Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now we'll take a look at how Mayor Adam's Adams's City of Yes plan to fuel housing development is playing out in one neighborhood in Brooklyn. Things are kind of hot in this neighborhood, and it's why we chose it. Although the city council still has a few months to decide on the fate of City of Yes, the proposal is already a factor in a dispute between residents of Windsor Terrace and a plan to build 240 units in that neighborhood. Joining me now with his reporting on the controversy out in Windsor Terrace, Brooklyn, is David Brand, housing reporter for WNYC and Gothamist. Hi, David. Welcome back to the show.

David Brand: Hey, Brian. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Why don't we start with a look at Windsor Terrace for people who aren't from around there, aren't familiar with it. Can you be our tour guide through the neighborhood? What's the current state of housing and demographics in that neck of the woods?

David Brand: Sure. Windsor Terrace is an awesome neighborhood. I mean, it's a lot like row houses, two, three-story buildings. A lot of professionals live there. Income is higher than the median for the city. Very close to Prospect Park, borders Prospect Park. This particular development site we're going to talk a little bit more about is a couple blocks from Prospect Park, also a couple blocks from Greenwood Cemetery. It's really an idyllic neighborhood. The controversy now is that Arrow Linen, a commercial laundry company, wants to develop up to a 13-story building on this u-shaped lot where they currently have parking lot for trucks and their laundry factory. What makes that controversial is the size of the building. It's going to be 13 stories, potentially, in a neighborhood of mostly two, three, four-story buildings.

Brian Lehrer: 13 stories, 240 apartments is the stat that I have. How many would be considered affordable or below market rate?

David Brand: Because Arrow Linen working with the developer is seeking a rezoning, which they need approval from the city council to accomplish, city laws require any new residential development that goes up following a rezoning to include either 25% or 30% of the apartments considered affordable, meaning that the rents are capped for people making a certain percentage of the area median income, so you could choose to do 30% affordable, but for people making middle income, approaching the median income or 25%, but at deeper affordability levels.

Brian Lehrer: Is there a demographic issue in the opposition in the neighborhood? I see the organized group against this proposal has named themselves, "Housing, Not Highrises," and you could understand how the 13-story building going up in a more low-rise area might spur opposition in and of itself. Is this also to any degree that you can tell about lower-income people, maybe more ethnically diverse people, therefore moving in?

David Brand: Well, that's part of it. I think we should take a step back a little bit here because you mentioned at the top, this involves the City of Yes proposal from the mayor. There's a lot of layers here because this proposal would add definitely a larger building to the neighborhood. The opponents of it are saying we need to wait until the mayor's City of Yes plan makes it through the council before we decide on this plan because it could actually end up making it even bigger because the mayor's citywide plan would change zoning rules so that you can add more bulk, or if you add, in exchange for adding more affordable housing, you can add additional height.

That's where the City of Yes plan comes in. Every year it seems like there's one or two rezoning proposals or development applications that bubble up to public consciousness, because I think what they represent or what they say about maybe shifting ideologies in the city or what they may pretend for future development applications in the city or future development, and I think this is really one of those, because, let's face it, the city is in a serious housing shortage. Available apartments, especially available apartments priced below $2,400 a month, there's fewer than 1% of those apartments are available.

Supporters of this plan say this is exactly what we need to add more housing as well as more affordable housing, specifically because of those city rules that mandate a certain percentage be affordable. Opponents of the plan, and there's layers here, but the prevailing opposition says we want housing, but we want these buildings to be smaller, more in the character of the neighborhood, or we want 100% affordable housing. Some people who say that opposition are in good faith. We do need 100% affordable housing. We need more affordable housing across the city.

Others might be not such good faith because a plan to do that isn't really-- May not be realistic to materialize, and so by saying that has the effect of actually blocking any housing plan.

Brian Lehrer: Now, we have opponents and supporters of this calling in. No surprise, almost all our lines are full with people, mostly from Windsor Terrace, who want to weigh in one way or another. Let me make sure everybody has the phone number. 212433 WNYC. 212-433-9692 call or text. We'll start with Annamarie in Manhattan calling in on this. Hi, Annamarie, you're on WNYC.

Annamarie: Hi.

Brian Lehrer: Hello.

Annamarie: Hello. My name is Annemarie Gray. I'm the Executive Director of Open New York. We are a grassroots pro-housing organization with hundreds of members across the city and state and a lot of members who live in Windsor Terrace and have been part of this-- Part of the advocacy for this project. Really we're seeing the top of the Democratic Party has pointed out that we need to build more homes and that many liberal places aren't so liberal when it comes to affordable housing. In Windsor Terrace, really what we're seeing is a small group of well-housed, wealthy folks looking to keep affordable homes from being built in their community by any means, by a lawsuit, by disinformation.

We're also seeing a lot of supporters, especially renters, especially young families, really coming out and saying they want to see this project in their neighborhood. They know that we're in a dire housing shortage and their neighborhood has not added a single unit of affordable housing in over 15 years. This is really important for us to uphold our progressive values.

Brian Lehrer: To you, it sounds like you're accusing those residents of not wanting lower-income people to move in. Is that what you're saying?

Annamarie: Our city is in such a dire housing shortage, and when we see neighborhoods that are-- When we allow folks to dominate the conversation when they say they don't want new homes or you characterize it in ways that means that a lot of new homes aren't going to get built, especially in neighborhoods with resources and support systems, it's really, really important that we all recognize that we absolutely have to be building more homes and more affordable homes.

Brian Lehrer: Answer my question. Are you saying that the opposition is based on keeping new demographics out, or do you accept what a lot of people say, which is no high rises in a low-rise neighborhood?

Annamarie: I think there's a huge amount of bad faith organizing going on here. You have a lawsuit. You have a lot of disinformation. You have booing their neighbors at a community meeting. You have elected officials like Bobby Carroll coming in and really spreading this information about what's possible here. It's really not okay for what for what we need to be seeing happening in the city. It's not in line with a lot of the other neighbors who are actually really trying to be good faith, support, and support a project that is actually going to result in housing getting built, especially much-needed affordable housing.

Brian Lehrer: Annemarie, thank you for your call. There's a supporter of the project. Here's an opponent, I think. Rosemary in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Rosemary.

Rosemary: Hi. Good morning. I just wanted to weigh in on the things that are going on in the neighborhood and a little background information. I have lived in Windsor Terrace for my entire life, 66 years, in a house that my family has lived in since 1915. I raised my family here, so my children are fourth generation in the same home. My grandparents were the second owners of my house. My father was a World War II vet and a motorman for the MTA. My mother grew up on 17th Street, and much of my extended family has lived in this neighborhood for decades.

I'm a retired special education teacher. I appreciate the opportunity to call in and give some context to our neighborhood's battle against spot-up zoning that would see an industrial site rezoned for potentially 19 stories of primary luxury housing. One of the things that has been most distressing about the entire rezoning conversation is the way that people from outside the neighborhood have been making, frankly, offensive ageist and classist statements that lack any basis in the actual history of the neighborhood and the people who live here who I have known for my entire life.

Brian Lehrer: What's your real objection, Rosemary, for you, with the history of your family and yourself and your house, how would you argue that it would hurt you and your neighbors?

Rosemary: We want 100% affordable homes. We don't want a 19-story tower in the neighborhood. That is all 1, 2, 3, 4 family homes and some seven to eight-story homes. Catholic Charities has put an offer on the table to build 100% affordable housing. Their model is that of the Bishop Boardman housing on 8th Avenue in Windsor Terrace. The Catholic Charities has offered to give 100% affordable housing to people who need it. We are not saying you are not allowed to come here. We welcome our neighbors. We love our neighbors. This is an awesome neighborhood. Putting a structure that big is just inappropriate for this neighborhood.

Brian Lehrer: Rosemary, thank you very much for your call. This is WNYC FM HD, NAM New York, WNJT FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are New York and New Jersey public radio and live streaming @wnyc.org. as we talk about the controversy over this City of Yes proposal for a 13-story building in more low-rise Windsor Terrace, Brooklyn, with our housing reporter David Brand. 212433 WNYC but you don't need the number because all our lines are full and our text message stream is blowing up.

David, to the last caller's argument, I think you were saying before in describing the situation around this story that there's some suspicion that those who are saying, no, we need all affordable housing, and if we have developments with all affordable housing, then it can be more of a low rise building. Rhere doesn't have to be that high-rise blight in this mostly low-rise neighborhood. That's what that caller was saying, but if I heard you correctly before, you are saying that there's a suspicion that people, not necessarily the caller, are using that argument as a way just to thwart lower-income people coming in because there's no developer who would build a 100% below market rate building.

It's a way of making sure, or trying to make sure that the whole thing doesn't happen. Did I hear you right? Then to that point, Rosemary, the caller was saying there is a proposal on the table from Catholic Charities to build just that.

David Brand: Yes. There are layers. I don't want to go on here and say, like, everybody opposing this project doesn't want low-income or middle-income neighbors moving into the development because I don't think that's true. That's probably, I'm sure there's an undercurrent of that and some people, that is their stance. Others it's like we don't want to change the character of the neighborhood. We don't want a tall building. Rosemary mentioned it going up to 19 stories. That is what could potentially happen if it's approved and then the city passes that larger City of Yes zoning change that could add additional height or bulk in exchange for more affordable apartments.

The opposition could have the effect of blocking any new housing from being developed instead of just what's allowed as of right there, which I think is three stories. That plan that she mentioned from-- She mentioned Catholic Charities having a plan. A representative from Catholic Charities spoke at the community board hearing the other day to I think, clear the air on that and said that they did meet with representatives from Arrow Linen, the company that owns that property, and asked if they'd be interested in selling, Arrow Linen was not interested.

They want to probably maximize their profits here and work with a developer to upzone even higher than that seven stories. That's why they have this plan for 13 stories. That's the extent of it. It's not like Catholic Charities is banging on the door saying, we want to do this. Let's build 100% affordable. At this point, the plan that's on the table, maybe the plan, and now it's up for the community board, the borough president, and ultimately the city council member and the entire city council to vote on this plan.

Brian Lehrer: A listener writes, the term affordable is ambiguously defined and often not really affordable. At the percentage of affordable and the percentage of affordable to market rate is just not enough. It increases density without actually addressing the issue of affordable housing in a meaningful way. Say again what the percentage of, "affordable units or below market rate units would be in this proposed 13-story building in Windsor Terrace, and affordable to whom? At what income level would that be targeted?"

David Brand: This proposal is for a 244-apartment complex in two buildings on either side of the lot here. Under the city rules, it's called mandatory inclusionary housing. This was a policy passed under De Blasio where any residential project built after rezoning has to include a certain percentage of units with rents capped for middle and low-income renters. There are two options. One option is 25% of the units have to be set aside as affordable housing. Your question, affordable for whom? I think it's a third of them have to be 40% area median income.

At this point, that's about $40,000 for a single adult. I think about 65,000 for a family of three, another third for people making 60% of the area median income. The same thing, 60,000 for a single person, and then another third for people making 80%. Again, 80,000. It's not the poorest of the poor in New York City. There are a ton of people making way less than $40,000, but it is targeting lower middle-income and lower-income people.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Chris in Windsor Terrace, who says a member of the group, Housing not Highrises. Chris, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Chris: Hi, Brian. Thank you very much for taking my call. First, I just want to commend David's reporting as being fair and accurate. It's really important. You had a call earlier from Manhattan who was unfortunately taking up the line that those of us in the neighborhood who are seeking an alternative to the IRO proposal are only interested in keeping people out. I really think it's important if we're going to have a meaningful discussion about this project and about housing in general in New York City that people stick to the facts.

What I wanted to talk about, Brian, is compromise. I was very involved in a dispute in this neighborhood that everybody in the neighborhood is familiar with, which is that Walgreens purchased the property of a key food grocery store about ten years ago. It's an unusually large lot, about a one-acre lot with a big parking lot. Walgreens announced that they just simply wanted to put a giant Walgreens there. The neighborhood was really upset at losing a grocery store, and a bunch of us emerged as a de facto group to talk to Walgreens.

We put forward the notion that turned out to actually be the fundamental and foundational business plan of Walgreens, and that is to co-locate with a grocery store. What we learned, what I learned, and I think this is true in almost any tough situation, is that if you come forth with a compromise that's often taken by the opposition as either disingenuous or weak. Unfortunately, in the Walgreens situation, we had to threaten a boycott in order to get them to come to the table and ultimately compromise and co-locate with the grocery store, which is what they have now, and it's a fabulous win-win situation.

Brian Lehrer: How does this-- Because we're running out of time. How does that apply to this housing dispute in Windsor Terrace?

Chris: We have offered a compromise. Bobby Carroll has offered a compromise from the beginning. By the way, your [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: The local assembly member Bobby Carroll.

Chris: Local assemblyman. The simple compromise is as follows. Arrow Linen is asking for 13, potentially 19 stories. The compromise is seven or eight stories, 100% affordable. It's there, it's feasible, everybody wants it. It's win-win. The Magliocco family that runs Arrow Linen could name the project after themselves. Everybody would be happy. The only competition would be who's going to be in the front row at the ribbon cutting. It's really not complicated. It's not rocket science.

Brian Lehrer: Chris, I'm going to leave it there. Why is that compromise not acceptable as a compromise, David, assuming it's not to the developers or for that matter, to the mayor, I guess.

David Brand: Well, sometimes how these rezoning battles work is that the developer will come in with a project that's larger than they think is going to go through. Maybe there is room for negotiation here. We see that a lot. I did analysis in December about just how many units have gotten trimmed from rezoning applications. That's definitely possible. There's going to be months ahead in this land use process where it could get negotiated down or the number of affordable units could get negotiated up. I think what makes this specific battle more of a microcosm of housing disputes or housing pushes in New York City right now, is that there is a stronger movement of more progressive pro-housing folks.

I think one of the people, that first caller, Annemarie Gray from Open New York is representative of that. They say if we keep hacking away at every single housing proposal in every single neighborhood, we're leaving a lot of housing on the table. What we need now is housing. I'm sorry if that offends people who live nearby because it casts shadows, but we need the housing, and it's more of a citywide issue.

Brian Lehrer: That's what they say, and it is a citywide issue in that other neighborhoods are watching. Because the larger City of Yes initiative from the mayor has yet to be rolled out. This is a microcosm, to use your words. Other neighborhoods, I presume, are watching. We have a caller that we're not going to have time to take from Tribeca, who says historically zoned with low-rise buildings, but they want to build a 900-foot tower. Probably we could take similar calls and stories from a bunch of other neighborhoods.

Just two things real quick. We have about a minute. City council has a lot of power here, right? Usually, the local council member has a yes or no, almost veto or approval. The local council member is Shahana Hanif. Where is she? Do we know?

David Brand: Well, she's not taking an official stance on this proposal. She's open to it. She says she wants it to play out. This lawsuit that the opponents filed a couple of weeks ago was to try to block the land use process from even getting started with a community board hearing. She says she's happy that it's going through. She does say she is definitely opposed to a 19-story plan. One point I do want to make on that City of Yes thing is that is a legitimate argument, a legitimate concern because it does potentially change what comes out of this, but people will also say, well, if we stop the process here and slow down housing while we wait for this other process, then we're just further aggravating the housing crisis in New York.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Just for people very involved in this, I think I see that there will be developments to the story tonight at a community Board 7 meeting.

David Brand: Well, there was community Board 7 meeting last Monday where there was a huge turnout and then they had a follow-up later in the week for additional people who didn't get to testify who did so via Zoom.

Brian Lehrer: I think maybe I got my Mondays mixed up. All right, we will leave it there. David Brand, housing reporter for WNYC and Gothamist, on what's going on in Windsor Terrace and Windsor Terrace residents and others. [unintelligible 00:23:40] thank you for your participation on the phones and on text messages. David, thanks a lot.

David Brand: Thanks a lot, Brian.

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