30 Issues in 30 Days: Working With Albany

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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. Happy Friday, everybody. We have Ken Burns on the show today, the legendary documentary filmmaker. Of course, Ken Burns has another ambitious project ready to roll out. It's called The American Revolution, and it's pegged to the fact that we are now in the 250th anniversary year of the founding of the United States. This is a 6-part 12-hour documentary on the war, basically the American Revolution, and all the cultural and political and, for many people, personal things around the war. Ken Burns coming up on The American Revolution.

Then at the end of the show for this Halloween, we're going to have a call-in for your political costumes or pop culture costumes that reference something current. On the political ones, I was talking to somebody off the air this morning who said she's going mostly by putting on a red beret. If you're in New York City, I think almost everybody listening right now will know who she's going as. We'll get to your calls with your Halloween contemporary pop culture or political costumes later in the show.

We begin today with an ending, the end of our election series, 30 issues in 30 days. We made it, and we never even missed a day. 30 straight shows looking away from the polls, which is what most of the other media talk about incessantly, to the many issues in the New York mayoral and New Jersey gubernatorial race. We hope we served a public purpose and maybe even helped some of you make up your minds one way or another in whatever race, plus the ballot questions, which we also took on as some of the 30 issues.

We end on issue 30, getting things done as an issue in the mayoral race, with a particular emphasis on getting either candidates plans through the state legislature which would have the power to pass or kill some of the signature Mamdani proposals, like free universal childcare and free MTA buses and the proposal that would enable them raising taxes on the wealthiest New York individuals and corporations.

Of course, the same would apply to anything Andrew Cuomo wants to do that would require state approval. Working with Albany is basically issue 30. We'll do this as another debate with Michael Aronson from The Daily News editorial board, which endorsed Cuomo based partly on this question, and Eric Blanc from The Nation, who wrote up a possible blueprint for how Mamdani could pressure Albany to enact his agenda.

We'll get to them shortly, but first, I want to replay two clips from just before the primary when I basically put this question to both Cuomo and Mamdani. Now, while the mayor of New York is a powerful position in its own right, working with leaders in Albany is key to successfully governing the city. For Cuomo, I quoted a Crain's New York Business article that said he would encounter headwinds due to his ice-cold relationships with the state lawmakers who he antagonized during his debate as governor.

Cranes wrote, "Lawmakers long accused Cuomo and his aides of engaging in bullying to get their way, a contributing factor in Cuomo's 2021 resignation under threat of impeachment." From Crain's New York Business. I asked, can you convince people that Mr. Mamdani, who is currently in the legislature, wouldn't be more effective for the city up there because of your relationships? This is a two-minute exchange.

Andrew Cuomo: Yes, I think two points. I don't think people are really interested in the interpersonal relationships of who went to dinner with whom the most with the legislators.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, but that's professional relationships. No?

Andrew Cuomo: Yes. I got 11 budgets passed on time within New York State Legislature. I got more done than any governor in modern history with the New York State Legislature. They haven't passed an on-time budget since all those progressive laws that were firsts. I got them done with the Legislature. Do you have to push a legislative body to get things done? Sure you do.

You're not going to find the chief executive who was successful, who the legislature doesn't say he could be a pain in the neck to deal with, but that's how we got things done. Look, as mayor, you're going to have to fight with Albany. You're going to have to. I know this very well. I watched it since I've been 20 years old. The mayor of New York is going to have to say to Albany, we need more. You can't tell us reduce classroom size and then not give us the money.

We need funding for the MPA, et cetera. There is a tension between the mayor of New York and the governor of New York. They have to keep it positive, but there has to be. There is a constructive tension. I'm an advocate for New York City. Mr. Mamdani has been a legislator for two sessions. He only passed three bills. That is probably one of the lowest levels in the entire legislature. In terms of his relationship with the legislature, he did nothing with them.

His politics were too radical for them. It's not that he was part of the mainstream with them. It's not that he was effective as a legislator. He didn't even try be effective as a legislator because as he said in The New York Times, he thinks the job of being a mayor is being a messenger. You know, he's about public relations. These jobs are operating CEO jobs.

Brian Lehrer: That was my exchange before the primary with Andrew Cuomo, and getting proposals through Albany. For Zohran Mamdani. On that same day, after I had quoted a critical, skeptical couple of lines from Crain's New York Business to Cuomo, I quoted State Senator Liz Krueger, Democrat from Manhattan, to Mamdani, who cast his ambitious agenda as well-intentioned non-starters. Largely, she said, "Albany is not going to approve all these tax hikes that he claims we're going to give them."

I noted that Governor Hochul, at least at that time, was quoted saying, "I'm not raising taxes at a time where affordability is the big issue." She has since endorsed Mamdani as the Democratic nominee, but she certainly has not committed to raising taxes. I asked, why not think your campaign agenda is just going to let your supporters down because it's not based in political reality. Here's Mamdani's response. Like the Cuomo clip, this runs about two minutes.

Zohran Mamdani: Brian, many people would have said the same thing about the chances of this campaign when we began. Here we are, just one day away from toppling a political dynasty. I'm confident of our ability to win these new taxes on the most profitable corporations in New York State. The top 1% of New Yorkers make a million dollars or more a year, because I've seen in the Legislature year after year an appetite within the assembly and the Senate to do exactly that, to raise those corporate taxes, to raise income taxes on the top 1%.

Ultimately, I've even gone up against a governor in the past who hasn't wanted to do this, the governor by the name of Andrew Cuomo, who, in 2021, didn't want to tax billionaires and corporations, partially because they're his donors, even to fund the very public schools that he had starved for many, many years.

We overcame his objection. We raised $4 billion in new taxes, and we were able to finally start funding those public schools. Just one additional thing I forgot to answer in your first question, I'm proud to say that I'll be ranking and have already ranked when I cast my ballot, Brad Lander is my number two.

Brian Lehrer: Mr. Cuomo, in his response on the Crain's article, said you've only passed three bills in your four years in the legislature, and that's very low compared to your colleagues. How does that recommend you as somebody who can get agenda items through Albany?

Zohran Mamdani: I'm proud of my experience as a state legislator. I'm proud of having won the most significant increase in operating funds for the MTA in modern Albany history, more than $100 million for better subway service, better bus service, and the first of its kind, fare-free bus pilot, where we saw the exact ingredients of why we need to make every bus in the city free.

I'm also proud of the fact that in my first year in office, I followed through on a commitment that I made to stand up for the thousands of working-class taxi drivers that this city had left behind. That is a commitment I made because I'd seen firsthand through the fathers of my own friends growing up in this city, how our city government had promised a ticket to the middle class through medallions that were being sold at levels that taxi drivers could never pay back.

Ultimately, I organized alongside the New York Taxi Workers Alliance and Senator Schumer for many months, eventually going on a 15-day hunger strike while ensuring that we had the policy push needed to win $450 million in debt relief and finally give back to the very people we pulled out the rug under from.

Brian Lehrer: Now, folks, we've heard Mamdani and Cuomo on this show. That was the day before primary day in June, both of them arguing that they would be better to work the governor and work the state legislature to get their agendas passed. This is issue 30 as we conclude our 30 issues in 30 days election series, who would be better to work their agendas through Albany. Listeners, any new reactions to those clips?

I remember back on that show in June, we were going through a bunch of candidates real quick since there were so many in the Democratic primary at that time, and we didn't take phone calls for them at that time. Now you can react to what you just heard from Cuomo or Mamdani or ask the guests we're going to bring on in a minute a question about getting agendas passed.

212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. You can call, you can text. We already have one text that I'm definitely going to ask right after the break to our guests. We will have the two guests with opposing points of view to discuss this, and you on the phones and on text messages right after this.

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Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now I welcome our guest for this Getting Things Through Albany debate. Michael Aronson, Daily News Editorial page editor. The Daily News editorial board has endorsed Andrew Cuomo in this race. Eric Blanc, assistant professor of Labor Studies at Rutgers, author of several books, including We Are the Union: How Worker-to-Worker Organizing is Revitalizing Labor and Winning Big.

He also writes the newsletter, laborpolitics.com, and on point for this, he has an article in The Nation on this topic called Zohran Mamdani Is Winning the Battle, Here's How He Can Win the War. The war, as Eric Blanc frames it, is getting things through Albany. Eric and Michael, thanks very much for engaging. Welcome back, both of you, to WNYC.

Michael Aronson: Glad to be here.

Eric Blanc: Thanks so much for having us.

Brian Lehrer: Michael, I'm going to start with you, and I'm actually going to start with a text message that came in from somebody listening to those two clips, because if the premise is how to get your things through Albany, listener wants to know, "What are Cuomo's plans?" That's what the text says. "What are Cuomo's plans? All I've seen is him rejecting Mamdani proposals."

I think that's fair, at least for a lot of public perception. A lot of people can say free buses, free universal child care, tax the rich, freeze the rent, which is not an Albany thing. Whether or not they like them, those signature proposals seem to be framing the debate. Can you name Andrew Cuomo, signature proposals that he would try to get through Albany?

Michael Aronson: He says he wants to hire 5,000 more police officers. That's not necessarily an Albany thing unless he's looking for funding. That actually happened when his father was governor and David Dinkins was the mayor, and Peter Vallone was the city Council speaker. Safe city, safe streets in the early 1990s.

Brian Lehrer: Good historical reference there. I'll say early '90s when crime was really high in New York, and they wanted that surge of hiring, and they got money through the state to do it. Yes, that was then. How about now?

Michael Aronson: In terms of his Albany plans, one thing that is facing whoever the mayor is, is a law we opposed setting class size levels. We said this is terrible, and the mayor opposed it. Hochul stalled it for a while, but eventually, they passed it. Now it's in place, and it's going to cost a lot of money. The teachers union supports it, obviously. Cuomo makes the point correctly that Albany made us do this, but they didn't supply the money. He will likely go back to Albany and say undo this law or supply the money.

Brian Lehrer: Again, that's something to undo. I think maybe in fairness-

Michael Aronson: No, no,no.

Brian Lehrer: -trouble with this question.

Michael Aronson: No, no, excuse me.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Michael Aronson: Or supply the money.

Brian Lehrer: To get them to supply the money for the reducing class sizes?

Michael Aronson: For their things all. I think in the final debate, the one that you were-

Brian Lehrer: Co-moderator.

Michael Aronson: -moderators, Cuomo talked about this, that he knows how to deal with the situation in Albany. Obviously, he wouldn't be governor, he'd be mayor. The mayor is a supplicant as opposed to a dominant factor, but the mayor, whoever it is, Lindsay or Koch or de Blasio or Giuliani or Dinkins or Eric Adams, is always seeking things from the state legislature. I don't know, going back 100 years, which Mayor has been the most successful or least successful.

It would be an interesting dynamic because there's never been a governor who has done what, 10 or 11 budgets to be the one, as they say, with the tin cup asking. He knows these players, but he doesn't have those levers of power. Neither would Mamdani. The current mayor, Eric Adams, he was a state senator for a number of years. Did that help him in Albany? Did that hurt him?

Brian Lehrer: What do you think? Did it help him or hurt him in Albany? Because, you're right, he did come out of this legislature.

Michael Aronson: I think he made a lot of not great friends when he was there, and that didn't help him in the end.

Brian Lehrer: That again, could be an argument against Cuomo, as in the Crain's quote that I read to him if people are like, "Ah, Andrew Cuomo, him again," and might even have some payback in mind, why wouldn't Mamdani, who might have better relationships up there, but actually, I don't know, we'll ask Eric Blanc about that as well as you, but why wouldn't that work against Cuomo. Like you're saying it may have worked against Eric Adams, his past relationships in Albany?

Michael Aronson: The leaders of the state legislature both called for him to resign. Stewart-Cousins and Heastie are still going to be the leaders of the state legislature on January 1st should Cuomo be mayor or should-

Brian Lehrer: Mamdani.

Michael Aronson: -Mamdani be mayor.

Brian Lehrer: Mamdani, by the way?

Michael Aronson: I'm not alone. His allies, like Tish James and Kathy Hochu,l messed up the names. Before I got on this call, I was practicing, and of course, it didn't do me any good.

Brian Lehrer: Aren't you making his case? You're saying Andrea Stewart-Cousins and Carl Heastie, the leaders of the two houses of the Legislature, are still there with their frayed relationships with Andrew Cuomo. Fill in the blank.

Michael Aronson: I don't know what happened. The assemblyman was an outlier in the Assembly. He was not a favorite of the leadership. I think he only got one or two bills signed into law. His signature bill to bar New York charities from operating in certain parts of East Jerusalem and the West Bank went nowhere. It's not like he was a master legislator himself. It's disputed whether his insistence on the free bus program not being in the budget, him voting against the budget, it was stripped out. It's not as though he is the person with a great deal of successes in Albany, getting things done.

Brian Lehrer: On that note, I'll turn to Eric Blanc. Eric, I will go back to the question that I asked Mamdani in that previous interview that we excerpted from, and the Liz Krueger quote from then, and the Kathy Hochul quote from them, both about the difficulty of getting a tax hike through Albany, which would underpin the other signature proposals of Zohran Mamdani. Where do you want to start? I know your article in the Nation is kind of a blueprint for how he could get over that. Take us there.

Eric Blanc: I actually want to just say I was very surprised at how hard it was for Cuomo's supporter to make a positive case. I think it really shows the extent to which Cuomo and his supporters are running an anti-Zohran campaign, not a pro-Cuomo campaign. The question of how to pass things in Albany is obviously a crucial one. I don't think it takes a policy expert to understand that if you're going to choose between a candidate who has all of the most important leaders in Albany enthusiastically endorsing you, as Zohran Mandani has.

Just in Queens last Sunday, we had the governor, we had the head of the assembly, and the Senate enthusiastically embracing Zohran, enthusiastically saying we're going to pass these policies. It doesn't take a policy expert to understand that if your goal is to move an agenda in Albany, you're going to want the candidate who already has the active support of the leaders who are going to make that happen. I do think it would be more--

Brian Lehrer: Let me interrupt here because I don't think Kathy Hochul, who is the only one of the three to speak at the Forest Hills Rally, I believe, and we're going to play a clip from that in a minute, but I don't think she committed to raising taxes. I don't think she's changed her position on that. I don't think we've heard from Andrea Stewart-Cousins, leader of the Senate, Carl Heastie, leader of the assembly, that they're ready to do that either, just because they're out of state.

Michael Aronson: I would--

Eric Blanc: I'm going to respond to the question if that's [crosstalk].

Brian Lehrer: Michael, hang on, let Eric respond to the question, then I'll definitely let you back in. Eric, go ahead.

Eric Blanc: Carl Heastie actually has openly called for taxing the rich. In the Senate as well, there's overwhelming enthusiasm for this. On the Hochul question, what you said is correct, she has not come out swinging for tax the rich, although she has started waffling. Her very hard stance of even as recently as a month ago, has really shifted because she sees the mass movement that is around Zohran, and she's seeing the way the political winds are shifting in this state, in this country.

She's not stupid, she's smart. She's reading what it's going to take to get elected. I think that is the reason why it's very realistic to expect that the way this is going to go down is that Zohran and his allies in the assembly are going to push for ambitious proposals, and as is always the case, there'll be some sort of deal and compromise being met. Hochul, who wants to be the child care governor, she's explicitly said that at the rally on Sunday.

She said we are going to make universal child care possible. To make that happen, there's going to be a legislative process in which a deal would be made that would grant a lot of these priorities, not just for New York City, but statewide. Hochul, right now, for her own political reasons, is not going to come out and say, "Yes, I'm for taxing the rich," but I am very confident that these policies will ultimately come into place.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Michael Aronson, Daily News editorial board editor, you wanted to get in there. Go ahead.

Michael Aronson: Just Eric had said enthusiastically, I was chuckling. Hochul is not enthusiastic about anything related to Mamdani. She got up. Yes, she's endorsing him. She's not enthusiastic about his platform of raising taxes. Carl Heastie is no ally of him. Stewart-Cousins, yes, supported him from the outset. One thing we haven't talked about, that's an Albany thing, it's not money is mayoral control of schools.

Every mayor since Ed Koch before has wanted some ability to manage the school system, which the mayor has to provide money for. It was finally achieved under Mike Bloomberg, and Bill de Blasio wanted it and Eric Adams. You have a candidate, Zohran, who says he doesn't want it.

Whether Albany would say, "Okay, sure, we're happy to take it away from you," and I guess give it back to the old Board of Education, that would be a very different dynamic. That would be the mayor saying, "I want to surrender an authority. I want to surrender a power. Zohran, help me make it easier to pronounce.

Brian Lehrer: It's okay. Mamdani. Mom, like, everybody has a mom, right? We call her mom.

Michael Aronson: Mamdani.

Brian Lehrer: Ronnie, Ronnie Reagan, Connie, Bonnie, those common girls names, that's my little cheat sheet for anybody who's still having trouble with it, but anyway, go ahead.

Michael Aronson: Doesn't want that authority. When Cuomo was in the other side, he tortured de Blasio, where they give it to de Blasio for a year at a time. We've called for it making permanent, but since the focus of this segment is who can achieve what in Albany, looking at the record as an individual, Andrew Cuomo has achieved a lot more in Albany than probably anyone in the past 40 years. Mamdani has achieved very little in Albany during his, what, five and a half years in the Assembly.

That is a track record. Yes, there's baggage. People were allies, they're opponents, but they all have responsibilities in the assembly, in the Senate. Hochul is looking at her own reelection from the right, with Stefanik announcing any day is going to want to be raising taxes.

She said, "I'm not going to raise taxes. I'm not going to raise taxes. I'm not going to raise taxes." When Mandani says he wants to raise the corporate income tax and taxing high earners, she's going to resist. The other thing, which I think maybe Eric knows, is I believe those two taxes are statewide taxes.

A corporation in Buffalo would pay the higher rate, equal to New Jersey, but would that extra money come to New York City, come to the mayor? A high earner in Rochester, who lives in Rochester and earns in Rochester, and his personal income tax level goes up, would that extra money go to New York City? That's never happened. That you would-

Brian Lehrer: Why would they support--

Michael Aronson: -tax something on a statewide basis and only send it to five counties.

Brian Lehrer: If that's in fact how it's structured, I knew this Kathy Hochul issue would come up from both of you, so I pulled a minute and a half clip from the Mamdani rally in Forest Hills on Sunday, where, as you both noted, Hochul, Heastie, and Stewart-Cousins all appeared. The visual here is Hochul is speaking. She's the only one of the three Albany leaders who did speak, but she's-- Oh, they did speak at the rally. Sorry. I misspoke on that and somehow I misunderstood that fact. I stand corrected on that.

Always willing to be corrected when I miss a fact. Nevertheless, the shot when Hochul was speaking that people saw if they were watching it in a video feed of any kind or after the fact, was the three legislative leaders together. Hochul in the center speaking, flanked by Stewart-Cousins and Heastie. Here's a minute and a half of Hochul speaking, and to what you were both just debating, the crowd, obviously, Mamdani's supporters having a very clear message for her at the same time.

Kathy Hochul: I see in him someone who sees a New York that is affordable because we want to live here. We want families to grow here. We want them to prosper. We need more housing, but you know what? Here's something I can tell you about personally. New York's first mom Governor, we need more child care. [crowd cheers] It has to be universal. Child care for everyone who wants it. Here's what we're going to do.

[crowd chanting tax the rich]

This crowd is fired up.

[crowd chanting tax the rich]

All right.

[crowd cheers]

I can hear you.

[crowd cheers]

I can hear you.

[crowd cheers]

I can hear you.

[crowd cheers]

Brian Lehrer: They're chanting tax the rich if you can't hear it.

Kathy Hochul: My friends, you want to see Zohran or not? Listen, I got one plea for you. I love, I love to see this energy.

Brian Lehrer: She went on from there, Governor Hochul, in what was kind of a cringeworthy moment, [chuckles] as she was supporting, but then not necessarily being supported by that crowd who was chanting tax the rich, tax the rich, tax the rich. Eric, I'm going to throw it to you out of that because I think it relates to the thrust of your piece in the nation, which is all about your call for Mamdani to mobilize or remobilize this movement, which might get him elected next week.

Of course, we don't know how it's going to turn out, but assuming it comes out the way the polls have been, Mamdani would be elected mayor with these tens of thousands of volunteers behind him who've been volunteer canvassers and everything else they've been doing. You're saying he needs that movement specifically to work things through Albany. Make that case.

Eric Blanc: Very happy to. I just want to say it's not that hard to pronounce Zohran Mamdani's name. We should just say it's important for political figures in New York City to get that right. I just want to correct one thing that was said before is that contrary to what Michael suggested, the proposal of Zohran, in addition to the statewide corporate tax, which would just move it to what New Jersey has, the proposal that he's proposing is to have a 2% income tax increase for New York City that would help fund these programs. You need Albany's okay for that, but the money would be going towards making sure that the programs in New York City are funded. Just for what it's worth, Massachusetts, very similar--

Brian Lehrer: Are you saying only for people earning $1 million or more per year who live in New York City, not statewide? That's the proposal.

Eric Blanc: That's my understanding. Someone can correct me wrong, but yes, that's my understanding. Massachusetts just passed a very similar income tax on millionaires, raised $2 billion. This is not pie-in-the-sky thing. This rhetoric and scaremongering is not based in reality. This is just sort of basic good governance. On the question that you asked, which is a really good one about the relationship with mass movements and Hochul, again, I would just say look at all this movement has already done.

Zohran, because he's articulating a vision for how we're make our city affordable, make our state affordable, has been one of the most beautiful movements I've ever experienced in my life. You can't go five minutes walking down New York City or on the subway if you're wearing a Zohran pin without getting a thumbs up or a high five. This enthusiasm has already shifted the political terrain. We're already seeing that the major leaders of the Democratic Party in New York State are endorsing, and frankly for Hochul, that is about as enthusiastic as you get.

People could listen to that. It doesn't get too much more enthusiastic than that. The reality is that this movement is going to continue not just up to November 4th, but after, because there are going to be fights. Look, Zohran can't do it on his own. He's not saying he can do it on his own. You're up against some of the most powerful, richest people in the country and on the planet. To win against those types of powerful elites, you need ordinary people looking at politics not as a spectator sport, but as a-- it's something that they have to jump into themselves. What does that look like?

Brian Lehrer: To Michael's point--

Eric Blanc: It looks like keeping up the pressure, I would just say--

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead. Finish that thought. Go ahead.

Eric Blanc: Sure. It just looks like keeping up the pressure on Hochul so that she doesn't feel like she can just moderate to the center, that she has to pass these policies in order for her to get elected because she's looking and worried about a primary threat. It looks like keeping up pressure, including in the city and state on these other issues, that you're going to need a movement around to stop Trump from snatching away our neighbors, to make sure that the rent freeze happens against Adam's machinations. There's a lot of reasons that we're going to need people organized, and it's not just pressuring Albany.

Brian Lehrer: You're right to mention a primary from the left, which her current lieutenant governor, Delgado, has already announced, but to Michael's point earlier, if it's Hochul versus Elise Stefanik or any other conservative Republican in the general election next year, and they can run as Republicans have in many races to often successful effect around the country, "She raised your taxes."

In this case, "She just raised your taxes." Of course, it would only be on people taking in more than a million dollars a year, but nevertheless, it's not a good look, one would argue, could argue for somebody trying to run against a conservative Republican next year, and so she would be very reluctant to do that. The argument goes. Can you push back on that?

Eric Blanc: I don't think that's true. I think that the way she's going to win is the way Democrats across the country are going to have to win to provide a real alternative to MAGA and the Republicans, and not just a Republican light. You need to pass things that make people's lives better. They need to know about them. You need to run on having successfully made people's lives better.

The idea that we're just going to moderate to the center is a mythical idea at this moment because the reality is so many working-class people across this state, across this country are fed up cause they can't get by. They're struggling. And unless you can speak to that anger and show that you're willing to deliver, then the reality is then the Republicans are going to win on the train that's theirs. Zohran is showing that there's another terrain possible politics.

A politics of hope, not fear. A politics that says, yes, government can make your life better. It's not just going to get worse and worse and worse. If Hochul is smart, and I think she is, she sees where that's going and she's going to cut a deal to make sure that these policies help New Yorkers across the state and in New York City.

Brian Lehrer: Michael, Eric's had the floor for a while. Do you want to come back on any of that?

Michael Aronson: I just don't see it happening that things shift back and forth. The New York State, Trump did better in New York State each of the three times he ran. We never supported him. He's not winning the state, but his absolute numbers and his margins keep climbing. Hochul had a close race last time around against Lee Zeldin, and that shoul Mamdani win, Stefanik is going to be running against him, basically.

Even some Democrats, including the state party chair, are wary of him and are not supporting him. The mayor of New York City wants to raise taxes across the whole state. We still should figure out this corporate tax thing. What's going to happen to a corporation in Albany or Buffalo? Will their extra taxes go to New York City? Or maybe it's only corporations headquartered in New York City. I'm not sure the details. That--

Brian Lehrer: We looked at his platform, by the way, with the uncertainty from a minute ago on taxing the wealthiest individuals. Reading from his platform, it says, "Mamdani will tax the wealthiest 1% of New Yorkers, those earning above a million dollars annually, a flat 2% tax." Then it says, "Right now, city income tax rates are essentially the same whether you make $50,000 or 50 million." That makes it seem like he's talking about the city income tax, which the city does have on top of the state income tax.

Michael Aronson: Then the other part of it is the corporate tax. Since the point of this segment is who would be more successful in Albany, that Carl Heastie has about five or six members of the Socialist DSA caucus, how successful are they? Now, would he be more amenable to some of their requests and some of the future mayor's requests, because he doesn't want his more moderate members being challenged in primaries?

Perhaps, but the ability to get things done in Albany, which is what we were discussing, I think it's not going to be a Scott Stringer, it's not going to be a Brad Lander, it's not going to be Whitney Tilson or an Adrian Adams or a Zohran Mamdani. It's going to be an Andrew Cuomo.

Eric Blanc: Mamdani.

Michael Aronson: There's no disrespect meant. There's been many articles about people getting the names wrong. The more you--

Brian Lehrer: I know. You said you're just having trouble with it.

Eric Blanc: On the policy thing, I just like to say that we have very clear evidence that this can happen. It's not pie in the sky. Just look at how Cuomo, when he was governor, was pressured to tax the rich in 2021. That was a campaign that Zohran and that movement helped push. Against Cuomo's initial reluctance raised $4 billion for our state. Imagine how much further we can go when we have a governor that is actively endorsing this movement. I would just say, again, this is the existential question for Democrats in the city, in the country-

Michael Aronson: Hochul is not--

Eric Blanc: -if we're just going to repeat Republicanism or we're going to provide a real alternative.

Brian Lehrer: One at a time. Eric, finish.

Eric Blanc: The question is whether we're just going to be Republicans led or whether we're going to provide a real alternative. Zohran has already shown his ability to win over many of these voters, working-class voters, Black and Brown voters who voted for Trump because the reality is Trump spoke to their anger and their deep disquiet at the difficulty getting by. Zohran's laser focus on meeting the affordability crisis speaks to working-class people across the city, across the country. Unless we adopt that message, I frankly really worry about the future of our country.

Brian Lehrer: Let's get a couple callers in here before we run out of time. Here is Maria Elena in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC. Hi, thank you for calling in.

Maria Elena: Thank you, Brian. Longtime listener.

Brian Lehrer: Glad you're on.

Maria Elena: Regarding this whole issue of voting, I'm not crazy about Cuomo. I don't particularly like him, but I will have to vote for him because I believe that Mamdani is too young, hasn't a good track record, and he will bring down the wrath of Trump on us. It's like what my grandmother used to. call putting your head in the lion's mouth.

Brian Lehrer: Maria Elena, thank you very much. I think we're going to get a contrasting thought from Judy in Manhattan. Judy, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Judy: Oh, good morning, Brian. Thanks for taking the call. I just want to remind voters what Andrew Cuomo did when he was governor and made this unholy alliance with what was known as the IDC, the Independent Democratic Caucus. Between the caucus and the governor, they managed to prevent any kind of decent progressive legislation getting through the state legislature for a long time until the voters finally threw those people out of office. The screener didn't even know about that. She's so young, bless her little heart, but I'll never forget that, and I'll never forgive him for it. It was awful.

Brian Lehrer: Why would--

Judy: [crosstalk] Andrew Cuomo. Go ahead.

Brian Lehrer: One could argue that it shows that Cuomo was adept as governor at building coalitions, even in that case across party lines, to enact whatever it was that he wanted to enact, even if it was things you didn't like. Therefore, he knows how to be effective up there. Judy, what would you say in response to that?

Judy: That's true, but the fact is what they ended up doing was preventing things that were wanted by the majority of the House. Then we get to the Senate, and everything got stopped. There was a lot of education issues. I was at that time a lobbyist with the teachers union. We would go in there, and it was like banging your head against the wall. You could get nothing, nothing done. I just don't think it was an okay way to behave. That's all. Politically. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much for your call. Eric, I want to get you to react to one more thing that Michael wrote in his Daily News editorial, where the editorial board endorsed Cuomo having to do with getting with what these policies are. I asked him before, and honestly, he struggled with it, to say what Cuomo's agenda in Albany would be. We know some of the marquee signature Mamdani proposals that everybody's talking about, but Michael's editorial calls them narrow.

It says, about Mamdani, "He stumbles and dodges when asked to venture beyond his surface-level focus on affordability, and is for and only for narrow planks. Childcare, buses, rent, and grocery stores." Can you argue that that's not narrow? Because freeze the rent only helps the people in rent stabilized apartments. Childcare is probably the biggest thing, but Michael calls them four narrow planks, rent, grocery stores, buses, and child care. Is it a broad agenda for affordability in New York or is it narrow?

Eric Blanc: It's a great question. I just want to also very briefly respond to the question of the caller about experience. Zohran is not going to be governing alone. He's brought in an all-star team, people like Patrick Gaspard, aide to Obama. Look, so he's not going to be doing this solo. I hear the experience question, but he's got a very competent team being assembled. I would not worry about that at all.

On the Trump question, I don't want a mayor who's in the pocket of Trump. Why? If we want to push back against what Trump's going to do against our city, no matter who gets elected, I think we need somebody in there who's not being actively pushed on the city by that very Trump. Trump wants Cuomo. That should send alarm bells, I think, to anybody who wants to resist what Trump is doing.

On the question of narrowness, I just really don't understand this argument. Who isn't affected by high rents? Who is not affected by the extreme cost of childcare? I'm a parent. We just had to pay over $30,000 per year for our child last year. I've got a union job, I've got a decent wage. It's insane what we're doing to working-class people in this city.

To argue that these types of policies are narrow is just really to miss the moment. There's a reason there's so much enthusiasm around Zohran. That's because so many people see themselves and see their struggles in what he's talking about. I think that's why we're going to win on November 4th and transform the state and the city.

Brian Lehrer: Michael, you want to make your case for the narrowness of Mamdani's planks?

Michael Aronson: It goes back to the debate. You were sitting there. Everyone says the number one problem in New York City is the lack of housing. There are four ballot questions dealing with increasing housing. We say absolutely, vote for them, vote yes, as do many people. Zohran won't take a position. He says it's not part of my campaign. I want to talk about affordability, but he won't take that position.

I hope he's voting yes. That's one more vote for it, but whether it's political tactician, and he's supposed to be a new type of person, he's open, he's honest. What's your position? People have been asking him for months. You were on the debate panel. The audience started booing him. The two other candidates were heckling him. Errol Louis was saying, "Okay, you're not going to answer." That affects everyone. Housing in terms of-- I used to have a rent-stabilized place, as did Cuomo, as does Zohran now.

We did do rent freezes under de Blasio, three or four years, it didn't make more available housing. Eventually, those rents go up because costs need to be maintained by the landlord. He's run a very disciplined, focused campaign. He's likely to win. That's clear. Not for certain, but when he's mayor, he's going to have to address all these things, and he can't just say, "Well, I want to talk about rent-stabilized apartments and I want to talk about child care and I want to talk about buses."

It's like you got to talk about schools, which he doesn't want to control. You got to talk about housing, which he doesn't want to take a position on the ballot measure. You got to talk about there's a water main break, all these things which aren't on his four planks. The word narrow is, yes, they're broad enough, but there's a lot of things, you know, how about mental health, how about education, how about police matters, how about jobs in the economy?

He's run a very disciplined campaign. That's why he's ahead. He's an enticing, exciting candidate, but he's going to have to be mayor, and he's going to have to get things done in Albany as well as the city. Back to the segment purposes, he has a very minimal track record in Albany.

Eric Blanc: Can I just--

Michael Aronson: As to whether Hochul will go along with him, we'll see on January 1st, should he be elected mayor.

Eric Blanc: Can I briefly respond?

Brian Lehrer: We're just about out of time, but I will note that Michael got the first word in this exchange in this segment, and so Eric, you're going to get the last word. Go ahead.

Eric Blanc: Sure. I'd just like to say that it's just not true that Zohran does not have policies on all of these questions. People can just look at the website, go to zohranfornyc.com, and so on. All of the slew of questions you mentioned, there is a position and a plan. On housing, Michael, that's just not true that he is only talking about freezing the rent. He has a plan. You can look how it will be financed.

It's very feasible to triple the amount of affordable housing constructed in the city. That's going to impact not just people who are currently rent-stabilized, but very large numbers of New Yorkers. Just more basically, this is a question for whether this city is going to remain affordable for working-class people, for everyday New Yorkers. Zohran has captured people's imagination because he's offering a vision of hope.

He's offering a vision that is going to make people's lives better, just like we did in the 1930s, in the depression. Our best mayor was faced with the same criticism. You can't do it. La Guardia came in and he showed the rest of the country how the city can lead, and it showed the country how government can make people's lives better. That's how he got out of the depression. I think Zohran is going to do this now for the whole United States.

Brian Lehrer: Eric Blanc, assistant professor of Labor Studies at Rutgers, author of several books, writes the newsletter laborpolitics.com and has an article in The Nation on this topic of getting his agenda through Albany called Zohran Mamdani is Winning the Battle. Here's How He Can Win the War. Michael Aronson is the Daily News editorial page editor. The Daily News endorsed Cuomo in this race partly on the strength that they see of Cuomo as more qualified, more ready to get his agenda through the state legislature. Thank you very much for engaging. Thank you both for being with us today.

Michael Aronson: Glad to be here.

Eric Blanc: Thanks for having us.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners. That is our 30 issues in 30 days election series. This has been issue 30 on getting things through Albany as an issue in the mayoral race. Again, I hope that we've enlightened you on some of these 30 issues as we've tried to take a good-faith approach to digging in on the issues, not just the polls on this show, day after day, for the last 30 shows in a row.

 

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