkers. This organization launched at a time when the City was coming out of the pandemic.

All sorts of naysayers were writing off the future of cities in general, but also New York specifically. We put together an incredible coalition of New Yorkers who said, "We believe in New York. We believe that its brightest days lie ahead, but we want to come to the table not just to point out what's wrong, but to roll up our sleeves and help solve some of the biggest challenges." I think there is such common ground between the mission and focus of 5BORO and the work of Citizens Union. We are excited to continue that work to improve the quality of life for all New Yorkers under the Citizens Union umbrella.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take some phone calls for Grace Rauh, the new executive director, and John Avlon, the new board chair of the good government group, Citizens Union. 212-433-WNYC. It can be about the group. It can be about them. It can be about the two issues that might be on the ballot for New York City voters this fall, that they want to center open primaries and moving which year the mayoral and other New York City office elections take place.

212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text. Before we get into those particular possible ballot proposals, John, some of our more progressive listeners might have had their eyebrows raised when you mentioned Randy Mastro's leadership position in Citizens Union. I know you ran as a Democratic Party candidate for Congress last year, but you've also got this long history and being kind of a middle-way or centrist or moderate or however you want to characterize yourself, commentator.

Knowing Mastro's history with Giuliani, with Chris Christie, now with Eric Adams as he has moved to the right, is Citizens Union a center-right think tank in any way? People might be wondering.

John Avlon: No, no, no, no. I think that's pretty inside baseball, but look, Citizens Union is and has always been welcomed members of the organization across the political spectrum. We are united as New Yorkers not because of political affiliation, and that's where the real strength comes in. If you go back and I am a proud believer in the vital center and a radical centrist, and I think we do need a new era of reform in New York.

We need to make sure that we're pushing forward reforms that make sure we've got representative elections with high turnout to make sure we've got representative results so that our politics aren't hijacked, but if you go back over the history of Citizens Union, I'm also a part time historian, as you alleged, as you mentioned, I think the history is pretty cool. It's not just citizens standing up in a time of Tammany Hall to combat corruption and, at that time, one-party rule. Citizens Union helped elect a mayor, Seth Lowe, in the early days of our organization. Because of fusion voting, we helped elect Mayor Fiorello La Guardia.

Brian Lehrer: Right. 100 years ago, I was going to say. Go ahead.

John Avlon: Yes, 100 years ago. Again, history nerd and maybe taking a little bit of prerogative, but Fiorello La Guardia, who was, who was running on the Republican and socialist lines and who famously said there's no Republican, Democrat, or socialist way to clean a street, so that history just consistently fighting for good government without fear of favor and recognizing that a Republican crook is as bad as a Democratic crook, to quote Grover Cleveland and go real deep cut on you. I think that's the right attitude. I think that's what people want to see. That's what we need to see right now, and that's what Citizens Unions stand for, and that's what I deeply believe in.

Brian Lehrer: I didn't mention it in the intro, but John has written books on Washington and Lincoln and was a commentator in the History Channel series on Thomas Jefferson, so some of that historian context and historian credit for him. With John Avalon, the new board chair of, and Grace Rauh, the new executive director of the New York City good government group, Citizens Union.

John, let me stay with you for just a minute, and I wonder if you would do a little post-race analysis of why you lost to LaLota on Long Island for Congress and put that even in national context, if you think it belongs in national context, but we know that Long Island has been drifting to the right in recent elections.

John Avlon: Yes. I'm proud of the race we ran, and our theme was always sort of common ground over chaos, and the reason I left CNN to run is I was so concerned about the stakes of this election for our community and our country, and the results have borne that out, I believe. We ended up running two points ahead of the top of the ticket. Kamala Harris in the first district, which goes from Huntington to Montauk, and I live in Sag Harbor, and we got more votes than any of the recent Democratic candidate.

What we saw, and this I think is a national story as well as a local story, is that late breaking undecideds and occasional Republican voters turned out for Donald Trump in much higher numbers than occasional Democrats, and I think that was about the middle class squeeze that was compounded by the affordability crisis and inflation that created a lot of anger and disaffection that I think Democrats need to take responsibility for.

There was frustration about the border, which I think had to do with a sense of a fourth border being unfair and people being undercut, and there's a lot of learnings to be done in terms of Democrats reconnecting with independent voters. Regionally, New York and New Jersey had the biggest per capita move towards Donald Trump. We need to deal with that and understand why that is.

I think I think the center left needs to be a reformed force in our politics, much more aggressive about that. I think we need to understand why red state economies are beating blue state economies, and that creates that. That's something we need to really drill down on, but it really was about presidential turnout trends to drive election results, particularly if you're a challenger.

Incumbents can sometimes outweigh that over time, but as I've learned, it really is about the larger cycle, and the larger cycle broke in the late innings, contrary to a lot of public polling and private polling towards Donald Trump. We need to take the right lessons for that. I think the pendulum is going to swing back, but the dangers to our democracy are as urgent as I feared.

Brian Lehrer: Grace, do you see a national context for Citizens Union, even though it's a New York City-focused, good government group, given the vast changes that are being pushed from Washington?

Grace Rauh: Absolutely. I will say, and this is just anecdotal, within the last few months since President Trump took office in January, there are New Yorkers all across the City who are having conversations about the strength and stability of our democracy and our democratic institutions and are deeply concerned about what they're seeing in Washington, have a lot of angst, and aren't sure what to do with that energy and where to place it, and I think that context for our work locally is so critical.

It means that we have an opportunity here to engage with a much broader coalition of New Yorkers who care about making sure that we have strong and effective democratic institutions in New York City and state and, and want to help, and then in terms of the election reforms that we've been talking about, like open primaries, there is an appetite to find ways to boost civic engagement and election turnout.

We know that the status quo is not working. We have seen steady declines for decades in turnout for New York municipal elections. It's not acceptable. We can't have the mayor of the biggest city in New York selected by a fraction. Below 10% of the electorate at large has been who is choosing the mayor of New York City, so adopting a reform like open primaries, which we may have the opportunity to do later this year, would really democratize the entire system.

We're seeing younger voters who are less inclined to join a political party. They are effectively disenfranchised by the closed party political system. There's a lot that we can be doing to engage with the public, and I think the backdrop of what's happening nationally is very much in play here and affecting people's desires to get involved.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a concern about open primaries from a listener who texts, "I'm all for moving the year of mayoral elections, but please explain your point of view on open primaries. Would it weaken the Democratic Party?"

John Avlon: No, I think it actually would strengthen our democracy as well as the Democratic Party. Here's the problem. We've got a million New Yorkers, over 20% of the electorate who are registered independents, or blanks, in the kind of condescending parlance of the Board of Elections. That number is growing at a time where Democratic registration is declining, and Republicans have flatlined.

If you look at who's an independent in New York City, it's over 50% of independents are under the age of 40. That's disproportionately in communities of color. Democratic Party not having access to those voters makes them less able, I think, to be responsive from the early days of a campaign to the concerns of that community. You want to open the aperture. People running for mayor need to be communicating to the broadest array of voters because that's who they're going to represent.

As a practical matter, that helps keep the parties more competitive, but it also makes the election more representative and, for the strength of democracy, as Grace was pointing out, representative elections have representative results. That's good for stability and legitimacy, and it stops. We've seen, and by the way, New York's the outlier here. 80% of American cities, large American cities, have some form of open primaries or nonpartisan elections.

Studies show it leads to less extreme folks representing, so all that is very good, and I think we need to recognize that this is an opportunity for us to take the power back, as it were, that change begins at home, and we need a strong, vibrant democracy. When you have elections decided by under 10% of registered voters, that leads to apathy and alienation. That's the last thing we need right now.

Brian Lehrer: Grace, on the other part of the proposal that might be on the ballot for New York City voters in November, moving the year of the mayoral and other city elections off the odd-numbered years that they're on now, like 2025, onto an even-numbered year, I understand the main argument. It's because there's a low turnout. There's nothing else on the ballot.

In a presidential election year, for example, there's always the highest turnout because that's the marquee race in the country, so people turn out in those years. The thing that I wonder about, in contrast to that, Grace, goes to a way that you and I have actually worked together in the past, since we were involved in covering, when you were at New York 1, previous mayoral elections and being involved in previous mayoral debates, and that is in the cycle for media coverage.

In 2024, for example, last year, we would have had to devote so much time, as we did to the presidential election. Of course, the even years are congressional elections at the same time, and some of the even years are also gubernatorial elections. I look forward to these years, like 2025, the year after the presidential election, where we can devote so much time to the two local elections that take place in this odd year: New York City mayoral and New Jersey gubernatorial. I don't know. Maybe something would be lost, though I definitely see your argument.

Grace Rauh: Oh, we need more political reporters, Brian, [laughter] and a stronger media ecosystem, which I think is just a hugely important pillar within our democracy writ large, but yes, there is more going on politically when everything is happening in the same year, but we know that the status quo isn't working. I continue to go back to that. It's not just that we have low--

Brian Lehrer: In terms of turnout?

Grace Rauh: Yes, in terms of turnout, and it's not just low turnout, which is true; it's these year-over-year declines. The trend has been moving steadily in a downward trajectory over the last several decades, so the public has made it clear just in their decision not to show up at the poll for whatever reason that they are tuning out, they're disengaging, and they're coming out in much larger numbers during those national election years.

It is a much more diverse group of voters who are turning out in those presidential election years. Right now, the off-year elections tend to draw older, whiter, wealthier voters. It's not a representative sample of New York City at large, so I think we very much need to look at this and advance it as a way to really boost civic engagement in the City and in those down-ballot elections.

I think this is a straightforward way to do it. We predict there would be an immediate boost in terms of turnout. Not that this is the leading reason why, by any stretch. There's a cost-saving measure, of course, if you don't have these off-year elections that you're putting on. You could argue this is a time when people are really tuned into what is happening politically, not just nationally, but locally, and that that would be a net positive overall.

John Avlon: Let me just add to that, Brian, if I could. In the '70s and '80s, New York City mayoral elections had over 50% turnout routinely. It hasn't been above 30% since 2009, and I think that alone, we know that when you move elections to even years, it doubles or even triples turnout, so that's just a game-changer. If it were done in a gubernatorial year, I think that the presidential election atmospherics would not overwhelm it at all, but people would be able to focus and be able to keep two different races very much in mind that are hugely impactful and depend on one another.

For all those reasons, double to triple the turnout, declining turnout in municipal elections, and the cost savings, understanding that the charter vision is examining this and open primaries together, I think it would be a game-changer, but this particular piece, then there's an alternating component, but judges have said this can go forward. I think there's a lot of upside, and I think it's not about competing with the presidential. I think putting in a gubernatorial year itself would have a dramatic effect.

Brian Lehrer: Before you go, I mentioned in the intro that Citizens Union does endorse candidates, and we're getting a call about an endorsement that you made recently in one of the City Council races. Marvin in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Marvin.

Marvin: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. Thank you and your tremendous staff for one of the most important programs on the air. It's good to see Grace Rauh back in a prominent position. One of the things Citizens Union did, which I think was a great move, is endorse Maya Kornberg for the City Council from District 39, and I would like to hear a little bit more of why you decided to endorse Maya instead of the incumbent candidate and how you think that would help the work of Citizens Union in terms of promoting better, more transparent government.

Brian Lehrer: Marvin, thank you, and we should mention that the incumbent is Shahana Hanif. I think I have the right race, so some progressives are not going to be happy with that endorsement by you of her opponent.

John Avlon: [laughs] Well, look, you can't please everyone, and you'd be a fool to try. We prefer people in the primary from across the political spectrum and have supported Frank Morano, a Republican in Staten Island, but yes, this race, Citizens Union and our Local Candidates Committee, which is membership-driven, came down on the side of Maya Kornberg. Look, what was particularly compelling to the board was, I think, her work at the Brennan Center, an esteemed fellow good government group.

The fact that we're attracting a new generation of people into City Council service who've got a broader and different perspective, and incumbents always have a lot to offer when it comes to knowing how the system works, but we do want to make sure that people are coming in with that broader perspective that doesn't simply reflect local politics, but that is ideas-driven and reform-driven, and that's the lens that Citizens Union uses, is where they honor issues of reform as well as records of public service and delivering for constituents.

Good people can disagree about all sorts of different races, particularly when it comes local, but we really felt that she was an impressive young candidate and the fact that she's worked at the Brennan Center speaks to, I think, a reform instinct, and integrity on the issue.

Brian Lehrer: That's Brad Lander's old district in Brooklyn, Park Slope, Kensington, around there. Grace, as we run out of time, why endorse at all? Because I think you've just divided a lot of the listeners to the show, if they live in that district, because that's a hot, competitive race. Why, for you, as a good government group, take on candidate endorsements at all? I guess you're in a different nonprofit category than we are, for example, because certainly, we can't endorse candidates.

Grace Rauh: Correct. Citizens Union has an arm, a (c)(4) arm, that allows it to make political endorsements and preferences in the primary, like we have started rolling out this week. I think if we are going to ask New Yorkers to turn out and participate in elections, it is also incumbent upon organizations like Citizens Union that have the capacity to do deep research and candidate interviews to put forward their preferences and guidance to the electorate.

I don't know if you and I have spoken about it, but many of us, I'm sure you have talked about it, Brian, on your show, have been saddened by The New York Times' decision to no longer make political endorsements in local elections, including the mayor's race. The editorial board decisions of The New York Times had played, historically, a really important role in helping voters to assess candidates and make decisions about who they want to support.

I think the work of Citizens Union in terms of its candidate interviews, the endorsement process, I would encourage everyone to go to Citizens Union's website, where there's not just a rundown of who the preferences are and their names, but each candidate has a really extensive and thoughtful write-up that gives some more color about why the decisions were made. This work is really important, and frankly, we need more thoughtful engagement with the candidates to help New Yorkers, who, as you noted, there's a lot of work to do to get smart on everyone who's running for office this year, so this can just help.

Brian Lehrer: Are you endorsing in the Democratic mayoral primary?

John Avlon: We will, and we will be announcing. We will be announcing next week, so stay tuned.

Brian Lehrer: Stay tuned if you're interested in a Citizens Union endorsement. To John Avlon, the new board of trustees chair, and Grace Rauh, the new executive director of that New York City good government group, thanks a lot for joining us. Congratulations again on your new positions, and we appreciate the conversation.

John Avlon: Thank you, Brian. Thank you for all your great work.

Grace Rauh: Thank you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

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